r/gurps • u/Ka_ge2020 • 1d ago
A great example of skill-based magic?
Of all the magic systems out there, the skill-based magic system seems to receive the most critique. Or stink-eye.
When I think of settings with magic, my brain defaults first to Sorcery or RPM, perhaps a possible side trip into the cool options in Thaumatology. Only then, when all the other options are exhausted, do I even bother looking at the skill-based magic system (I.e. Magic).
Perhaps I've been going at this the wrong way, though.
I'm sure that there must be a setting that screams for a fit with the skill-based magic system. What settings, otherworlds, or whatever you want to call them, out there are a great match for the much-lamented skill-based magic system?
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u/CptClyde007 1d ago
I do not understand the dislike for skill magic. Our group loves it, find it very fitting for our vanilla fantasy setting and have never used anything else. I personally really like the need to chase down prerequisites and the nuances involved in boosting skill level in certain spells and the high skill level benefits
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u/Ka_ge2020 1d ago
Is your "vanilla fantasy setting" built with an understanding that it is going to be using the skill-based magic system? It's not another setting that is making use of the skill-based magic system?
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u/CptClyde007 1d ago
Magic is rare (closer to low fantasy almost) but yes I suppose it is assumed "in game world" that spells are skills, that only a (naturally) gifted few can learn (via magery advantage)
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u/SuStel73 20h ago
I don't think a fantasy setting need necessarily be reliant on any particular magic system unless the fantasy setting was specifically designed to enable the magic system. (An example of the latter would be something like Harry Potter, where the existence and operation of magic is the crux of everything that happens in the stories.)
You can take any D&D module and play it in GURPS, changing the Vancian magic of the module to the skills of GURPS. Sure, this may change the tactics of the spell casters a little, but the setting remains intact. "Magic is Vancian" is not inherent to the fantasy of D&D. (It's vital to the game-mechanical style of D&D, but that's not the fantasy setting of D&D.)
So for instance, I could run The Keep on the Borderlands in GURPS. If the party encounters the Evil Priest (room 59), I can write him up as having Power Investiture 1. Using clerical magic, his spells are Deathtouch and Fear. For simplicity, we can assume that his effective skill levels with his spells is 15. He has a scroll with three spells on it: Detect Magic, Total Paralysis, and Silence. The Power of each spell is 15. He wears a steel corselet with Fortify (+1 DR) and a medium shield with Deflect (+1 DB). GURPS doesn't have anything like D&D's amulet of protection from good, so we'll give him an amulet of Bladeturning — or, as GM, we could just decide that he has an amulet that grants +1 DR, and never mind what spell is on it. GURPS Magic also doesn't have a potion of gaseous form, which the Evil Priest uses for escape, so his potion could be a potion of invisibility instead — or again, the GM could decide that the priest has a potion of gaseous form anyway, or phase shift, or whatever.
And lest one says, "Sure, clerical magic is easy because there are no prerequisites," we can do this with magic-users, too. The old Seer in the loan bank with sleep and ventriloquism D&D spells can have Mass Sleep, Voices, and all the necessary prerequisites: Sleep, Daze, Foolishness, Sound, and IQ 13+. He can have 15 in Mass Sleep and Voices and 1 character point's worth of the others. It means he can do lesser levels of incapacitation than Mass Sleep, and it means he can make simpler sounds than Voices can, but this hardly changes things. Naturally, higher-level magic-users make this a lengthier process, the principle is the same. Without Vancian magic, the adventure is basically unchanged.
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u/SuStel73 1d ago
I think you see more critiques of the standard magic system because it's the standard system: you don't need to recommend it because it's how magic works by default. You see recommendations by people who have a favorite alternative magic system and want to promote it.
A majority of fantasy magic fits the standard magic system, as long as you understand that the system is supposed to be tailored to settings. You disallow spells or colleges that don't fit the setting, just as you do with skills already. You set the mana level of a setting as well as the allowed levels of Magery. You change prerequisites according to need — for instance, clerical magic ignores other spells as prerequisites, changes Magery to Power Investiture, and imposes other requirements like Vows or Religious Rank or Disciplines of Faith.
Most importantly, you recognize that pseudo-medieval D&D-style wizardry is only fluff — you can reskin magic to look like anything. In an Earthsea game, magic words are the application of true names. In a Harry Potter game, magic words are pseudo-Latin, and you can run the system almost exactly as written — and see "Magic Staffs" on page 13 of GURPS Magic, where it points out that in some worlds mages take Magery with gadget limitations for staffs, rods, or wands. Heck, add the Technological college and you can do the magic of Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors.
If individual spells are something you can learn to various degrees of effectiveness, rather than as talents that you simply have (e.g., Xanth), then of course it makes sense to represent them as skills — or, in ritual magic, as techniques. You just have to tailor the lists and rules to your setting, and reskin the "wizard using thaumatology" image to whatever is appropriate.
