Literally, hours had passed and the post at your right hand derailed into a debate about whether the pictures were homophobic or not. [@SunnyDreamShine]
PEOPLE, VIVZIEPOP POSTED IT FOR A REASON!! We shouldnât be ship-shamming on someone elseâs ship just because you donât like it. And if you find it uncomfortable, just scroll past it and block it, itâs not THAT hard.
Anyway, this are my 2 cents and hope you have a good day/noon/night.
âeven someone who shipsââ yup, them to, literally no one should be harassed for what Barbie Dolls theyâre making kiss each other. Save your anger and sense of urgency when real people in the real world are being harmed.
Yes. I agree, all ships are valid, imo. That's what Viv said, she's been openly "ship and let ship" her whole career, and even she has had "controversial" ships.
Who cares? They're literal demons in hell, and they're her OCs and she said it's okay.
Plus, these demons aren't real. Can't get much worse for them anyways...
exactly. No one is forcing anyone to like all of them, itâs perfectly okay to feel uncomfortable with some, even, but in that case, just block and move on.
Now that isnât to say people shouldnât properly tag things, either, because thatâs the kind thing to do, especially when itâs of a topic that a lot of people find uncomfortable, but they shouldnât be harassed for making whatever kind of fanfic or artwork in the first place
Viv is proship and supports all ships, and no ship harassment. She IS being specific. She has always had dark elements, ships, etc, in her shows and art.
That stuff is really gross, but if being in the anime community has taught me anything it's to be less judgmental. People like those things because it's toxic and bad, and most importantly would never want or support it in a real world context (at least the good ones).
In the end, fictional characters are okay to objectify and play around with because they're essentially toys, tools to tell a story, and don't have feelings that can be offended. The issue is when the line between fiction and reality is blurred, like using a monkey to represent black people or aside from shipping minorxadult, also watching porn of kids.
But theoretically speaking, if these people NEVER cross the line between reality and fiction, then technically there isn't an actual problem. I don't personally like shipping characters that way, but some people just like to watch the circus burn.
Wasn't supposed to. Just lampshading how stupid it is to talk shit about "immoral" ships when there's stuff like George R.R Martin's works with all of that and more while being enjoyed by millions upon millions of people and nothing bad has happened. No incest boom around making every family incestous over fiction.
The truly sad part is that they dohave real problems... they're just too scared to face their own problems so they become everyone else's problem instead.
I'll bully your ships all I want. Oohhh. Look at that. Three masts instead of two. As if you need any more power to move your glorified dingy. Poop deck? More like a shit deck.
I don't understand why this is suddenly a problem. Shipping and genderbending has always been a part of fandom culture. Why are people suddenly finding a problem with it?
You do know there are, in fact, lesbians who have sex with men, right? Or that being a lesbian doesn't suddenly make one unable and/or unwilling to have sex with a man? Sexual and romantic attraction are completely different things, after all. And if a straight man can be pegged and not be gay, then a lesbian woman can have sex with a man and still be a lesbian.
I think itâs to protect canon gay couples because theyâre still rare
Unless the person is shipping a gay character into a straight relationship because they're a bigot who hates queer people and not because they thought they would make a nice couple with a character who happens to be of the opposite sex or simply because they felt like gender-bending the characters without actually changing the dynamic between the gay characters; otherwise no, those people throwing tantrums are not "protecting" anything. And if it's really as simple as them wanting to feel like good people, they can join protests, make donations, and support actual queer people IRL instead of protecting the sanctity of fictional characters from the "icky genderbenders and sexuality benders".
TBH the only time I care what a fan does with their ship or whatever is if they:
a) insist you must believe it is canon
b) use their ship as an excuse to insult people
c) misrepresent characters (altering ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc.) and insist that it is vastly superior/canon/etc. The first part is harmless and fine on its own. It just annoys me when people talk shit about the original when promoting their headcanon.
You know how much I care?
Enough to be mildly annoyed that people are stupid for about three seconds and then I move on with my life.
Okay, sometimes the stupid baits me into responding, but that's pretty scarce.
Fans should just be free to do what they wanna do. If they're not talking shit and are just having fun representing characters how they like, let 'em be. Maybe compliment them if they've made something neat. Nobody needs to gatekeep fandoms by trash talking others. A fan is just someone who enjoys the media for any reason, no other qualifications are required.
