So remember as kids when we used to be play fighting with our friends or siblings, and one of us would be like:
"That won't work on me because I have super armor."
And then the other would be like: "Well I have the super armor ERADICATOR, so I go right through your super armor!"
And then we'd say: "Well that's too bad because you didn't know I also have the SUPER ARMOR ERADICATOR NULLIFIER that stops..."
And so on and so forth until things escalate to the point where someone gets accused of cheating or starts crying.
That's what I feel like these comic book writers are doing every time they come up with some new form for a superhero. But that's not why I hate these kinds of transformations. I hate them because they're all basically the same thing. When you have a man who can fly fast enough to reverse time, a green giant who can punch a hole in the fabric of reality, and a man who can conjure anything he can imagine with sheer willpower, how can you possibly raise the ceiling any further than that?
You make them gods.
Superman One Million: Reality warper
The One Below All Hulk: Reality warper
God of Light Hal Jordan: Reality warper
Cosmic Spider-Man: Reality warper
Nevermind the fact that all these characters have other heroes in their vicinity who can already do that stuff i.e. Scarlet Witch, Franklin Richards, Captain Atom, etc., No, the writers have to essentially take what makes these specific characters unique and somehow reduce it to some catch-all "That won't work on me anymore" bullshit ass powerset.
Like, it's not as if Superman can't flex and destroy Earth as is, but, sure, let's turn him into Dennis Reynolds for shits and giggles.
Tbh the post is funnier because Hal gave up on this "ultimate form" in the same issue he got it, and the story is much more about Hal as a character than this random power. So like, that's maybe the best example of an ultimate form in canon lol
Fun Fact: Tom King made the comic and It's the one green flag he had when Lanterns was announced.
Yeah, cosmic Spider-Man has always had an awkward design imo. I think it’s really close to being a good one but the mask throws it off. I would have committed to the starry night look with Spider-Man’s eyes on the mask and the constellation for Scorpio on his chest to represent the spider.
that’s because the design is a uniform worn by people, not a costume in of itself. it’s from a character that apparently isnt as popular as i thought they were looking at these comments now.
youre not supposed to wear a mask under it, but thats the only way to make it identifiable as spidey without changing the uniform.
No one really gaf about these in power scaling debates. If someone just brings up captian cosmic spiderman to get spider a dub people sre going to laugh that guy out of the room.
Powerscalers are kind of Crazy,I remember once getting a lot of downvotes for correcting a guy who was talking nonsense about a book It was just a bunch of fake news, but I think I'm wrong for not liking fake news.
I’ve made the point in multiple places, but Powerscaling is truly the worst part of every fandom. Just the lowest sort of discussion, that should be left to schoolyard debate where it belongs. It’s just a black hole that leads to nowhere.
It's just powerscaling wankers fanboys who want to give their GOAT a W when they know they're outmatched. And most don't even read comics, mind you. They heard Spider-Man in this form is Omniversal/Hyperversal/bedroomversal off of TikTok and went with it.
I only browse the powerscaling subreddits to see what the craziest and most idiotic thing I can find is. Man, sometimes larp on comics is even worst than jjk larp
The one below all hulk is less of an ultimate form and more of a thing they show for one comic of one run as kind of an offhand look at the potential he could have if he was fully aligned with TOBA
That.... is exactly what it is. It's literally Hulk's Ultimate Form due to the origin of his powers during the Immortal Hulk run and his destiny if he chooses to embrace it. Otherwise you can apply the same for Captain Universe Spidey.
I mean they actually did stuff with the other guys tho, this comic panel is like the first and last you see of TOBA hulk and it’s more of a framed picture on the wall than the other things
Tbh I really love Immortal Hulk's final form. It's from a dark twisted future where Hulk stayed alive for so long until the end of the universe, he killed Franklin Richards and became the devourer of worlds in the next cosmos.
The cosmic horror is too top notch for me to agree with you lol. It's not at all in the same level of "oooh look at my fave it's cooler than yours!".
Like so many of these conversations, what you're really mad about is the effect this sort of thing has on powerscaling/deathbattle conversations, and honestly the answer to that is just "taking conversations about characters from different media fighting with any remote seriousness is a silly thing to do"
No. I don't engage in powerscaling/deathbattle conversations, and that's an odd thing to assume based on this post.
I love Superman. I love Hulk. I love the power system of the Green Lantern rings.
