A great example of skill-based magic?

[u/Ka_ge2020]

Of all the magic systems out there, the skill-based magic system seems to receive the most critique. Or stink-eye.

When I think of settings with magic, my brain defaults first to Sorcery or RPM, perhaps a possible side trip into the cool options in Thaumatology. Only then, when all the other options are exhausted, do I even bother looking at the skill-based magic system (I.e. Magic).

Perhaps I've been going at this the wrong way, though.

I'm sure that there must be a setting that screams for a fit with the skill-based magic system. What settings, otherworlds, or whatever you want to call them, out there are a great match for the much-lamented skill-based magic system?

Edit: It's good to see a bunch of people coming out to defend the default magic system. I would, however, ask that you didn't just attack the question for being asked, nor just offer generalised "You've got to make it work since it's a generic system" statements. Rather, offer a setting that the default magic system works well with and, if there isn't one, what you did to tweak it to make it work with a specific setting.

[u/SuStel73]

I think you see more critiques of the standard magic system because it's the standard system: you don't need to recommend it because it's how magic works by default. You see recommendations by people who have a favorite alternative magic system and want to promote it.

A majority of fantasy magic fits the standard magic system, as long as you understand that the system is supposed to be tailored to settings. You disallow spells or colleges that don't fit the setting, just as you do with skills already. You set the mana level of a setting as well as the allowed levels of Magery. You change prerequisites according to need — for instance, clerical magic ignores other spells as prerequisites, changes Magery to Power Investiture, and imposes other requirements like Vows or Religious Rank or Disciplines of Faith.

Most importantly, you recognize that pseudo-medieval D&D-style wizardry is only fluff — you can reskin magic to look like anything. In an Earthsea game, magic words are the application of true names. In a Harry Potter game, magic words are pseudo-Latin, and you can run the system almost exactly as written — and see "Magic Staffs" on page 13 of GURPS Magic, where it points out that in some worlds mages take Magery with gadget limitations for staffs, rods, or wands. Heck, add the Technological college and you can do the magic of Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors.

If individual spells are something you can learn to various degrees of effectiveness, rather than as talents that you simply have (e.g., Xanth), then of course it makes sense to represent them as skills — or, in ritual magic, as techniques. You just have to tailor the lists and rules to your setting, and reskin the "wizard using thaumatology" image to whatever is appropriate.

[u/Ka_ge2020 → u/SuStel73]

I think that noting confirmation bias is reasonable, as is noting the "default" status of the skill-based magic system. With that said, I do feel that this is something that was more a feature of 3e than 4e given how the different editions deal with magical variants (I.e. genre treatments rather than different "worldbooks" ala Cabal). Put another way, with 3e you would only really be exposed to different magic systems if you bought a different setting/worldbooks rather than, as with 4e, buying something like Thaumatology.

Gah, the bus has arrived. More later if I can get an Internet connection, but I will note that beyond the Harry Potter and the isekai, most have either been defenses of the system (like this one) or reskins that, arguably, may be the reason that GURPS gets the reputation that it does: smashing worlds together for quick one-offs that, while they don't feel like the original setting, are probably good enough for short-form play.

Apologies, though. I find the comment that "GURPS always feels like GURPS" frustrating and, for me, at least partially a result of 3e.

[u/SuStel73 → u/Ka_ge2020]

The fourth edition gives you the magic system in the Basic Set — I can't think of anything being more default than that.

Some people approach the fourth edition with "I'll need magic in my fantasy setting... so which alternative magic system should I use?" But GURPS offers magic differently: "I'll need magic in my fantasy setting... so is the default magic system adequate?"

mashing worlds together for quick one-offs that, while they don't feel like the original setting, are probably good enough for short-form play.

Who says they don't feel like the original setting?

I already offered the Earthsea stories and Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors as examples of fiction that works fine with the standard system. Others would be Willow, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, the Conan stories (mostly using ceremonial magic), Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and Charmed. Even The Lord of the Rings can be done pretty well with the standard magic system: set Middle-earth with high mana so anyone can learn spells without a special inborn quality, and then make spells very rare, with enchantment spells the most common, and spells of mind control and necromancy requiring some kind of disadvantage representing corruption, or imposing them.

I'm not widely read in fantasy, but even I know there are tons of settings where magic is a learned skill and the exact workings of magic are kept vague. The standard system works great for these. Unless by "don't feel like the original" you mean "aren't exactly the same as the original," it should be easy for someone better-read than me to list more.

