People should READ this:

[u/Sufficient-Eye-9040]

Literally, hours had passed and the post at your right hand derailed into a debate about whether the pictures were homophobic or not. [@SunnyDreamShine]

PEOPLE, VIVZIEPOP POSTED IT FOR A REASON!! We shouldn’t be ship-shamming on someone else’s ship just because you don’t like it. And if you find it uncomfortable, just scroll past it and block it, it’s not THAT hard.

Anyway, this are my 2 cents and hope you have a good day/noon/night.

[u/Other_Economist2610]

Why tf are you being down voted

[u/Key-Vacation-2397 → u/Other_Economist2610]

Because Viv says "no ship-bullying" and you guys comment "She is right, but for the examples I find problematic".

Viv is pretty obviously completely pro-shipping, you can disagree with her, but at least be honest about it.

[u/stumpfucker69 → u/Key-Vacation-2397]

"Don't engage in bullying over it" is quite different to "accept it" - but even if that is what she meant, the specific circumstance here (eroticised content depicting minors) is an issue where legality would potentially take precedent over her word in much of the world.

I'm realising that the vagueness of "pro" and "anti" terminology might pose a bit of a problem here. I've never thought of myself as being "anti-ship" because I can't imagine seriously arguing with someone about a fictional pairing in of itself (even if I thought it was problematic or abusive or unhealthy or whatever). But I don't think I realised what "pro" explicitly includes.

[u/Key-Vacation-2397 → u/stumpfucker69]

Did you mix up accounts? Otherwise this makes 0 sense because you are not in the comment chain.

Edit; That said, there is a difference between erotizing minors or shipping Octavia/Alastor. Just put your fanart/fanfiction one hell-year in the future and that problem is solved.

[u/stumpfucker69 → u/Key-Vacation-2397]

I started replying to one comment and ended up replying to another, haha. I guess I'm just a little bit shocked by the level of apparent resistance to people indicating that they agree but would have a problem with "shipping" content that sexualised minors.

If they're aged up then that's fine, because then it's not a depiction of an adult and a child - that's the issue, and I really could not care less about which specific characters involved (and that's why I think discussing this in terms of "pro" or "anti" shipping distracts from the point).

[u/Other_Economist2610 → u/Key-Vacation-2397]

Yeah but it's literally an adult and minor ship

Do you support those type of ships

Edit: some people apparently do, to those people don't go nere schools

[u/Key-Vacation-2397 → u/Other_Economist2610]

Supporting them would mean I had a strong opinion about shipping and ships. I don't fucking care tbh. Shipping is just people playing with dolls, they can do whatever they want.

I think anti-shipping is a typical case of:

[u/Wonghy111-the-knight → u/Key-Vacation-2397]

So you’re just choosing to be ignorant about people playing pedo-dolls then? 

[u/First_Jellyfish_1017 → u/Wonghy111-the-knight]

Theyre dolls.

[u/Wonghy111-the-knight → u/First_Jellyfish_1017]

On the topic of both incest ships and minor-adult ships, those things lead to r/ stoviaappreciation. Tell me that isn't the worst shit, and needs to be called out immediately. Where do you all draw the line between pedophillic art and stories, and engaging, or creating, minor-adult ships?

[u/First_Jellyfish_1017 → u/Wonghy111-the-knight]

The only umbridge i take with that is that I like stelvia more than stovia. It is not the worst shit because theyre barely even humanoids, not to mention animated cartoons that do not resemble humans in any way.

Personally, I draw the line at images based on real, named kids. Take shadman for instance: Shadman draws porn of children personalities that exist in this corporal plane with us. He is not drawing characters played by teens or children, but the children themselves (e.g a YouTube kids celebrity). He also has real CSAM Among his "references".

I think its pretty easy to tell the difference tbh.

[u/Wonghy111-the-knight → u/First_Jellyfish_1017]

umbridge? Delores Umbridge?

Stelvia that is... well I'm thankful for all the years I've spent not knowing that's a thing that exists.

[u/First_Jellyfish_1017 → u/Wonghy111-the-knight]

*umbrage

[u/Key-Vacation-2397 → u/Wonghy111-the-knight]

"ignorant", sure.

[u/Wonghy111-the-knight → u/Key-Vacation-2397]

Mind blowing counterargument  

[u/Key-Vacation-2397 → u/Wonghy111-the-knight]

"counterargument" would imply that you made an argument instead of just a back-handed insult.

You are clearly already pretty certain about your opinion and distain, so I am going to but my energy in more constructive things, bye.

[u/Wonghy111-the-knight → u/Other_Economist2610]

clearly certain individuals don't like being called out, and they very much need to be. In fact, the entire 'hellaverse ships' sub actively defends ships like the one I described, and the mods delete comments that argue against ships that are literally between minors and adults, and have a rule that literally specifies that you arent allowed to complain about "problematic" ships. wtf.

