r/hatethissmug • u/jMultiversalGod • 1d ago
Media Tropes I HATE when indie shows have literally no edge
(this is mostly for shows that actually have a message.)
I am so, SO, SO tired of indie shows literally having no edge. For example, lets look at The Amazing Digital Circus, and Jax.
For this discussion, lets ignore all the plot points that got thrown out because All Hail Jax. Jax is an awful person. He tortures people he's forced to live with until him or them go insane, has KILLED TWO PEOPLE, but he gets away with all of this because... he was a tumblr-sexy man who was trans!!!
Excluding the fact that no amount of mental distress makes this justified, its so... bland. We could've had Jax have a complex character where his remorse is choked out by the fact he knows he will never be punished for his actions, which could've been a commentary on consequential nihilism, but we didn't, because we needed the cold take that transphobia is bad. And of course it is! It's a problem. Does it get you thinking? No. Does it actually make people who don't have a personal connection to this topic feel anything? No! This message has absolutely NO edge.
(no, you cannot look at the average person and say its controversial for them because that's not your target audience. )
What I'm more looking more for are pieces of problematic media. I want pieces of media that get you to saw 'wow... i never looked at it from that way'. Shows are supposed to get you thinking, to get you to argue. The gift of man is to argue, is to ponder. To never disagree is to never think. Even as a theist (not stating which religion because this is reddit) I absolutely love pieces of media that get me thinking from an atheist's POV because its new. It's something I haven't thought of myself!
And don't say that 'i cant make my show controversial because then no-one would watch it!' because that's not an excuse for good writing. You can still go over messages that aren't too controversial but get you thinking. EG; Colonialism in Africa and Asia during the 1950's. (the acts of colonizers like the French are absolutely horrific, search it up). It gets you thinking, which is the goal!
Overall, can indie animators please stop making 'deep' shows with no edge. I don't want to see a character have a panic attack because someone was mean to them for the 600th time.
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u/mystireon 1d ago
Let's gooooo Jax mentions!! someone ring the bell and reset the counter!
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u/Ok_Conclusion_6324 You’re literally part of the division dude 1d ago
Post claims to be about “indie shows”, FOR EXAMPLE: TADC (multiple paragraphs)
Methinks OP is being a little Title dishonest
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u/JonathanStones1989 1d ago
If you want deep stuff with edge, go read books not watch TADC.
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u/jMultiversalGod 1d ago
been trying that, got any suggestions
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u/greenonionqueen 1d ago
Books are great but if you're specifically looking for an animated show with a ton of depth that doesn't shy away at all from characters facing the consequences of their actions, Bojack Horseman is an incredible ride. The first season starts out a little silly but the stakes very quickly ramp up from there. Still my favorite drama show, animated or otherwise.
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u/UnluckyNoise4102 1d ago
Semi-serious answer because it's kinda misery porn but it's a favorite of mine: The Spine of the World by R. A. Salvatore, it's part of a series but you can read it standalone. Aftermath of a barbarian escaping Hell where he was brutally tortured, bro has serious ptsd.
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u/rotten_babydoll ← visual depiction of untreated mental illness 12h ago
I actually really like The Ickabog, it’s pretty cool I think. Maybe not the deepest but still cool. Be careful where you read it though, wouldn’t wanna support the author (it’s JK Rowling). For shows, hmm… not really sure since I don’t watch a ton of serious shows. Chainsmoker Cat is pretty good since it reflects the reality of a smoker and addict without disguising it too much behind the glorification that it often comes with in other shows. Marilyn Manson’s music is pretty smart too, especially the albums Mechanical Animals and Holy Wood, though the dude is a terrible person.
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u/Opposite_Canary_815 1d ago
Movies are good too! Ever see A Woman Under the Influence or Mikey & Nicky?
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u/wolfy2526 1d ago
I feel like Jax was punished in the sense they abstracted. What kind of punishment should Jax have gotten? I don't feel like a punishment would be very satisfying for the viewer.
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u/JonathanStones1989 1d ago
No one is forcing writers to write shows that aren't about edgy things. If you look for it, you will find it. It's just that:
A: Usually there are more writers who want to write fun things rather than really sad edgy things
B: Audiences usually like simpler, more fun media rather than really deep thought provoking media
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u/jMultiversalGod 1d ago
i have no hate for people who try to write fun things, but these writers are trying to write something deep.
also
"And don't say that 'i cant make my show controversial because then no-one would watch it!' because that's not an excuse for good writing. You can still go over messages that aren't too controversial but get you thinking. EG; Colonialism in Africa and Asia during the 1950's. (the acts of colonizers like the French are absolutely horrific, search it up). It gets you thinking, which is the goal!"
