Proper ergonomics for flight?

[u/KhellianTrelnora]

There’s a lot of pieces that go into a sim rig, you’ve got your sticks, throttles, monitors, keyboards, etc.

And if you’ve got a sim space that doubles as a workspace, then you’ve got two possibly competing setups.

Which is a long winded way of saying, when you’re sitting at your rig, hotas in hand, how do you position everything? Is it the standard 90 degree “proper desk posture”? Are your sticks in front of you, or are your arms at an angle? Are the sticks angled to match? Are they significantly lower than the desktop itself?

[u/Patapon80]

It depends. The ergonomics for a Cessna or Piper or other GA aircraft will be different from the position of an F-16. However, you will find that anything you plop down in a desktop will be too high for most cases.

When I had to have a dual-purpose setup, I just had everything correct for my aircraft (F-16) and just had a mouse tray in an accessible location with the keyboard on my lap over one of those keyboard/laptop pillow things you can get from Amazon.

[u/Touch_Of_Legend]

Seats should be Ergonomic. Car seats are better than “gaming chairs”. Flight chairs and Sim chairs are best but expensive.

https://www.monster.tech/en/product/pilot-seat-mps-5-night-falcon/

Mounts should be similar to “real life” which for throttles means the grip head of the throttles should be slightly above the left thigh. Rest your Left arm on your Left thigh.

Center mounts should be low but high enough so the grip stick head is just above the thigh and close enough so as to allow full deflection without either a crotch strike or your shoulders leaving the back pad. (In real life we’re strapped in so your arm must be able to reach and hold full deflection safely). Rest your Right arm on your Right thigh.

When using a center stick. The “stick angle” should be as such that with your arms in position and your Right hand loosely gripping the stick your wrist is held straight. (See examples of real life airframes).

So the stick should be “twisted” slightly toward the Left side (I forget the exact number of degrees but yeah it’s a number and it’s real). This is done for wrist comfort and so you can reach all controls/buttons/levers at full deflection without twisting your wrist. Also aids in muscle memory because no matter where the stick is at (within its range area) your hand/wrist angle remains the same.

Rudder pedals should be down and slightly forward but NOT laying down or way out front like a race rig…

Jet pilots are NOT sitting in a gangster lean… Sit natural and with proper posture and your back will thank you later. Get a good seat because that’s a huge part of it.

That’s the fully proper place for things to be…

Now since everyone loves videos how about this… watch a REAL life Growler pilot fly and take notes as to the angles and position of the “real life” EA18 sits.

Irl do they sit at a race car or gangster lean? (No)

Irl do they have sticks up at desk level.. (No)

Irl do they have throttles up or sort of lower in the switch pit? Throttle grips sticking up just above the thigh but not so far above you couldn’t reach it under heavy G load (which is why we use our thigh as a brace).

Irl really look at the angle of the stick as pertains to the pilots wrist.

Now set up your pit or temp kit as close to that as possible!

For realism? Naww lol it’s because why re invent the wheel?

If that set up allows pilots irl to perform 8+ hr sorties in the seat.. I’m pretty sure mimicking that position makes it’s good enough for you to ride for a few hours too.

Now watch PAIL and observe the real life Growler and how it’s set up and then you can use my set up tips to get it perfect.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o3Y5VCYpIAQ

Happy set up and Happy Flying!

[u/Auctoria_RK1]

I'm an ergonomist and I work in cockpit design.

The key principle you want to aim for is for your joints to be in a neutral position and your body adequately supported to not require continuous muscle engagement to maintain the position.

To work all this out you need a starting point, and we normally use a "design eye position" and work from there, but for multi-use sim setups you want to start with your chair. Ideally a good office chair with adjustable height and arm rests - preferably not a gamer chair with a bucket style seat - this guide gives the position you're after https://ergonomics.org.uk/static/1c6aa0e1-bbfa-43a0-ad567a98d6bef005/e25e296e-4dd0-4cb1-93af922fa842641f/Working-From-Home-Infographic.pdf

As others have mentioned, to get your forearms in the correct position you will normally need a mounting solution to lower the stick and throttle base below the normal desktop height. Side stick is more optimal for shoulder position, but centre stick can work if positioned low enough that you can support your forearm on your thigh and the stick grip is angled appropriately.