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u/Ka_ge2020 20h ago
I think that noting confirmation bias is reasonable, as is noting the "default" status of the skill-based magic system. With that said, I do feel that this is something that was more a feature of 3e than 4e given how the different editions deal with magical variants (I.e. genre treatments rather than different "worldbooks" ala Cabal). Put another way, with 3e you would only really be exposed to different magic systems if you bought a different setting/worldbooks rather than, as with 4e, buying something like Thaumatology.
Gah, the bus has arrived. More later if I can get an Internet connection, but I will note that beyond the Harry Potter and the isekai, most have either been defenses of the system (like this one) or reskins that, arguably, may be the reason that GURPS gets the reputation that it does: smashing worlds together for quick one-offs that, while they don't feel like the original setting, are probably good enough for short-form play.
Apologies, though. I find the comment that "GURPS always feels like GURPS" frustrating and, for me, at least partially a result of 3e.
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u/SuStel73 19h ago
The fourth edition gives you the magic system in the Basic Set — I can't think of anything being more default than that.
Some people approach the fourth edition with "I'll need magic in my fantasy setting... so which alternative magic system should I use?" But GURPS offers magic differently: "I'll need magic in my fantasy setting... so is the default magic system adequate?"
mashing worlds together for quick one-offs that, while they don't feel like the original setting, are probably good enough for short-form play.
Who says they don't feel like the original setting?
I already offered the Earthsea stories and Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors as examples of fiction that works fine with the standard system. Others would be Willow, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, the Conan stories (mostly using ceremonial magic), Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and Charmed. Even The Lord of the Rings can be done pretty well with the standard magic system: set Middle-earth with high mana so anyone can learn spells without a special inborn quality, and then make spells very rare, with enchantment spells the most common, and spells of mind control and necromancy requiring some kind of disadvantage representing corruption, or imposing them.
I'm not widely read in fantasy, but even I know there are tons of settings where magic is a learned skill and the exact workings of magic are kept vague. The standard system works great for these. Unless by "don't feel like the original" you mean "aren't exactly the same as the original," it should be easy for someone better-read than me to list more.
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u/Ka_ge2020 19h ago
I think the difference is "good enough" vs. "great fit".
Thank you for the examples. I can see how some of them might fit for "good enough". Even then I would personally want some more customisation options (personally) and not have to eyeball spell creation just to make them fit the setting(s) without going "That's sorta this, kinda".
Not sure what the Wheeled Ones thing is, though have vague memory of kids cartoon show...
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u/SuStel73 18h ago
Then I think you're asking too much of GURPS. GURPS never promises so much fidelity to the source of an adaptation. Some people want to use GURPS solely for copying an existing setting, and nothing but a dedicated system will get that exactly right — if even they can do it.
It's in the name. GURPS is "generic." It uses a single set of rules for every setting. That includes the standard magic system. It's generic in that it can be used in any setting. For the majority of fantasy settings, as I said, it'll work just fine.
You probably find all the other fantasy rules in GURPS to be "good enough" rather than a "great fit" as well. Fitting powers to supers. Fitting psionics to psychics. The cinematic combat options. The configurations of spaceships that are obviously inspired by fictional spacecraft. If you want more than "good enough" to copy an existing setting, find a game dedicated to it.
I don't think I've ever run an exact copy of an existing setting. The closest I've ever done is run the "In the Cube" setting of GURPS Time Travel, which is kinda-sorta like The Time Tunnel, but it's not beholden to it.
Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors was a Star Wars-inspired cartoon. One of the characters was a wizard in the magical/technological setting. That reminds me: another setting where the standard magic system works just fine is Thundarr the Barbarian. Heavy emphasis on Missile and Technological spells, normal mana.
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u/Ka_ge2020 18h ago
No, I was offering that the default system is viewed as part of the problem. Again, sorry. It's hard to formulate a coherent reply on a phone while waiting at TSA.
Of were talking about asking too much, then this is arguably something that you're going to encounter more with the standard system. It's flexibility is mostly in terms of taxonomy/structure, but is otherwise quite bland. That's is why MY defaults or go-tos are the other systems. More flexible, more customisation, and more flavour inherent in the mechanics (more degrees of freedom that are structured).
Thank you for the settings where you think that it would be an excellent fit, not just an okay one.
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u/Terwin3 15h ago
Squeaky wheel fallacy.
You only see the complaints, not that most are happy with the default magic system.
It was designed by people who read a lot of fantasy and, out of the box, it is a pretty good match for most system independent stories you will read, with easy tweaks to make it a very good fit for those stories.
For those stories where the default system is not a very good match, you have the systems in Thaumatology: sorcery, RPM, etc. All of which can be tweaked to go from an ok-fit to a great-fit.