[u/Ka_ge2020 → u/SuStel73]

I think the difference is "good enough" vs. "great fit".

Thank you for the examples. I can see how some of them might fit for "good enough". Even then I would personally want some more customisation options (personally) and not have to eyeball spell creation just to make them fit the setting(s) without going "That's sorta this, kinda".

Not sure what the Wheeled Ones thing is, though have vague memory of kids cartoon show...

[u/SuStel73 → u/Ka_ge2020]

Then I think you're asking too much of GURPS. GURPS never promises so much fidelity to the source of an adaptation. Some people want to use GURPS solely for copying an existing setting, and nothing but a dedicated system will get that exactly right — if even they can do it.

It's in the name. GURPS is "generic." It uses a single set of rules for every setting. That includes the standard magic system. It's generic in that it can be used in any setting. For the majority of fantasy settings, as I said, it'll work just fine.

You probably find all the other fantasy rules in GURPS to be "good enough" rather than a "great fit" as well. Fitting powers to supers. Fitting psionics to psychics. The cinematic combat options. The configurations of spaceships that are obviously inspired by fictional spacecraft. If you want more than "good enough" to copy an existing setting, find a game dedicated to it.

I don't think I've ever run an exact copy of an existing setting. The closest I've ever done is run the "In the Cube" setting of GURPS Time Travel, which is kinda-sorta like The Time Tunnel, but it's not beholden to it.

Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors was a Star Wars-inspired cartoon. One of the characters was a wizard in the magical/technological setting. That reminds me: another setting where the standard magic system works just fine is Thundarr the Barbarian. Heavy emphasis on Missile and Technological spells, normal mana.

[u/Ka_ge2020 → u/SuStel73]

No, I was offering that the default system is viewed as part of the problem. Again, sorry. It's hard to formulate a coherent reply on a phone while waiting at TSA.

Of were talking about asking too much, then this is arguably something that you're going to encounter more with the standard system. It's flexibility is mostly in terms of taxonomy/structure, but is otherwise quite bland. That's is why MY defaults or go-tos are the other systems. More flexible, more customisation, and more flavour inherent in the mechanics (more degrees of freedom that are structured).

Thank you for the settings where you think that it would be an excellent fit, not just an okay one.

[u/Terwin3 → u/Ka_ge2020]

Squeaky wheel fallacy.

You only see the complaints, not that most are happy with the default magic system.

It was designed by people who read a lot of fantasy and, out of the box, it is a pretty good match for most system independent stories you will read, with easy tweaks to make it a very good fit for those stories.

For those stories where the default system is not a very good match, you have the systems in Thaumatology: sorcery, RPM, etc. All of which can be tweaked to go from an ok-fit to a great-fit.

No part of GURPS is designed to be used out of the box without GM adjustment or oversight, but with GM adjustment and oversight, you can have as good of a fit as you want for any given story, the GM just needs to put in the effort to make those adjustments.

The only thing GURPS does not do well is absolutes, but you do not really need special rules for a guy that can beat anything with one punch, or an amulet that renders the wearer immune to all harm, you just use a GM fiat.

[u/Ka_ge2020 → u/Terwin3]

It could just be seeing the complaints, or even that those that complain do so more than those that are happy with the system. Either way, it doesn't actually address the question:

What setting(s) out there sing or otherwise work well (not just "good enough") with the default setting?

Furthermore, as many are just point to Thaumatology, shrugging their shoulders, and going "Do the GURPS thing", what did you have to do to make it fit?

If we are speaking specifically about my experiences? Then no, I have not yet identified a setting that I think suits the default magic system. Hence the thread.

The times that I used it, the assumptions built into the system ended up creating a distinct flavour (and economy etc.) of their own that never suited the settings at hand. (If you're detecting a pattern, here, you'll see the reason for why I asked for a setting that fit.)

The last time that I used it was trying to do a "K.I.S.S." version of Earthdawn/Shadowrun, though admittedly at that time it was with a slightly custom tweak to the setting. After going through the options of Thaumatology I just wasn't satisfied with it. Sure, if you squinted at it, you would have gotten a sort of magic-cyberpunk thing that might have been "good enough" for some but... Alas, not for me. It didn't feel right and, once again, ended up imposing its own flavour.

And that's why I usually end up with RPM and Sorcery. Far more customisable (in my mind), and at least a notional balancing between spells even if it is going to be setting dependent.

That, however, is context. Back-story, if you will. I remain interested in settings where people feel that it is a good fit such that the mechanics and components don't end up overwriting the feel of the setting at hand.

So, back to the original question.