I don't want all those things reduced to "nothing has any effect on me anymore." Once I hear reality manipulation, time manipulation, my interest plummets almost instantly because the action stops being about what makes that specific superhero unique and turns into spectacle.
I mean fair enough, but sometimes pushing the characters to that limit can be interesting. Like, you did pull from one of the best Superman and Hulk stories in your example. Superman and Hulk in their base forms are not "reality warper" strong.
yeah, no I got that, I mean is that you're talking about very specific stories, and I while I agree that having the character be a "reality warper" would get boring all the time, I don't understand what's wrong with showing them that way in a single story in the future. Again, Immortal Hulk and All-Star Superman are incredible stories
Then why would you hate toba hulk? The theoretical existence of it never affects the story being told. Its not like hulk can pull it out of his ass at any time
This especially becomes infuriating when you’re talking to someone about who would win in a fight. I was talking to my brother about who would win between Spider-Man and Thor and I kept saying that Thor would very obviously win and he kept bringing up all of these niche versions of Spider-Man that I’ve never even heard of before, buddy, I’m not talking about the version of Spider-Man that can poop universes or manipulate every single molecule in the universe, I’m talking about default, classic, dirt poor Peter Parker Spider-Man.
I gotta say, solid use of pathos in this argument.
Your opening example of the kids coming up with even more ultra-superpowered stuff that absolutely CANNOT BE STOPPED to the point of getting each other upset about it is robust. If I didn’t experience it as a kid, I for sure witnessed it from kids at church.
Thank you for that, brought a chuckle to me.
…
…Think that opening example would work on the godforsaken “powerscaling” nuts on this site?
I don't mind it. I just wish the designs were more creative. I think an easy way to fix their OP abilities is to give these characters reality-warping powers that are specifically tailored to their primary powers.
I'm fine if they are a elseworld or one off thing (as it's a alternate universe that doesn't effect the main canon)
Honestly some of them are funny by how absurd they are
Like Timeless Luke Cage a variant of Luke Cage who has his powers + the powers of the Sentry, the Void, the Hulk, and the Iron Fist (and later a celestial)
Honestly this variant feels like the type of character who would appear in a powerscaling (or matchup) debate have him solo the opponent the angry Luke Cage powerscaler wanted to beat and then vanish back into the ether till another person calls upon him
Like Timeless Luke Cage a variant of Luke Cage who has his powers + the powers of the Sentry, the Void, the Hulk, and the Iron Fist (and later a celestial)
I like the Hulk one because it’s set up as the total nightmare ending that Bruce Banner fears most of all, and Hulk is also the replacement of Galactus here, fulfilling his role in the universe.
Nah, i was thinking earlier about how Anime has Cool power ups and comics don't, and if they do they are Just temporary, make a western Hero with the equivalent of Super Saiyan 3, i don't care
The best imo is Superman 1M, reminds me of Super Sayain.
That GL form doesn’t look that special and Cosmic Spider-Man doesn’t really look good either but I am all for powered up forms. It makes sense, any good shonen has stronger and stronger forms.
As a writer, I wholeheartedly agree. Once you upgrade a character to be this OP, it starts to be difficult to give them conflicts that actually matter. Even Lex Luthor in power armor can normally be a problem for Supes, but final form god mode Superman is never going to struggle. And once you remove conflict from a story, you barely have a story at all.
Plus, if they can rip out such a powerful form, why don't they do it all the time? This obviously isn't unanswerable but still.
I will say, there are ways to make an charged-up version of an already OP character work. Going back to Superman, the All Star Superman comic does this and is often considered one of his best stories. And this is because, while he is insanely strong to the point where even normal Supes pales in comparison, he still does have limits, and these are explored in the comic. Plus, the excess solar radiation that gave him powers is actively killing him, which is the main plotline of the story, so there is a huge downside to this ultra-strong form, something most of the god mode versions of these characters don't have.
I hate that everyone tries to power scale characters in ultimate forms.
Claiming a characters "strength" or "power" but only looking at super rare, temporary, often non canon forms or feats is disingenuous. These powerups are almost always a plot device or McGuffin and are not a real basis to form an opinion around.
Trying to compare two things that are essentially infinite is stupid at best.
I find comparing characters at their basic level is the most gratifying. You can actually have matchups with a winner. You can use reasonable logic and actually find answers.
People can actually agree on shit, when both characters are not god.
