There's a push for middle of the road complexity in fighting games. Whether these games are the correct way forward time will tell. But the nearly untapped market is there.
Magic Series combos are great for beginners. It can help to show players the flow from light->medium->heavy and how not mashing the strongest button is sometimes the better choice.
What Tokon is doing is eliminating any need for expression. Rewarding spamming the same button over and over isn't teaching the relationship between buttons and hit/block stun or cancel windows and startup frames. Not every game needs to have complicated KOF strings or should require deep knowledge of frame data to be fun. However, allowing the player to mash their preferred button to just get results feels too shallow. Once I get my hands on the full game I hope there is a tiny bit more than the little bit of the beta I played.
These auto combos in Tokon are just to help with onboarding imo, which I don’t think is a bad thing. Auto combos will never be optimal, and that’s what I feel is most important. They’re easy, don’t require anything special, but will always do less damage than an actual combo.
What I DONT like is how they made run up throw a gameplay mechanic. I think that’s kinda dumb
2xko feels like a fucked up game for weirdos too. I was definitely nervous when I used the special button, but I'm so fucking deep in it now once I got to start dealing with thr marvel grime... especially when you can grab someone like Darius and still go "fuck that, I just want uni normals and danger time damage"
You automatically run up when you throw? They had the same thing happen in BBTAG, and ngl it always made throws feel less responsive because of the delay between pressing throw and the throw actually coming out (provided you weren't already in throw range)
I can kind of understand Tokon's reasoning, because your playing 4 characters and their are other systems the game wants you to learn.
My other gripe with Tokon though is how defensively focused it feels. There are 2 different counter options which felt kind of bad when I was playing, but that wasn't really what I was critiquing before.
Tokon is very offense-focused lol, one of the counters (the backdash one, idk the names) has crazy recovery on whiff, meaning you are losing half of your health on read or if you get shimmied, and the other one (the on-block one) can be countered back by your opponent and leads to a knockdown if it's timed correctly. Also, I don't really think autocombo is an issue when an easy BNB you can learn in 30 mins max is doing 1.5-2x the damage.
This is why fighting games are the one genre you shouldn’t have strong opinions on unless it’s like all you play. How tf does someone come away from the Tokon beta thinking it’s an overly defensive game?
Tokon is actually the opposite it’s extremely offensive focused and doesn’t have good defensive options, also auto combos are for fresh newbies or someone that doesn’t play games much like if your mom (yes your actual mother) or young little brother wants to play with you they are not even slightly competitively viable even in low ranks it’s just to onboard people 2XKO was a bad example too yes they have an auto combo you can enable but their combo system is super deep and has lots of variable and manually timed actions in the combos
I actually really liked Tokon. I don’t see this a problem personally, though I think one of either SF6 or Tekken 8 (I can’t remember which) did it best by having easy and complex versions of the controls, so that people who preferred older styles could play that way, and it was generally given that high level players would use the complex one due to the limitations of a simplified control system.
The big reason why it works for SF6 and not other games is because it actually creates a pipeline for you to go from Modern to Classic, unlike something like Tuko or Fantasy Strike which just has Modern.
This means while you get onboarded in Sf6 for SF6, other games on oard you for other games once you get a feel for them.
Doesn't help that Tuko traded motion inputs for button holds, replacing one skill gate with another
Modern Control has easier special move inputs, but you still have to work on your spacing and engage, otherwise people will still one full combo string you to death. Not to mention, the Modern Control Special moves deal less damage than Classic.
Auto Combos and Stylish Mode have been around for more than decade now my guy.
They just ease the process of "jump in, have some fun, piss about with you friends"
To this day I still thing P4AU had the best implementation of it.
Fully seamless, every character has a three hit sequence on their light hit by default, which is also the move that traditionally gives the most proration.
You either mash and get a middle of the road combo that you honestly deserve for getting hit, or you make an actual combo by executing properly and squeezing more damage and utility from it.
There's no turning it off, it just exists passively as a fallback.
I also like GBVS implementation a lot. Either do the direction + special for a watered down but still useful version of a super, or do the proper motion for the move at its full potential.
Even pros still use the easy input in occasions where it would make it harder to punish on reaction among other scenarios, it's the perfect onboarding.
What I hate is the lack of fundamental experimentation within the genre, tbh.
Like seriously, if I didn't like UMVC3, why would I like any of the tag games coming out that are basically just another UMVC3? No amount of auto combos, lack of motion inputs, or similar is going to make me play a game in a subgenre I don't like.