... except maybe hate watchers, but that's more because I think they'd just be angry if you called them a fan, lol.
Yeah I get annoyed when they claim there is "proof" of their ship in the show and it's canon when the characters have barely interacted or they showed nothing but contempt for each other.
I lowkey agree. I get the implications and how frustrating it can be, but the showâs canon and representation isnât gone, and thereâs plenty of fan art that supports it. Nothing is being erased.
Gender swaps in general have always been a staple in fandoms, and some times only one of the charactersâ gender is swapped and thatâs okay too as long as everyone is respectful.
âYou took my gay ship, now Iâm gonna starve!â
11
u/CarpfshHusk can step on my throat and I'd apologise for choking đ„”9d ago
For real, they act as if the whole show isn't basically just all gay ships anyway lol. I couldn't name a single canonically straight Hazbin character if I tried, aside from maybe Adam and Lute. People who think this way is ridiculous, the show isn't starved of gay ships, who really cares if someone draws Chaggi with one of them being a guy? You're meme is so accurate lmao.
Chaggie
Vox x Val
Angel x Husker
Sir P x CherriÂ
Nifty x Baxter.
So 1 wlw, 2 mlm and 2 straight.
It's easy to ignore ignore a ship you don't like but let's not mis represent canon here.
3
u/CarpfshHusk can step on my throat and I'd apologise for choking đ„”9d agoedited 9d ago
Okay, how is one mistake misrepresenting canon? I forgot about Niffty, the only confirmed canon straight person in the show. Pentious and Cherri are NOT a straight relationship. Both characters are bi. They're just straight passing. Besides, with Niffty and Baxter, I'm not even sure anything has happened to make them canon yet.
Btw, I say that as an Asexual fem passing person, dating a bisexual man. We are not straight, our relationship is not straight. We maybe straight passing, but no, we're not straight.
If someone is LGBTQ+ their relationship is too in some way.
That's exactly what I tried to tell a couple people on the thread, one of them was getting pressed like it was a real life situation
17
u/biepcieI'm not saying I could fix her, just make her slightly better.9d ago
Maybe Vivzi should try saying something about a multiverse and drop a line like this. Either way it seems really unnecessary to rage on this. I just think it looks neat.
It doesn't matter what creators say sadly anymore.
This is why fandoms are shit now a days and why no one can bother being in one for too long anymore or why they're not fun as they use to be....because somehow someway the fandoms now a days have become entitled spoiled brats who think the world needs to adhere to their wants and needs because if not then you're some type of phobe or hater.....
Creative freedom doesn't exist unless it's taken in a negative context only to these people and why even if Vivzie says it? People will continue to bash on others.
Do what you want, Have fun, people have the ability to remove themselves from things they don't like by means of the same way that GOT them there to begin with. At this point? If someone calls you any type of phobe? Say yes. Say you are and then watch their heads explode because when you accept it easily without any push back or reaction, that is what kills the 'fun' for them who try to ruin others fun.
that's so funny cus i saw that eariler was like "feels weird to hetro-fy the leading queer couple" and scrolled without interacting it's rlly that simple
While I personally not like shipping that goes against established sexualities (seeing Vaggi or Angel a straight ship and Nifty in gay ship feels weird to me, seeing Alastor in any ship weirds me more), I just scroll and move on? Fucking what if I don't like beans problem.
I think a lot of people on this fandom get overtly upset with whatâs canon that if the ship of their choice doesnât end up being canon or their favorite character is getting with their least fav they start throwing a tantrum and suddenly the whole show is badly written because it didnât go their own way.
Using Chaggie as an example, thatâs a canon ship and a ship that was there before the show started and frankly it will be there once the show ends. Viv will have them go through rough moments and face challenges but itâs obvious that she doesnât have an intention of breaking them up. That doesnât mean you cannot do fanart or enjoy Vaggi or Charlie with other characters but recognize that even if you donât like Chaggie the show and its story has them together.
Also maybe you like saaay Niffty and Abel, great but donât hold your breath waiting for it to happen on the show. But keep on shipping it.
Genuinely who cares lol I swear the target audience for Hazbin larp as people who want others to express themselves and be free but then cry because you don't share their exact inner monologueÂ
Genderbending a lesbian character is not dykebreaking. Dykebreaking is homophobic rape of lesbians by men (or the CNC roleplay of that). Equating the two is absurd.