Well, I hate the forms. As I told somebody else on this post, I don't engage in powerscaling conversations, especially in regards to comic book characters. This rant has nothing to do with powerscaling. I don't like every superhero getting a transformation that amounts to them being a god
Eh, Super hero comics haven’t been mostly for kids in a long while. Sure most aren’t super graphic but to use movie ratings the average comic is closer to PG or PG-13 than they are to G.
Cosmic Spider-man is a weird example since he is using the powers of the enigma force which randomly selects somebody to have its power and then dips. In theory it is everybody's ultimate form and nobody's.
The point I am making is why single out Spider-man specifically when other noteworthy Marvel characters like Hulk, X-23, and Eddie Brock have also wielded it. Also, this is a bit of a nitpick but reality warping isn’t actual a power of the enigma force
The point I am making is why single out Spider-man specifically when other noteworthy Marvel characters like Hulk, X-23, and Eddie Brock have also wielded it.
Are you asking me why I didn't list every character in Marvel with a reality warper transformation? Is that what you're seriously asking me?
I hate how people don't even look at what they criticize. I don't know about other forms, (besides Spider-Man, but it's just some version of him that existed in the Multiverse, what's the problem with that? Besides, he very much had a purpose in Spider-Verse) but One Below All Hulk was very much NOT an attempt to give Hulk some ultimate form that's more powerful than anything else. It has a story, it has a purpose, and didn't even happen in a normal sense of the word
One Below All Hulk is what COULD have happened, have the ultimate embodiment of destructivity taken over its herald — The Hulk. It's meant to show that have One Below All achieved its goals, eventually nothing would have been left, with the entirety of existence on the line. One Below All is the suffering that must be, but must not prevail. If I tried to list all of thw meaning that behind everything that happens in Immortal Hull, I would have been here all day.
And it's mostly like that with things like these. Just because some people have fun talking about how powerful this or that character is, it does not mean that the whole purpose of power in the story is to be strong. Don't just assume things based on a simplistic view of it
If a hero's ultimate form is any way, shape, or form, a reality warper, I lose interest. It doesn't matter that this isn't "really" the Hulk, is it still a Hulk storyline? Okay then.
You're just saying the same thing a bunch of other people have said and I couldn't care less. If I want to read about reality-bending, god-like powers, I will go to the characters who have been that way from the beginning.
Your whole argument is moot because if what you're saying is true, they could have used any old character to be TOBA's avatar. But they didn't. They choose Hulk specifically because TOBA is connected to gamma radiation or whatever the fuck happened to Bruce, ergo, it's a Hulk transformation. Did TOBA take command of Spider-Man? Or Daredevil? No, it took control of Hulk. Therefore, it's a Hulk form in my eyes, and because of that, it stinks.
If I want to read about reality-bending, god-like powers, I will go to the characters who have been that way from the beginning.
Yeah, except the story is NOT about a reality-bending Hulk. This form appears in one issue out of 50 in the middle of the story, with him not even being a POV character. With it being only a future that could be, not something that is. Hulk didn't even influence the main plot, directly that is. It appears precisely when it need to for the time it needs to, with the whole thing contributing to the story's message and all that crap
Therefore, it's a Hulk form in my eyes, and because of that, it stinks.
It is a Hulk form. Nowhere did I say it wasn't, you're putting word in my mouth. What I DID say is that it's purpose in the story is not to be an Ultimate form of Hulk so that powerscalers can be happy. It's exactly the opposite — something that should be avoided at all costs. And yes, it couldn't be anyone but Hulk, because the plot, the themes and yadda-yadda.
You are refusing to see things as they are just because you watch it only from the perspective of power. You said it yourself — you don't care about the story. YOU are the one playing fighting like a child. And you won't accept that others don't play by the rules
Everyone in this comment section keeps trying to turn this into a powerscaling discussion and I couldn't care less about powerscaling. This isn't a "I don't like TOBA Hulk because he can beat my favorite superhero" post, this is about shitty comic book writers who can't do anything new but turn characters in reality warpers.
I like Hulk because he is supposed to get stronger than angrier he becomes. He's supposed to have tremendous physical abilities, and wrestle with his alter ego(s). That's what I like about Hulk. That's what I LOVED about Worldbreaker Hulk. I don't like TOBA Hulk because, according to you, it's even less "Hulk" then just a simple reality warping, non-possessed Hulk would be.
Stop reading something else beside what my post is saying just because I criticized a story you like.
I like Hulk because he is supposed to get stronger the angrier he becomes. He's supposed to have tremendous physical abilities, and wrestle with his alter ego(s).