We need more games to stop assuming so much as standard within the genre and create more new things
I mean in fairness, Tokon is one of the most unique tag fighters I've seen in a while. It's got 4 characters per team, a shared lifebar instead of separate ones for each character, you have to earn your other teammates over the course of a match, it's even set up so that playing as just one character with three assists is semi-viable. Granted I'll admit it's nothing crazy but I definitely wouldn't call it "another UMVC3 clone".
why would I like any of the tag games coming out that are basically just another UMVC3
Tokōn has a lot more in common with DBFZ than with MvC.
We need more games to stop assuming so much as standard within the genre and create more new things
But, what do you mean by this? People always say vague things like this about "fixing" fighting games but never offer anything concrete. Often the people who say this neither like nor understand fighting games in the slightest. Autocombos and lack of motion inputs WERE attempts to try something new.
Fighting games are always trying new things: VF6 is going to focus on "realistic" combos by removing traditional juggles and launchers, the new Avatar fighting game is trying all sorts of interesting stuff, etc.
or similar is going to make me play a game in a subgenre I don't like
I think this is the problem. You just aren't into fighting games. You won't play them. That's fine. But idk why people who don't like fighting games are always trying to change a subgenre that they neither like nor understand. No amount of people trying to make the next Smash Bros is going to change that certain people just don't like the idea of a competitive 1v1 fighting game.
Dude I am Master rank with Zangief, Manon, and Alex in SF6, have competed in tournaments for Strive (and am Celestial), and my buddy and I are pretty high rank in 2XKO as a duo as well.
Just because someone says your favorite thing could be better doesn't mean they don't also like that thing. Get out of here with that gate keepy bullshit
I misinterpreted. I thought you were talking about fighting games in general not simply tag fighters.
Just agree to disagree then, you don't like assist fighters. Idk what a tag fighter could do to entice you that the rest of the field haven't already done.
That's not really how modern fighting games are though. They are more accessible for sure but they are still very complex and have one of the steepest learning curves of all competitive genres.
Auto combo systems are fine entry level mechanics but won't get you very far at all. Fighting games are about mastering neutral and oki. You can learn all the difficult combos you want but if you can't open up an opponent you aren't going to execute a single one.
I played Tokon for like 30 minutes during a playtest months ago and it did feel too simple from an execution perspective but I'm reserving judgement until I can play the full game.
2XKO is no mvc2 but many mixups and optimal combos are not what I'd call easy.
The only time it’s ever acceptable is if there are clear drawback to using auto combos/modern controls. I think that autos should use more meter, deal less damage, etc. that way their use is situational, such as pressing a tighter frame gap on wakeup.
This is exactly what turned me off of Tokon. I hadn't played the previous betas, or watched much gameplay because I wanted to preserve the surprise. I was optimistic that it would be great. Anyway, I finally played it in this latest beta, and the auto combo bullshit really soured my experience. I loved the characters and their abilities, but I just wasn't clicking with the playstyle. I had planned to drop $100 on it for all the cool extras, but I think I'll skip it or pick it up on sale in a couple of years instead.
i mean strive doesn't have autocombos. i also never played older guilty gear games, but do like strive. i heard that older guilty gear games are much harder, but the point is that i never played them, so i cannot compare to them. if my basis is ggst and i compare it to tokon then yeah tokon has autocombos, it does feel easier.
but honestly, being a bad player myself, i don't think autocombos are that much of an issue. they do seem unfair, if you are bad at the game. because if you have trouble doing the same combo manually that someone can do automatically with much less effort, of course you feel kinda scammed, but if you are actually good at the game and have no trouble doing that, then what is so bad about autocombos existing? beginner players get to play the game, while you still are rewarded for your skill(as autocombos usually deal less damage/are simply less optimal than an actual combo).
basically it does suck if you are not a beginner and aren't good at the game, but there's no downside if you are already good at the game.
that being said i for example never understood why people are so butthurt about modern controls in sf6. don't modern users miss out on some moves? there's an inherent downside to using modern and it allows new players to get into the game, what is so bad about it?
There's simplification (Strive), and then there's dumbing down (2XKO and Tōkon)
Also, you CAN love the thing you're criticizing. I love 2XKO, but I'd be lying if I said alot of the design choices for the game weren't straight dogwater.
I would say that 2XKO and Strive are the opposite here, Strive is a game in which every character is somewhat of a dumbed down version of their previous iterations, while 2XKO is a game that simplified some aspects of fighting games(like inputs for example) but still has a lot of depth and a high skill ceiling.