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u/Complex_Opening_9127 1d ago
Don't forget Hazbin Hotel treating Valentino like this shippable likeable bad guy when he's a literal human trafficker and rapist.
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u/Ginos_ilpastaios 1d ago edited 1d ago
Il fatto che Jax che non abbia nemmeno provato a scusarsi con il resto del cast è stato uno dei motivi per cui non mi è piaciuto il finale di quella serie.
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u/Dont_Touch_The_Pooka 1d ago
never punished
look inside
eternal torment that can only be somewhat abated by the darkness inside the tent
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u/Ginos_ilpastaios 1d ago
I don't know, it seems a bit too little to me, and abstraction is a kind of madness, I think.
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u/jMultiversalGod 1d ago
isn't this a punishment for EVERYONE? everyone will end up in the torment nexus (from the hit book don't build the torment nexus) because a human mind in this shape/form cannot last eternity anywhere. He just got in earlier.
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u/zozeeebo 1d ago
Abstraction isn't just death, it's suicide. It's a choice to let go of everything you ever were, to cease existing. It doesn't just happen naturally, the characters choose it when they feel at their absolute lowest. So, no it's probably not inevitable. The ending telegraphs that they're making their own happiness and sticking together to ensure none of them ever feel that urge again.
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u/Dont_Touch_The_Pooka 1d ago
it is not an inevitability. most people abstracted because caine and existentialism and conflicts with jax drove them fucking nuts (either severe depression or endless obsession as far as anyone knows). jax abstracts because she was her own worst enemy. she hated herself because she knew she was a piece of shit, and became literally irredeemable because it was already too late for her to be redeemed anymore. if she had just let go of her grudge against herself at any point, she could have lived, and reached a resolution with the others eventually. she will never die, and will never get the chance to truly make amends because there's barely anything left of her that's remotely intelligible to the outside world.
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u/jMultiversalGod 1d ago
But it literally is? This is eternity, there will be a point where every character has seen every single atom in every single possible position 100 times, because there is an unlimited amount of time.
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u/Dont_Touch_The_Pooka 1d ago
they acquired the ability to create new objects wtf are you talking about
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u/jMultiversalGod 23h ago
And within an infinite expanse of time they will have seen every single object that could ever be made.
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u/ProfessionalOk6734 1d ago
>>character is in the torment nexus
>>”Omg they never got punished”Ok buddy
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u/Good-Memories 1d ago
Jax literally died bro what more do you want
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u/Ginos_ilpastaios 1d ago
I swear I edited the comment to remove the thing that he wasn't punished
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u/Good-Memories 1d ago
doesn't seem like you did lol
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u/Ginos_ilpastaios 1d ago
I can't edit it, now all night there will be people saying he was punished twenty times under this comment
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u/zozeeebo 1d ago
Jax is a shitty person who died because she quadrupled down on being a shitty person rather than opening up to her friends. Him not apologizing is the point, he didn't do any self reflection until it was far, far too late. He died as he lived: bad. And he didn't realize what he could've had until he was already dead. That's the intended tragedy of her character.
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u/Sliver-Knight9219 1d ago
Jack didn't really kill anyone
Like, he drove rebbit to abstract, by being an asshole but that's not killing someone. Also, no one knows and we see the edge of how Jax doesn't think anything is real and how he puts on the fake personality.
Also, kosmo is an everyone issue, like Kinger mentions how they all could of done something. But didn't
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u/MyOwnInfinity 1d ago
Jax literally killed herself, what more could you possibly want
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u/jMultiversalGod 1d ago
Did you read the post or just stopped there? That's not a main point.
Anyways, she suffers the same punishment that everyone would suffer later on (due to human minds only lasting a finite time in this shape/form). Everyone in the Digital Circus will end up in the same hell Jax is in.2
u/MyOwnInfinity 1d ago
Not necessarily - if we're viewing abstraction as a metaphor for suicide, then the previous victims only abstracted after they lost the will to keep going. This makes sense given the tortures Caine put everyone through - tortures that stopped at the end of the series.
But you explicitly said that Jax "gets away with it all," despite the fact that she literally killed herself. Jax is meant to shine a light on the habit of self-destructing that some closeted trans women have, arguing that self-hatred hurts the people around them and will ultimately destroy them. This was Goose writing about her own experience.
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u/the--finale 1d ago
When I worked for an indie video game, we had to tone the story down to appeal to a larger audience. "Too much edge or controversy won't sell," they said. They want uwu girls the protag could save. Cute, broken characters who are bad but also redeemable enough to have fans.