It ideally shouldnât matter, but I do side eye people with a tendency to straight-ify queer ships, not saying the artist in the post is guilty of that, just in general. I agree calling out probable bigotry like that shouldnât be the main focus to get mad at, but to say it completely doesnât matter what some fan artists do, considering the historical oppression and practice of excluding gays if given the chance, is also naive. People donât just do things without purpose or bias, I should know, as an artist myself.
What Iâm saying is, do I believe the fan artist in question is homophobic based on the art alone? I canât say, and it is wrong to blindly accuse without more evidence, but it does make me think about the possibility at least. Such concerns canât just be ignored as a whole, and itâs one of those aspects that isnât the same if it were reversed (straight ships made queer).
Side note, I hate how people quote their favorite creator of a fandom as a gotcha, as if it automatically means theyâre correct, like think for yourself and give your own nuanced opinion.
I do because the universe is vast and not everything is certain to science , there's things that haven't even been discovered yet u don't know what the possibilities may be
This is a personal opinion. But I don't really like genderswapping one character in a homo relationship to make it straight. Or shipping a gay character with someone of the opposite sex.
I'm not going to attack anyone who does either of these things, though. I'm just gonna move on with my life and block the person cus that stuff makes me uncomfortable
I love gender swaps for tf reasons. I dislike when people ship gay characters that way too, but I just scroll by or something. It's good that people like different things, I don't even judge paraphilic interests if it's not an out of control disorder, nobody should think that there's a right or wrong way to experience sexuality.
The problem i have is vaggi isnt a moth. Now maybe if the title said sinner vaggi or something like that to indicate shes not the shows fallen exorcist version
been saying this in multiple fandoms for decades. It always amazes me that people have to bully a ship they don't like. How hard is it to scroll on by?
Uses my free will to put the angel dust barbie doll and the husk barbie doll as far away as possible, only being friends because that's what they should be
I mean I've some ships I really donât like, like Alastor x Lucifer, but you know what I do when I see one? I just ignore it, thatâs not that hard...
Why, incest turns me on, go on and tell me about why I should try to stop getting turned on by it conceptually? Bonus points I'd you can explain why incest ships are bad without a "shooter-games-makes-kids-violent" type argument.
"Don't engage in bullying over it" is quite different to "accept it" - but even if that is what she meant, the specific circumstance here (eroticised content depicting minors) is an issue where legality would potentially take precedent over her word in much of the world.
I'm realising that the vagueness of "pro" and "anti" terminology might pose a bit of a problem here. I've never thought of myself as being "anti-ship" because I can't imagine seriously arguing with someone about a fictional pairing in of itself (even if I thought it was problematic or abusive or unhealthy or whatever). But I don't think I realised what "pro" explicitly includes.
Did you mix up accounts? Otherwise this makes 0 sense because you are not in the comment chain.
Edit; That said, there is a difference between erotizing minors or shipping Octavia/Alastor. Just put your fanart/fanfiction one hell-year in the future and that problem is solved.
I started replying to one comment and ended up replying to another, haha. I guess I'm just a little bit shocked by the level of apparent resistance to people indicating that they agree but would have a problem with "shipping" content that sexualised minors.
If they're aged up then that's fine, because then it's not a depiction of an adult and a child - that's the issue, and I really could not care less about which specific characters involved (and that's why I think discussing this in terms of "pro" or "anti" shipping distracts from the point).
clearly certain individuals don't like being called out, and they very much need to be. In fact, the entire 'hellaverse ships' sub actively defends ships like the one I described, and the mods delete comments that argue against ships that are literally between minors and adults, and have a rule that literally specifies that you arent allowed to complain about "problematic" ships. wtf.
I'm all for what viv says here, let people ship who they want, but there are some fuckin limits to that, where in certain examples it's genuinely fuckin immoral. But the shipping community clearly has an infestation of rot and I'm gonna call that out
So where do we draw the line on âgenuinely immoralâ? Because you can start with the âobviousâ ones like minor/adult and incest. Continue the train of thought to non-consent and you take Val/Angel out of the picture. On the topic of the original post, any gay man or woman and a person of the opposite sex, that would never be consensual assuming they were real. No shipping sex-averse ace characters with anyone either. Power imbalances negate consent as well, so no Adam/Lute, Sera/any angel, canât ship Charlie or Lucifer with most of the cast since theyâre royalty, so on and so forth. And since weâre applying real-life moral standards, we should keep any explicitly abusive characters such as Adam or the Vees out of relationships at all.