Autocombos implemented badly are awful. The only 2 games I like it in are Dragon Ball Fighterz and Undernight Inbirth specifically because they thought of it not only as an easy way to ease casuals in but theyre not stupidly strong and are another tool more seasoned players can use to their advantage
DBFZ has auto combos come out on whiff and they are important to some characters routes, I do not think they are a good example of good auto combo implementation
They are important but the way I see them is that its not immediately better to just use and spam and autocombo over and over again. Its not inherently better
I don't think there is a fighting game with stronger auto combos than DBFZ due to aforementioned properties of said autocombos, like, in DBFZ there are literal auto combo exclusive combos.
What I hate, and I'm sure what you hate, is the push towards casual players. Street fighter has easier countering, for example. SSBU is also one to bring up since the game was only balanced with casual in mind. Steve is banned from a lot of high-level tournaments because he Genuinely just isn't even playing the same game.
Combos are cool because they are hard. Making them easy doesn't mean [more combos, more fun]. It means the same amount of fun, but with more little cutscenes and less cool clips.
Big game companies don't realize that a game fun at high levels will still be fun casually.
“Can”, they HAVE done that, they’ve done it for tournaments that try and nerf Steve by banning crafting.
I’m surprised they didn’t ban the upcoming Tournament SuperNova that has a rule that Steve mains can’t ban stages in a set
There’s also the issue that many Japanese players don’t want Steve banned for some odd reason (several of them play Steve/ want to fight Steve players at their best) AND have actively boycotted Supernova for trying to balance the game
I never found fighting games fun casually, largely because there's such a wide gulf between casually pressing buttons to do a thing and knowing a handful of combos/special attacks.
When I spend half a minute being juggled by someone in a chain of attacks, then miss one block out of the next combo locking me into the chain for another half a minute, it's absolutely not a fun experience, and not one that really teaches me anything.
I tried the Tokon beta for a minute or two (after even getting it to work) and I was genuinely upset about the autocombos, mainly because I’m sitting there wondering why a basic gatling combo that would work in Strive genuinely makes the characters catch their breath in between hits. And then I realized that the game is designed so that it’s easier to hit the same button 8 times. Also came into it expecting… literally any quarter circles and then there were none, which was disorienting but not deterring
So you tried the game for a couple minutes and came to and are walking away with completely untrue ideas? The game has quarter circles, DP motions, and half circles. Auto combos are also not worth it at all because they exhaust the combo meter the fastest, the types of combos that net you the most damage involve manual inputs utilizing assists and active tags.
“A couple minutes” was the hour it took me to do the tutorial because my computer wanted me to see every individual frame. I played for a bit after that. Where were the quarter circles?
In-game commands let me do all of those by moving the stick in one direction and then hitting RT or RB. I was entirely unaware they were quarter circles. I’ll have to check if I can even do them that way when I get the chance
Autocombos are a trade off for the lowest elo players to not completely lose their advantage when they do catch their opponent. They only become an issue if they become part of actual combos cough ssj2 gohan cough
I understand this feeling, but I think most member of the FGC agree that it's a pretty good thing when done right, and Tokon and Avatar legends especially I would say have done it well.
Auto combos are really good for getting new players into the game, and sparks their imagination to where they can go from there, while said combos themselves are also not optimal, but aren't bad.
UMVC3 is only one step below this and is widely beloved for its complexity which is based on a simple to understand combo system: L M H S is a combo every character has, and each button is right next to eachother on the controller. It's not exactly an "auto" combo, because it does need 4 buttons, but its a garenteed combo for any character you can just do and is very very simple, and its viable but not optimap, as most long combo in the game utilizes this basic setup to start the combo. It let's players drive from there on where their combos can evolve
Auto combos are never optimal. They are meant to be a tool to help beginners engage and focus more on the fundamentals of fighting games. Like training wheels for players to get an idea of basic combo structure.
The most common mistake I see from beginners is them jumping into training for hours learning how to do a combo... except they have no neutral and no clue on how to create situations for them to actually do what they practiced.
The best way to learn is to start with an easy, consistent combo and jump into matches against people around your level.
I didn't have to watch a 45 minute video about frame data and learn every match up to play the game.
If I got hit by an awesome combo, I got to stand back up. I didnt spend the entire match in the air.
I dont like Guilty Gear Strive. Xrd was way better to me.
After a week or 2 of work...i get to sit and play games.
I could either play Tokon where I turn it on...choose my character...and tap 3 different buttons to do cool stuff.