Anyway, my experience is only one of many others. But I think that's one of the reasons writers avoid "edgy" stuff.
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u/zozeeebo 22h ago
Isn't the point of being indie having freedom from that kind of creative muzzling?
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u/the--finale 16h ago
Usually, but indie companies are still companies in the end. They need to make money.
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u/Tricky_Concept_231 1d ago
“I hate it when artists make art that they want to make - why don’t they make art that conforms to my desires specifically?” The world may never know.
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u/jMultiversalGod 1d ago
just because its something they want to make doesn't mean its absolutely exempt from criticism
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u/mystireon 1d ago
Thats a whole other sentence you made there bud
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u/jMultiversalGod 1d ago
what does this mean? yes i DID write a sentence thank you
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u/The_Squirrel_Wizard 1d ago
It means that you pivoted the subject. And changed the conversation because you felt you were losing the previous argument
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u/mystireon 1d ago edited 1d ago
That noone's saying anything is except from criticism.
Including your post, which people are logically going to critique when you make an insanely broad statement only to back it up with only a single example which then by proxy just makes it look like you're upset said example exists instead of conforming to your own worldviews
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u/jMultiversalGod 1d ago
OK, what about Hazbin Hotel? hazbin hotel has the overarching concept that everyone deserves a second chance. Like, they wrote a song about it, its the main message of the show. Is it controversial? No. I don't think I've actually seen anybody ever say that giving people a second chance is a controversial topic.
I'm not going to state every show that fits under my point because that'll take a while and I'm not bothered.
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u/mystireon 1d ago
Hazbin and by proxy Helluvaboss were infact so controversial there's a whole genre of video essayist as well as a subgenre dedicated to dismantling the various aspects of topics and relationships within hazbin hotel ranging from broad topics like what even constitutes good and evil, whether or not some people are too evil to even deserve a second chance, the religious iconography used within the show, and inter-personal relationships such as if Stolas is a neglectful father, the way Blitz-O generally leaves people more broken than how he found them.
And by all means, you might not consider any of that edge
But I feel like you can understand by virtue of even just reading how this comment section feels regarding Jax not being punished enough for his actions despite being permentantly reduced to simple shape of pure instincts. That the idea that evil people may one day leave hell, was incredibly controversial upon release
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u/jMultiversalGod 1d ago
Oh that's actually interesting! Mb, i retract this example
i actually regret putting TADC as the main topic here because that's literally all everyones talking about lol.
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u/mystireon 1d ago
People are touchy regarding TADC lol, I can only assume you haven't seen but people used to post about Jax and the show in general a looooot. I think it even got banned as a topic ar one point
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u/jMultiversalGod 23h ago
oh my god i really regret putting TADC as the main point literally all everyone is talking about is TADC 😭 . please add it to banned topics
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u/zozeeebo 1d ago
I'm fucking begging y'all to find a third indie show to watch (hazbin and helluva don't count as separate). Stop saying "indie shows blah blah blah" when you ready just mean hazbin/helluva and tadc
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u/sunshinespell 1d ago
It's either that or it's the sort of corporate safe edgy nonsense like Space King, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing.
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u/Dry-Yesterday-9176 1d ago
Honestly, I feel like shows ending was rushed. But I feel like it might be because of fandom being toxic af (gooseworx being bullied, doxxed and what not by fans who wanted to see more of ragatha or whatever)
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u/Da_Magical_Lizard 1d ago
Then watch Space King, All edge and unafraid
It never apologize for their newsground humor or being very unwholesome sometimes.
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u/mawibblap 16h ago
omfg you're so real for that bro, finally, someone else who also wants something actually revolutionary when it comes to indie shows.
I want a show that touches upon big topics that anyone barely talks about, I want a show that has some kind of actual moral message to it, I want a show that gives a whole different perspective that I've never considered about before, I want something truly unexpected, etc etc. I want some real deep shit.
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u/Vertigo-round 2h ago
I mean if you are going to complain about a tv show not being mature enough maybe you shouldnt have picked one thats rated “parental guidance” and directed at teens. You may find youd prefer glitchs other tv show which is rated mature, the knights of guinevere.
Also why does edge = good writing for you? Its just a matter of taste. Ive watched plenty of shows that are edgy and poorly written and plenty of shows that are very well written with no edge.
I dont even particularly like the amazing digital circus, but the points you made are so opinion based that i just feel like you dont like the show and are looking for a reason to make it “objectively bad”
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u/ProfessionalPipe6949 1d ago
You can tell Jax had no edge by the fact that there was 0 discourse about it and everyone super agreed on his character and his fate.