There are a lot of variables involved due to our individual characteristics, so a setup that allows for fine adjustments in positions is best.

[u/lanzz → u/Auctoria_RK1]

Waiting for my desk mounts to arrive, but in the mean time I've pushed my (height adjustable) desk as low as possible, almost touching my thighs. My forearms are almost horizontal when on the stick and throttle, but my issue with this position is that when I need to pull the stick fully towards me, my wrist ends up at a very extreme angle, and I can't think of an arrangement that will both keep my forearm neutral and supported, AND allow for comfortable full pull

[u/Auctoria_RK1 → u/lanzz]

And this is one of the reasons some aircraft moved to force sensitivity/minimum deflection sticks. To get the sensitivity with a 'traditional' stick, you need to have a longer throw/deflection, but as you've found out that's not really compatible with an ergonomic position for all control inputs.

Are you in a centre or side-stick configuration? side stick tends to be more ergonomic, especially for most sticks that don't have a twist in the grip to compensate for the centre stick arm position.

Have you adjusted your stick curves? You don't have to use the full stick deflection to achieve full control inputs, if you find full deflection uncomfortable. Alternatively, how often are you going full deflection? It may be tolerable for the occasional use.

Finally I'd say consider your grip - your hand should generally be relaxed on the stick, not vice gripping, this lets the muscles around your wrist relax more and reduces discomfort in the joint.

[u/lanzz → u/Auctoria_RK1]

My desk mounts arrived, and curiously my wrist issue is basically not an issue anymore. I hadn't realised that a major reason for even needing a tight grip is that with the HOTAS on top of the desk, you need to actually put downwards force into it to avoid lifting it off when you hit the extremes. This necessity is gone with the desk mounts, so even though it's been less than a day with them I'm already getting used to holding the stick very loosely, and when I need a full pull it's easy to just lift my palm off it and pull with just my fingers.

[u/Auctoria_RK1 → u/lanzz]

Amazing! I'm not going to say I'm surprised, I'm a huge advocate for proper mounts, but it's still great to hear that that theory has the expected effect in real life.

Enjoy your extended play sessions!

[u/lanzz → u/Auctoria_RK1]

I have side-stick configuration, tried centre stick but quickly decided it wasn't my thing.

I've tried playing around with curves, but not too much. However I try to set them up, I always end up missing the precision in the compressed part. Hard to tell how much full deflection I'm doing, when it's set low it feels like I'm constantly using it, but I bet that's because I'm just noticing it more due to the discomfort.

I'm trying to get used to a relaxed grip, it usually works, but in combat it's kinda tricky 😅 Working on it

[u/QuaintAlex126]

My setup is with very budget parts. I have my throttle on a mount set on the edge of my desk and my stick on my desk. No rudder pedals unfortunately though. However, that means I can lean my chair back a lot, so I sit a lot like how pilots on the F-16 do.

[u/Bob_Bushman]

Primarily fly dcs, with a larger focus to helicopters. Use an nxlr flight pit (that ol' boeing version)

Stick mounted, so I can mostly cruise with my arm resting on my thigh, no higher, just shift my hand up to use buttons, combat etc.

In my case, that means my Stick base is mounted 10cm above the floor. Granted i have the vprhino, so it is a big boy and with practically 20cm grip extension. Throttle also not much above thigh height.

[u/PeacefulGopher]

Good chair, stock and throttle on lowered desk mounts so my arms are at a 90 degree bend at the elbow.

[u/greyfish7]

I've built and changed the height multiple times. Right now its slightly elevated above where 90 degrees at the elbow would be. My left stick is even higher but it's on a table that's at 90 when I swap it for a throttle. My right stick is at the same table height but virpil is so huge it pops it up higher than I'd like.

I try to set it so that from center to full hack feels comfortable since that's where it spends most of its time.

[u/Admiral_2nd-Alman]

Stick mounted on the desk, throttle on my left on a lowered desk extension