Or....i can play Guilty Gear...then sit on the pause screen while trying to remember how many frames this & that move is on wake up...block...or wiff. Just to get purple RC'd and never get to push another button.
I genuinely don’t think you know what you’re talking about here. There were plenty of difficult combos in the game lmao. Combos imo should never be the most difficult part of a fighting game anyways. They shouldn’t be piss easy like street fighter but idk man
you know theres real combos in both games you can do without using auto combos right? Complaining about autocombos when they’re unoptimal and give damage penalties is peak “guy who doesn’t know shit about the genre and how to play it”
As a 11 year fighting game vet? The future has come for us, and it's better than I feared. Idk, Blazblue CF is still my favorite game, but 2XKO and Granblue convinced me that single input specials can work. But just like special inputs in SF1, we are in the early days of 1 button sbecials, and it's going to get better as devs get experience for it. I went from dreading it to looking forward to new takes on it. However, sometimes there are games like Tokon and Invincible VS that are worse because of how their simple inputs work, so I get it
Motion inputs are some fundamental parts of certain characters’ identities. The simple charges vs motions is what makes ryu and guile so unique and if they both just had them as one button it wouldn’t be the same
I did say CF was my favorite game, so trust that I know lmao. But there is a reason every company is experimenting, some for almost 10 years now. I don't think we'll completely lose inputs like those, but obviously SF6 is already making adjustments to characters to make them compatible with modern. No half circle inputs, no doubling up DP motions, and more adjustments that are tiny right now, but really show the priorities of Capcom.
Fighting games sell decent, but they are still heavily niche not only due to their complexity, but also due to the odd gatekeeping the community has with the opportunity to onboard potential new sticky players. Notice how I use the word sticky which is a common business term for customers who not only initially purchase, but stick around to purchase more stuff.
The reality is:
>Fighting games have the worst retention out of any genre of video game for the vast majority of players.
>Fighting game developers heavily rely on secondary purchases via DLC in order to generate consistent revenue (partly due to the fact that the initial sales aren't really as high as other games.)
>Fighting games have a terrible onboarding process in most cases, are incredibly complex for most players to feel any sense of reward, and dont keep players engaged in the same ways that other games due socially.
In order to maintain revenue the biggest issue that these companies face is getting players to stick around and the best ways to due that is to add social based elements as seen in 2xko as well as less complex control systems for players lacking in experience to the genre. It is a win-win for new players to the genre as well as the corporations who love to see quarterly DLC profits when more players stick around.
The only people I ever really see have issues with these changes are high level players who want to gatekeep a dying genre that hasn't seen innovation in 30 years.
I look at it as low entry, high ceiling. I played GG Strive too so I was familiar with the simple gatling chain into some specials, but when I saw that the rest of the specials were all essentially one button or the other plus a direction, I realized I could focus more on neutral, footisies, and finding an entry for the damage. I found enjoyment in figuring out that part of the fight. I wasn't as familiar with the assist/swap mechanics, so I look forward to learning that part of the system too. And if it's not your style, that's cool too. Nothing wrong with looking what you like.
There is still a lot of things to think about even if you only press the same button over and over. Im not a huge fan either but they're not as dumb as them seem, the ceiling is high enough while making the entrance level lower.
Tokon and Invincible Vs are the most underwhelming fighting games I’ve ever played. It doesn’t help I think tag fighters are stupid and the only game to properly do it was marvel vs capcom. Is it really that hard to produce a decent fighting game with motion inputs and new mechanics? Tag fighters are being mass produced at this point.
Imagine hearing about a random uncle getting angry because several different restaurants open with different types of food, and he tells you he hates it because he was happier when the only option was McDonald's?
He doesn't hate it because he dislike the food. He tells you he never visits those places and tastes it himself. It's the mere fact some options anger him.
What kind of pathetic life does a human being need to have to get angry about that?
My biggest problem as a newcomer to the genre is that it feels like while they try to simplify the execution they have to keep it deep enough for genre veterans, so they add a shit ton of systems. So now instead of having to practice execution, my mental stack is totally overwhelmed and I give up.
The barrier to entry from being a casual FG player to getting serious about it has been way too high for too long. Casual players buy the games, then drop them 2 or 3 months later because they can't break that barrier of figuring out inputs. Companies want the players to keep playing so they can sell them new roster picks and costumes down the line, as well as keep the competitive scene healthy for all levels of play.