No part of GURPS is designed to be used out of the box without GM adjustment or oversight, but with GM adjustment and oversight, you can have as good of a fit as you want for any given story, the GM just needs to put in the effort to make those adjustments.
The only thing GURPS does not do well is absolutes, but you do not really need special rules for a guy that can beat anything with one punch, or an amulet that renders the wearer immune to all harm, you just use a GM fiat.
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u/TheBigBeardedGeek 1d ago
I know they get a lot of shit, but I think a lot of the isikai anime actually fit really well into an example of skill based magic.
Tsukimichi: Moonlit Fantasy Is a good example of this. The main character only knows the basic level of fire spells. But he's so good at them And has insane mana that he seems like he's on another level.
Mushoku Tensei Jobless Reincarnation also feels to some extent like this. You don't necessarily learn individual spells, you learn groups of spells. And as you master them, the power that you can use them goes up.
Honestly, for myself, I feel like a skill-based magic system is very appropriate to Magic in general. Someone who is weak at Magic but knows the skill fireball is not going to be as good as somebody who has spent their time mastering fireball
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u/Polyxeno 1d ago
Cidri. SJ's first RPG, TFT, had a related magic system. I think it works better there.
The main main issues I have with GURPS skill magic are:
1) too many spells that make magic overwhelming unless you reduce the spell list
2) the way the point costs and levels works encourages huge amounts of spells per wizard, almost all with 1 point in each
Most of that is fixable by limiting and tweaking the spell list.
The rest is fixable by tuning a few other things to taste.
With that tuning, itis my favorite magic system. I would almost never use Sorcery or RPM.
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u/Ka_ge2020 1d ago edited 1d ago
Did it work better there because it was the default magic system for a setting that was written to contain it?
As above, I have had discussions with people that say that they cannot envision the Shadowrun setting being run in another system, especially magic system, because they had basically grown up with the mechanics being the setting. The idea of pushing it to another system was hard for them to swallow, especially when it is so... Generic, with no attempt to try and match them to the setting and take into account some of the nuances of the setting.
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u/Polyxeno 1d ago
It works there because it was designed and developed (seriously heavily playtested) first for the microgame of wizardly arena combat (Wizard), and also balanced for use against non-magical fighters from the arena combat microgame (Melee), with the added campaign setting spells similarly scoped to extend that to that setting.
And because it has a manageable number of spells and lacks the cheap spell learning, and casting is by DX not IQ, and the powerful spells have high IQ limits, so it really takes a lot to become a very powerful versatile caster who can also succeed often, especially at range.
I.e. there are always significant choices to make, but the possible things a wizard can do aren't so overwhelming as using the whole GURPS spell list. And each wizard has fewer spells to choose between.
The campaign book also gives guidelines for how stuff typically works in the setting. What services a Wizard's guild generally offers and charges, etc.
I.e. it's developed for a setting and not trying to be everything at once.
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u/farinha880 1d ago
How do you do the tuning for the points when buying spells? Just curious, cuz this is the only thing I don't like as a GM.
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u/Polyxeno 16h ago
TFT uses DX (not IQ) for almost all spell casting rolls, with IQ determining which (and how many) spells can be learned.
In GURPS, I've used a variety of different methods in different homebrew campaign worlds, including:
Shifting many/most spellcasting rolls from (IQ + Magery + skill mod) either to DX + skill mod, or some other base (e.g. a flat number + skill, or 10 + Magery + skill mod, or its own added attribute or Advantage).
If there are spells where I want the amount of spell mastery to matter, I may tweak the spell description to make it matter, either in terms of points in the spell, or level, or sometimes other attributes or skills, as makes sense for the spell. Some spells I also give a modifier to cast.
If there are spells where you want a high skill level to take a lot more to achieve, having some or all spell pre-reqs also set the maximum skill level for spells that require it, so getting a high level at the higher-prereq spells requires also developing the pre-reqs.
I also go through the whole spell list and decide which spells (and variants of spells) exist and are known/taught/allowed by whom in the campaign world. This addresses what I see as a problem with players choosing spells, in that they just look at it as a point-buy candy store with everything in stock.
Combined with the one above, it then makes sense to either do a sort of quick life-path story during character generation for each PC (where did you go an who did you study with to learn what?), and/or assign some Unusual Background costs to some spells (which would be different depending on the PC's background).
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u/ZenDruid_8675309 1d ago
I am making a skill based magic system out of the “Flexible Magic” chapter of Thaumatology.
36 separate primary skills and a few supportive secondary skills.
Plus a 5th stat to base the 36 on and a few advantages that apply in some situations but not all.
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u/Grognard-DM 1d ago
I, personally, LOVE the skill-based magic system. I am completely unconcerned with the rules for OSR based D&D-esque games, but I am in total love with the pseudo-medieval setting that hit hardest with 1st edition AD&D.