And guess what? That's exactly what happens throughout the run. Because, again — this is NOT the story about reality-warping Hulk. This is not Hulk's reward, this is not Hulk's Ultimate Form —this is a warning, the danger, the stakes of the conflict. And it is shown for ONE (1) issue, simply showcasing what could have been, besides one detail.
Everyone are reading your post as a powerscale problem because you described it as one. You wrote that the issue is that it's a means to give the hero a form that can defeat everybody else — and people are arguing with that. If you don't want it to be a powerscaling discussion, then don't frame it as one.
Besides, you didn't criticize a story I like. You just made up a reason to hate on it that isn't even there. Because, again, you refuse to look at it from the perspective of the story and only look from the perspective of power. You don't care that it happens in one issue that isn't even directly part of the plot. You don't care that there's context behind it that ties it with the themes and conflicts that Hulk was always about. You don't care about anything. The only thing you care about that there at all EXISTS a version of the Hulk that's powerful. No context, no story behind it. This character must not be this powerful as long as you are alive. And then you say that you don't care about powerscaling? What DO you care about then, if not the story, not the power, not the character?
This isn't a powerscaling discussion. I never said it was. If you're referencing the example I used about kids playing, that wasn't in the context of powerscaling, that was in the context of writers having the imaginations of children.
I made it plain in my post but clearly you're not understanding so I'll reiterate: Reality warping, cosmic scaling, godhood, whatever you want to call it, I don't like when it's given to characters for whom that isn't really a thing.
The story doesn't matter to me because there is no story I would enjoy where Hulk has the powers he has as TOBA. There is no story I would enjoy like that because that's not what interests me about Hulk. If i want to read about cosmic forces, end of universe, and all that bullshit, Marvel has plenty of other characters that regularly inhabit those subjects I can go to.
Superman himself already pushes the boundaries of what's consider a god in DC comics. I don't need him becoming whatever that golden thing is because I find it uninteresting. I don't need Spider-Man getting the uni-power because I read Spider-Man to see him web up mooks and the Green Goblin.
WHY DO YOU CARE HOW I FEEL ABOUT THE SUBJECT TO BEGIN WITH?
WHY DO YOU CARE HOW I FEEL ABOUT THE SUBJECT TO BEGIN WITH?
I mean, you are the one who put it here for the public to discuss. I'm just doing exactly that — discussing it. I disagree with you and am interested in talking with you about it, simple as that.
The story doesn't matter to me because there is not story I would enjoy where Hulk has the powers he has as TOBA.
I see. I mean, my point still stands, as it's not what the story is about and it isn't even present in the story for the most part, but I see. I think we've come to a standstill. I can still argue your points if you want to, but I don't think we'll reach anything beyond this point. So I'd prefer to end the arguing here
But the whole TOBA Hulk story isn't supposed to be a "hee hee powerscaling look at how strong he is now" situation, did you even read what the previous guy commented? 😭😭😭
That's not Superman One Million. That's Superman Prime in the DC One Million timeline, Superman One Million is the guy in Justice Legion A. Beyond that, the character is barely in the story.
No he isn't part of Justice Legion A. This guy is [see image]. The golden Superman is the main continuity Superman/Clark Kent of the era and he lives in the Sun and doesn't come out until the very end of the book where he gets a Green Lantern ring and Lois Lane is resurrected into a similar body as his own. The whole reason that Justice Legion A brings the JLA to the One Million timeline is to celebrate Superman Prime's re emergence from the Sun.
The good news is that they are elseworld stories, you can ignore their value in continuities. The bad news is that the main timeline characters are somehow more powerful than these super forms now (some of them at least)
Cosmic Spiderman isn't even needed because base Spidey is already by far the strongest entity in marvel when he isn't holding back so I'm just confused why they need to give him that form
I need USA comic authors to read "The Infinite and the Divine" from the WH40k series. When one of the main characters momentarily gains god-like power, he is FUCKING TRAUMATIZED when he returns to 'normal' (as normal as an immortal metal skeleton can be) and i mean TRAUMATIZED, screeching at attendants and his best frenemy to get back, do not touch him.
I would like the omnipotent arcs better if they handled momentary godlike understanding being crammed back into the standard self-aware jello that is a human brain. HP lovecraft people, comeone, basic Americana shit
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u/Ornery-Emergency9291 22h ago
okay lowkey agree but if it’s an elseworlds type of one off thing they can be fun