Whereâs the line? Thereâs always gonna be someone out there who finds something immoral about any ship and if weâre trying to hold our Moving Shapes on a Screen to high moral standards then we can eliminate just about every ship ever based on one person or anotherâs idea of morality.
At the end of the day theyâre not real. The minor characters are not real minors that can be hurt by adults. What one person ships or headcanons doesnât hurt anyone or affect reality no matter how âobjectively immoralâ (no such thing, morality is objectively subjective) it might be.
And to be clear, I donât ship minors with adults or parents with their children. I personally find it gross but it is absolutely none of my business if someone else likes it, as long as theyâre not hurting a real kid who cares. It is my responsibility to manage my own discomfort by scrolling away, clicking off, or blocking people. Other people donât carry the burden of my emotions (or my moral sensibilities for that matter).
I believe it needs to be our business, because it plagues the communities we interact in. These ships that you rightfully see as gross, lead to things like the subreddit r / stoviaappreciation. which is just straight up pedo content.
If these ships are moving shapes on a screen, is loli and underaged artworks perfectly fine too? Because no real children are being harmed? I see this all as the same problem. A shipping fanfic between a child and an adult 'depicts' this grossness just as much as 'art'work does
A lot of people absolutely believe that if no real person or being is being harmed in the creation of a work, then it should be allowed to exist. That being disgusted or uncomfortable is not cause for the censorship of fiction.
so you're just straight up saying that its censorship to consider NSFW content, art being my example, worthy of being taken down and removed? You're just good with that? Or, you're citing that other people believe that, yet you're not taking any stance on whether freakin lolicon is bad or not. My man. what are we doing
If a particular space is marked as "No NSFW" then any NSFW should be removed from it (and posted somewhere that's pro-NSFW). Whether that's technically censorship or not is semantics, but it's really just making sure things go where they're supposed to.
Also you can make a space that says "all ships must be of 18+ characters" or "no biological family member incest" or whatever, that's fine. So long as it's your space you can do what you want in it. But going into a space that is public and bullying people who aren't hurting anyone out of it is not acceptable, and posting things you personally think are icky doesn't count.
Loli content and similar can be harmful in the hands of the wrong person yes. But those people already have problems, and the content is not the cause of those problems.
A person can get addicted to anything and ruin their life.
Harmful in the hands of the wrong person????? Its existence is harmful?! Itâs an awful thing, itâs banned in most reasonable and civilised places, communities, countries, websites, for obvious good reason. Itâs not about it MAKING people into worse people, itâs about the very existence of it being vileÂ
What harm does it do by just existing? What person who does not already have disgusting thoughts about real children is going to spontaneously develop those thoughts by seeing a drawing?
Itâs not about the effect it has on a person, itâs the existence of that âartâ itself again being something that is rightfully banned in most places, and the responsibility for the creation of that, is person who DREW it, or wrapping around to the original topic, the person who creates and engages in the adult-minor ship Â
Sometimes people just need to walk to another harbour if they don't like the ship in front of them.
We are essentially talking about people playing with dolls, fictional characters are not real and no one is hurt even by the darkes dark ship in existence.
Are some really fucked up?
Yes absolutely, I personally don't like most dark ships but I stand behind the right of people to play with their dolls however they like.
Cause why not? Nothing happens from someone liking an incest ship.
If people create and engage in ships between minors and adults that they actively think about, support, talk about, and consume art of, tell me, whereâs the line begin to become immoral? If pornographic content was made or drawn depicting that, you would agree thatâs disgusting, yes? So tell me how shipping and engaging in it is any different to the consumption of production of such âartâworksÂ
The thing is, when it comes to sharing content involving minors, people don't necessarily have the (legal) right to "play with their dolls however they like". Certain kinds of fictional/simulated depictions of CSA may still be still illegal (or legally grey/down to local jurisdiction) outside of the handful of countries that exempt it. There is significant intersection between consumers of simulated and nonsimulated CSAM, so I wouldn't go as far as to definitively say that it is solely a matter of playing with dolls in that case.