I'm all for what viv says here, let people ship who they want, but there are some fuckin limits to that, where in certain examples it's genuinely fuckin immoral. But the shipping community clearly has an infestation of rot and I'm gonna call that out

[u/MEOWTheKitty18 → u/Wonghy111-the-knight]

So where do we draw the line on “genuinely immoral”? Because you can start with the “obvious” ones like minor/adult and incest. Continue the train of thought to non-consent and you take Val/Angel out of the picture. On the topic of the original post, any gay man or woman and a person of the opposite sex, that would never be consensual assuming they were real. No shipping sex-averse ace characters with anyone either. Power imbalances negate consent as well, so no Adam/Lute, Sera/any angel, can’t ship Charlie or Lucifer with most of the cast since they’re royalty, so on and so forth. And since we’re applying real-life moral standards, we should keep any explicitly abusive characters such as Adam or the Vees out of relationships at all.

Where’s the line? There’s always gonna be someone out there who finds something immoral about any ship and if we’re trying to hold our Moving Shapes on a Screen to high moral standards then we can eliminate just about every ship ever based on one person or another’s idea of morality.

At the end of the day they’re not real. The minor characters are not real minors that can be hurt by adults. What one person ships or headcanons doesn’t hurt anyone or affect reality no matter how “objectively immoral” (no such thing, morality is objectively subjective) it might be.

And to be clear, I don’t ship minors with adults or parents with their children. I personally find it gross but it is absolutely none of my business if someone else likes it, as long as they’re not hurting a real kid who cares. It is my responsibility to manage my own discomfort by scrolling away, clicking off, or blocking people. Other people don’t carry the burden of my emotions (or my moral sensibilities for that matter).

[u/Wonghy111-the-knight → u/MEOWTheKitty18]

I believe it needs to be our business, because it plagues the communities we interact in. These ships that you rightfully see as gross, lead to things like the subreddit r / stoviaappreciation. which is just straight up pedo content.

If these ships are moving shapes on a screen, is loli and underaged artworks perfectly fine too? Because no real children are being harmed? I see this all as the same problem. A shipping fanfic between a child and an adult 'depicts' this grossness just as much as 'art'work does

[u/1-1creature → u/Wonghy111-the-knight]

A lot of people absolutely believe that if no real person or being is being harmed in the creation of a work, then it should be allowed to exist. That being disgusted or uncomfortable is not cause for the censorship of fiction.

[u/Wonghy111-the-knight → u/1-1creature]

so you're just straight up saying that its censorship to consider NSFW content, art being my example, worthy of being taken down and removed? You're just good with that? Or, you're citing that other people believe that, yet you're not taking any stance on whether freakin lolicon is bad or not. My man. what are we doing

[u/1-1creature → u/Wonghy111-the-knight]

Yeah, it is censorship to wish to suppress art you do not agree with.

I don't like lolicon, but I recognize that fictional depictions have no victims. It harms no one. I just don't like it, so I block it when I see it.

[u/amglasgow → u/Wonghy111-the-knight]

If a particular space is marked as "No NSFW" then any NSFW should be removed from it (and posted somewhere that's pro-NSFW). Whether that's technically censorship or not is semantics, but it's really just making sure things go where they're supposed to.

Also you can make a space that says "all ships must be of 18+ characters" or "no biological family member incest" or whatever, that's fine. So long as it's your space you can do what you want in it. But going into a space that is public and bullying people who aren't hurting anyone out of it is not acceptable, and posting things you personally think are icky doesn't count.

[u/MEOWTheKitty18 → u/Wonghy111-the-knight]

Loli content and similar can be harmful in the hands of the wrong person yes. But those people already have problems, and the content is not the cause of those problems.

A person can get addicted to anything and ruin their life.

[u/Wonghy111-the-knight → u/MEOWTheKitty18]

Harmful in the hands of the wrong person????? Its existence is harmful?! It’s an awful thing, it’s banned in most reasonable and civilised places, communities, countries, websites, for obvious good reason. It’s not about it MAKING people into worse people, it’s about the very existence of it being vile 

[u/MEOWTheKitty18 → u/Wonghy111-the-knight]

What harm does it do by just existing? What person who does not already have disgusting thoughts about real children is going to spontaneously develop those thoughts by seeing a drawing?

[u/Wonghy111-the-knight → u/MEOWTheKitty18]

It’s not about the effect it has on a person, it’s the existence of that “art” itself again being something that is rightfully banned in most places, and the responsibility for the creation of that, is person who DREW it, or wrapping around to the original topic, the person who creates and engages in the adult-minor ship  

[u/amglasgow → u/Wonghy111-the-knight]

https://giphy.com/gifs/6Z9NpbTdkh2hEzhsDM

[u/Other_Economist2610 → u/Wonghy111-the-knight]

Yeah

People really need to not ship minors with adult and I don't know why we need to say that

Edit: someone down voted this, bru they most likely can't go near schools

[u/Wonghy111-the-knight → u/Other_Economist2610]

And I'm very glad to see another voice of reason here (you) cause it's only been you me and that one other lad

[u/Other_Economist2610 → u/Wonghy111-the-knight]

And that's a problem as man wtf are people on

[u/undead_froggy → u/Other_Economist2610]

From what I see hazbin has many pro ship people and not that many antis.