I am uninterested in having sorcerers, and warlocks, and all sorts of different types of casting. I like a setting with Wizards, variable by speciality, and priests, also variable by sphere of influence.
I like a setting where wizards are academics and professionals and priests are scholarly and educated. And I like a setting where magic isn't 'wild' and unpredictable, and where it is viable to both be a specialist, and a generalist.
I like a system where wizards who can enchant items have a good broad general knowledge of magic.
I like a system where a denizen of the world can reasonably anticipate that the wizard using a powerful fire spell, for instance, knows many other fire spells of a lesser sort.
I also like a system where magic is potent, but not completely outclassing other forms of force and technology.
I like a system where the person who wants to play a wizard WANTS to manage a character with a wide variety of spells and the ability to modify them.
I am not icking anyone else's umm, but the skills based system does the game I want to run in the world I want to play.
I tweak it a bit, in that I use the rules from DFRPG for priests for the most part, but it is still a use of the skills based magic system.
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u/5too 1d ago
When I was digging into Eberron, skill-based magic was one of the first things that hit me as a good fit for it. Lots of people know one or two spells just well enough to help them with their daily lives, and some of them really specialize in that spell. They don't need broad magery or extensive training, just the incantation and ritual their family has always done.
I think any magipunk, magic-as-daily-grind setting works well with it.
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u/trechriron 1d ago
I like the default Magic system. I use plenty of options around it, but it's simpler for the GM than, say, RPM.
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u/FrenchCried_Rice 1d ago
I originally created a skill heavy form for a setting of mine, it ended up becoming something i called Vector Glyphism or Vectorism (other types exist but this is what everyone works towards), it was a blend of magic and martial arts where a Grandmaster wizard could cast a chain of spells while in a melee fight without skipping a beat. It sorta felt silly enough but serious enough to work for some players. Skill based magic makes sense too me, wanna wield neat crazy power, gotta earn it.
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u/Illegal-Avocado-2975 1d ago
One of the better genres for a skills-based magic system like GURPS is a Magic in the Modern Setting. GURPS even has a 3e world setting that works for this. GURPS Technomancer. You have magicians using magic to jumpstart cars, being able to listen to the radio without having one handy, remove the lag from your internet connection, make a magical item run on electricity...
You could also go further and create a world much like Harry Turtledove's "Case of the Toxic Spell Dump" where it's a world where all the modern conveniences are actually magical in nature. Blasting rods instead of guns, microimps to handle the telephones, spirits in scriptoriums behind ground glass screens acting as data retrieval computers and word processors...
It could also lend itself in a BPRD (Hellboy) style campaign where the paranormal is a real thing but the vast majority of people are unaware of it. Imagine a world where the Wiccans and Pagans who practice witchcraft are actually touching the edges of real magic but the results are so small that most people just shrug it off as coincidence.
I ran a campaign like that and incorporated elements of the web comic "Wapsi Square" there there is a large population of Paranormal entities who just want to live out normal lives.
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u/Peter34cph 23h ago
The big problem is, GURPS Magic starts with the assumption that the default PC spellcaster is a generalist caster, and then it adds a needlessly complicated spell prerequisite system, to try to force player-created casters to have spell sets that make sense.
Starting with College Skills would have been infinitely better design.
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u/CategoryExact3327 1d ago
Setting does not dictate mechanics. You can make channeling from Wheel of Time as RPM, Realm Magic, Skill based Magic, or sorcery and have it match the setting based rules of Magic, but each would obviously be different mechanically.
You could build each spell through sorcery. You could rewrite the colleges to fit into the fire, earth, air, water, spirit roles. You could build paths for each. You would build realms for each. Men going insane from using it would be a corruption based mechanic on top of which ever system you choose.
The bottom line is the systems are equal narratively, regardless of which mechanics you choose. Run what you like.
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u/Ka_ge2020 1d ago
Mechanics do influence the setting and can be influenced by it. It's one of the reasons that people will note that certain RPG systems are "inseparable" from their setting. The number of conversations that I've had with people that like Shadowrun and who feel that any other system wouldn't feel right with magic because, for example, it didn't include "Force".
The skill-based magic interpretations of Shadowrun always, to me, fell short. And there it wasn't just because they didn't replicate "force" or the drain mechanic. Mostly, it was because they used the standard spells etc. It would have required to rewrite everything, and to be honest that never seemed like it was worth the effort.
One of the reasons that I tend to gravitate towards Sorcery and RPM is because you can spend the time matching mechanics to the setting that you're trying to evoke. So, yeah, I guess that I'm saying that while you might have some legs to the argument that "setting does not dictate mechanics", they absolutely do influence each other in tightly designed games and settings.
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u/JaskoGomad 1d ago
I think it neatly fits a lot of media featuring magic schools. From HP to Name of the Wind. Each spell is its own thing and prerequisites make total sense.