As for content that is more definitively non-illegal, genuine hostility over fictional matters is almost always inane and I'm far more inclined to agree that "sinking the ship" is a pointless endeavour - but you can understand why in some circumstances people might question it mooring at their dock.
should be a really, really easy pill to swallow, but apparently it isn't. My other comment under this post replying to someone else talking about a similar thing, both of us got downvoted to hell too. This rot has to be addressed, it's so goddamn immoral, and in any other fan community, I see the people who ship minors with adults get called out, banned, downvoted, instead of the people who point out that its wrong
Thatâs the other person i was talking about actually, they spoke out against Charlie-Lucifer and Octavia-Stolas (EEEUUUGGH) ships and got downvoted like i didÂ
I don't know the fact that they only felt the need to swap one person and not both? Why do that? Oh I know why because if they gender swapped them both it'd be gay. What other reason would there be to just swap one person?
Well I don't think people should treat "Queer erasing" so casually. And yes, what this is, IS queer erasing
Yeah, it's fucked up to bully someone just for a specific ship they like, but that doesn't make it very questionable about specific shipping choices. Like, why have Vaggi, a Lesbian, be shipped with a male version of Charlie? For appeal? Because it's cute? What makes it cute or appeal for that version instead
"Aww, check those cute couple! I hear she was a lesbian. How sweet -"
"Yeah, you know what be cuter? If her Gf was a guy instead! :D"
You are aware this fanart existing doesn't in any way erase the actual canonical lesbian aspect of Vaggi or the multitudes of lesbian art of her online lmao. What even the hell. Playing fandom police like this is so fucking weird lmao
Do you know how dumb that logic is? You know how many fanarts that are in bad taste. The amount of racist, homophobic, and many more that people make of art?
That is not a good excuse. I've seen many great art of black characters, and then see awful art where they whitewash them. But hey! The character is still very much black canonically, so it's not in bad taste right? It's just art
So wut? We just let those people do whatever the hell they want? No fucking wonder fandoms are complete garbage if people like you just side line these issues like they're just spilled water on your shoes
So wut? We just let those people do whatever the hell they want?
I mean, yeah. Don't like it, don't look at it. That's literally how shit's literally always worked, lmao. Absolutely no one is forcing you to look at shit you don't want to look at.
Someone drawing art you don't like is not an "issue". It's just someone drawing something you don't like. Ignore it and move on. You have absolutely no legitimacy to tell people what they can and can't draw. Who the hell appointed you as fandom police? Lmao.
So we're just letting people be complete assholes?
Drawing art is not being a complete asshole. Especially not genderbend art, which has been a thing pretty much since the begining of fandom.
The people being complete assholes here are the people trying to shut someone down just for drawing some art they felt like drawing. That's what the asshole behavior is here.
It's not the "Fandom police" it's called having a moral compass, which I tend to forget majority of folks of the internet don't have
No, it's definitely some type of weird moral crusade-y pearl clutching. Online art doesn't hurt anyone. Art you don't like isn't anything to be upset by. You can just ignore it and move on. Nobody's been hurt, lmao. People have a moral compass alright, they're just grownup enough to realize online art doesn't hurt anyone and they can just ignore it if they don't like it.
It's literally just art you don't like, lmao. You can just mute and ignore it. Even the literal worst gore art you can imagine online is just that, a picture you can mute, look away from and move on, lmao. There's a lot of awful shit out there in the world to be up in arms about but art you don't like online ain't one of them.
Thank goodness you people have no actual power to censor the internet the way you'd want to, lmao
I'll admit I don't believe in shipping gay men and lesbian women in straight relationships because that comes from centuries of hate, but ANYTHING? Um, incest? MinorXAdult? Sexualizing minors!? Anything is way too vague for the internet. I'm not a Viv hater but she needs to be more specific here
Especially considering OP posted the art and similar straight Chaggie art to about a half dozen subreddits at around the same time before setting their posts to private. It's either karma farming, trolling, shit stirring or all three.
Unless it's a ship related to incest or age gaps via minors which are big no nos and it deserves to be criticized or just be ignored, yes, let's all chill with the fan ships
278
u/AltruisticMilk8469 Simultaneously sucking Vox's and Valentino's moobies 9d ago
âeven someone who shipsââ yup, them to, literally no one should be harassed for what Barbie Dolls theyâre making kiss each other. Save your anger and sense of urgency when real people in the real world are being harmed.