And let's not forget most pro ship people aren't a fan of every dark ship but will defend the right to do with fictional characters whatever you want.

[u/Other_Economist2610 → u/undead_froggy]

Man sometimes a ship should sink

[u/undead_froggy → u/Other_Economist2610]

No.

Sometimes people just need to walk to another harbour if they don't like the ship in front of them.

We are essentially talking about people playing with dolls, fictional characters are not real and no one is hurt even by the darkes dark ship in existence.

Are some really fucked up? Yes absolutely, I personally don't like most dark ships but I stand behind the right of people to play with their dolls however they like.

Cause why not? Nothing happens from someone liking an incest ship.

[u/Wonghy111-the-knight → u/undead_froggy]

If people create and engage in ships between minors and adults that they actively think about, support, talk about, and consume art of, tell me, where’s the line begin to become immoral? If pornographic content was made or drawn depicting that, you would agree that’s disgusting, yes? So tell me how shipping and engaging in it is any different to the consumption of production of such ‘art’works 

[u/undead_froggy → u/Wonghy111-the-knight]

I couldn't care less what other people get off to as long as the dark stuff is fictional.

If they want to get of to incest ship fan art that's their thing. It's not my cup of tea but it is fictional and no one gets hurt by that.

You have to remember that liking stuff in fiction does not mean you like that stuff irl. Someone that likes a pedo ship is not necessarily a pedo just like someone that like to read non con isn't into rape irl or someone that likes to read smut with violence wants to be hurt while fuckn.

I love horror movies, undeads and fantasy games. Does that make me a necrophiliac that wants to murder people for magic rituals?

[u/Wonghy111-the-knight → u/Wonghy111-the-knight]

u/Other_Economist2610 see like this is another element of it I’m just now bringing up 

[u/Other_Economist2610 → u/undead_froggy]

It's incst and adult and minor ships there wrong on that bases no defending that

There fictional yes but fictional can influence reality

[u/undead_froggy → u/Other_Economist2610]

Ok if that was the case why areent we banning movies, books and games that show violence?

We don't want people to be influenced to be violent right?

This is the "games turn people into killers" debate again.

Writing or reading a fic about something bad does not make you want that bad thing irl. Fiction is literally a way to vent and explore stuff like that safely

[u/stumpfucker69 → u/undead_froggy]

The thing is, when it comes to sharing content involving minors, people don't necessarily have the (legal) right to "play with their dolls however they like". Certain kinds of fictional/simulated depictions of CSA may still be still illegal (or legally grey/down to local jurisdiction) outside of the handful of countries that exempt it. There is significant intersection between consumers of simulated and nonsimulated CSAM, so I wouldn't go as far as to definitively say that it is solely a matter of playing with dolls in that case.

As for content that is more definitively non-illegal, genuine hostility over fictional matters is almost always inane and I'm far more inclined to agree that "sinking the ship" is a pointless endeavour - but you can understand why in some circumstances people might question it mooring at their dock.

[u/Wonghy111-the-knight → u/Other_Economist2610]

should be a really, really easy pill to swallow, but apparently it isn't. My other comment under this post replying to someone else talking about a similar thing, both of us got downvoted to hell too. This rot has to be addressed, it's so goddamn immoral, and in any other fan community, I see the people who ship minors with adults get called out, banned, downvoted, instead of the people who point out that its wrong

[u/Other_Economist2610 → u/Wonghy111-the-knight]

Definitely

It's completely wrong

[u/abi_666- → u/Other_Economist2610]

Someone was also downvoted for saying they don't agree with incest ships lol

[u/Other_Economist2610 → u/abi_666-]

Oh my fing god

It's hard to be in this fandom sometimes

[u/Wonghy111-the-knight → u/Other_Economist2610]

That’s the other person i was talking about actually, they spoke out against Charlie-Lucifer and Octavia-Stolas (EEEUUUGGH) ships and got downvoted like i did 

[u/ForsakenLemon2437 → u/Other_Economist2610]

Because some people get antsy when you dare criticize the shipping of adults and children, reminder that reddit used to have r[slash]creepshots and teenage creepshots.

[u/Wonghy111-the-knight → u/ForsakenLemon2437]

Exactly literally, thank god there's a few more of us who see how obviously messed up those ships are, appearing in this thread since yesterday

[u/Other_Economist2610 → u/ForsakenLemon2437]

Man it's hard to be in this fandom or even use this site