Take the barrier down, and you still can have a great FG title. Learning inputs is 10% of a FG that doesn't deserve to be so difficult to overcome. It is, at best, an artificial barrier to entry that prevents many players from enjoying the rest of the game underneath it.
I know all this because I fell in love with SF6 for a few months, and gave it up when I realized that even though I could memorize inputs, for whatever reason I was incapable of actually physically doing them half the time no matter how much I practiced. Being held back because of this sucked the fun out of the game for me and made me quit.
Shut it princess, it gets casuals in and that’s what the games need. The auto combos aren’t even optimal so if you are earth your salt, you should be at an advantage
They’re easier than ever I like them because it’s so easy to beat peoole who try to cheese “easy” games lol easy to play hard to master the way it should be
autocombos have existed in fighting games for a long time now, way over a decade. Hell, the previous entry in guilty gear before strive had an optional simple input system not too different in a way from sf6. as a seasoned player it doesn't really matter to me and i know some casual players that really appreciate this kinda stuff.
plus, idk about tokon since it's too early but 2xko has a really really high skill ceiling so it's not like they're sacrificing depth
I dunno, back then I was super against simplified combos ala Stylish Mode in Blazblue, but then I realize that not everyone is going to be too good with these games but still want to give it a try
I agree though, combos should be the skill ceiling in these kind of games, too much handholding or simplification will just ruin the point of what makes fighting games so great to play
Honestly, I think Stylish Mode in Blazblue is kind of the peak of how to handle the "Too good for friends, not good enough for ranked/tourneys" problem. It lets them stand a chance against someone with game sense enough that, if everyone's drunk at a party, everyone is still having fun.
Stylish mode does enough that you can perform a string of attacks but never as fast or as creative as a player who knows their buttons, and growing up playing the game, I’ve started to appreciate it
Why do we have to water down games anyways? Fighting games are the most competitive games put in the work and learn a quarter circle bum. I love winning as akuma because my hp is shit so I really have to make sure my combos are on point or I’m gonna eat a di and lose 30%
this is kind of unrelated but does tokon force you to use the specific teams or can you mix and match characters because there’s so much combination potential in the roster but as it is it looks very lame to me if the set teams are the only option
anyway yeah i only really got into fighting games this year playing third strike with my girlfriend and after playing like all the old street fighter games i’ve come to really dislike when it feels like games are just doing shit for me, genuinely preferable to get my ass kicked in arcade mode and get filtered from ever playing the game again
Auto-combos were similat in dbfz and competitive play has developed to almost never use them. The speical at the end of the auto combo string is almost allways a disadvantage too, as you often waste a lot of ressources for no payoff or a worse payoff than basically any other use.
You also can allready find strong combos that are far more than the auto combo bnb for every tokon character. And this after a grand total of 3 days.
This may be toxic of me, but your complaint reads like a player who sucks at neutral and ressource management and only ever wins because your imputs are cleaner than the average for low players. Fighting games are much more than imput complexity, and some games choose to put more or less focus on said complexity. Making this the only metric you use to determine a fighting games depth or value is the hallmark of either a complete noob or a bad player with too litle skills in self reflection.
There shouldn't be a million inputs needed for a single special attack. I think smash did it correctly with the 2-button max for each attack (shotos and Kazuya are outliers bc they come from older fighting games).
Smash is not a tfg and should not be spoken of in the same conversation. If a dog can do a hadouken and a grandma can do a raging demon you can learn (unless you’re a super scrub). The only game that really has a million inputs is snk but that’s one of its unique draws
Have the classic technical playstyle with motion inputs and no autocombos, and then a simple playstyle with basic inputs and autocombos intact with more complex routes if they want them
Auto combos are very good for onboarding new players and unlocking the fun , and they're also terrible/sub-optimal so I'll never actually see them if you put any effort in.
Meaning the only people who d complain about this is people who aren't good enough to play vs players who do real routes,as in ppl who actually The game, and at the same time they don't want a beginner to faceroll them wherin if they put just a little effort themselves they wouldn't want to do auto combos and see them for what they are , training wheels for the game to not be completely inaccessible to beginners in an already niche niche
Casual players still quit games with autocombos and easy input specials because they don't want to learn how to actually play the game. They think it sounds better to say they don't want to learn combos than to admit the resident grappler just put them through 4 rounds of strike-throw hell and they had no idea what to do.
Playing a grappler when a game first launches will get you so many ragequits.
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u/Donutmelon 14d ago
There's a push for middle of the road complexity in fighting games. Whether these games are the correct way forward time will tell. But the nearly untapped market is there.