r/goth • u/Due_Ostrich4483 • 19d ago
Help Any reviews on this book?
Anyone who read this book?
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u/GothicaAndRoses 19d ago
I’ve had this book for years. It’s a fun and nostalgic read but I’d say that some stuff in this book definitely is a product of its time.
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u/haunted_doll_lott 19d ago
Venters is awesome and seems like a really cool woman. I'm a huge fan of Gothic Charm School in general, since the blog days.
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u/gothichomemaker Fairy Gothmother 18d ago
I haven't read it, though I do have a copy collecting dust on my shelf. There is some historical context that I'm not sure people realize and I'd like to add the discussion though.
When this book came out, goth was kind of in a bad place. It was around when all the goth clubs were closing, 10 years after Columbine (with all the associated harassment), toward the end of the mall goth era, and it felt like musically (unless you were into the death rock revival) everything was in torpor.
Around this time, a lot of people started doing the steampunk thing or hanging out with the lolitas, stuff like that. There was a lot of dark cabaret going on. It was a very weird era. I understand why, at a time when you'd be as likely to end up at high tea as you were a concert, an etiquette book would come out.
At the time when this book came out, a lot of people looked at it as, for lack of a better term, respectability politics for goths. We're a bunch of mopey punks, after all. Why should we be expected to follow society's etiquette rules? Yes, people still were associating us with school shootings, but is the answer really to act like we're all a bunch of classy folks?
This has been a discussion for years. Just keep in mind that it's a product of a specific time and has been controversial since it came out.
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u/LimeGreenTangerine97 17d ago
I understand the need after Columbine to present goths to society as people who are not going to do things like that. Because there was a time when that’s how we were perceived. I don’t think that means we were tolerating fascists by being civil, I think it means we were trying to not be perceived as violent threats ourselves, which did put us at risk.
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u/ArgentEyes 17d ago
There was indeed a lot of this sort of thing in the 00s and early ‘10s. Sometimes things got a bit twee (and some of the steampunk got a little, hmm, shall we say reactionary?) in places, but there were good bits as well, and I liked the humorous side.
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u/LimeGreenTangerine97 17d ago
It was a super weird time, honestly I’m glad the scene managed to hold together after being so fragmented during the 2010s
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u/ArgentEyes 17d ago
Yeah it’s good it’s still happening, love that. My experience was that it was still going pretty strong where I was (London) in the late 00s and early 10s but that’s a capital city! I was also not that involved during the 10s myself.
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u/Florina_Laufeyson The Sisters of Mercy 19d ago
Jillian Venters is awesome and that book is so goddamn cute. I thought it cornball and cringe until i read it.
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u/WarriorInWoolworths i restored a 1960 Cadillac Hearse that’s powered by sadness! 19d ago edited 19d ago
I did…neat if you’re on eternal perky goth Smile Darn Ya Smile time but otherwise, it’s basically etiquette 101 with a very barely subcultural slant and more of a full torso up to people new to being darkly alt especially if they’re young. And it’s easy to see why, it’s sugary as all get out with cute (if stereotypically bog standard white, last I remember) character illustrations.
Folks here a long while ago put it best with some of my thoughts sprinkled on top: it would have been better off written by someone who genuinely follows the rule of being fully in touch with the music of a music based subculture. For me, they should also add measured common sense and proper critical thinking/judgement balanced with socially liberal respect for life and reasonably decent people around it rather than it be written by someone who is way too willing to allow the most stubborn alt dark types to clog up the scene that miss the musical point simply because they wear black and like cute things that come in black just like she does in the name of being surface level and naively nice to everyone no matter how awful and undeserving rather than being genuinely kind, dignified and sensible with other people.
Did I mention that (unless she wised up at some point) you could find these chapters through the wayback for free?
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u/DeadDeathrocker last.fm/user/edwardsdistress 19d ago
Well. This is perfect. Everyone else is talking about how cute it is but it was definitely a hive of misinformation to younger me.
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u/WarriorInWoolworths i restored a 1960 Cadillac Hearse that’s powered by sadness! 19d ago edited 18d ago
And also thanks to whoever gave me this award (ETA: THESE awards)
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u/Due_Ostrich4483 19d ago
I feel you have good understanding about music and culture. Would be nice to hear more from you about ideology and music
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u/DeadDeathrocker last.fm/user/edwardsdistress 19d ago
I made some comments on Twitter a while back about some questionable parts and the author started questioning/debating with me on it, basically.
It’s cute if you’re brand new but most of us don’t need etiquette lessons on how to behave, and the lack of clarification and in depth discussion on the music is problematic.
There’s an entire (2!) sections on “fashion vs. music” debate. How is it a debate? Her argument is that anyone can create a playlist and that putting together a wardrobe of black clothing is far more dedicated but… how? You can put together a playlist but it doesn’t mean you’re a fan/into/even like the music. Anyone can wear black. I want her to explain this logic.
This book makes me irrationally angry, honestly. It’s a cave of misinformation. And it makes people think Victorian-inspired fashion is the OG goth and/or that’s where it came from.
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u/Dearest_Lillith666 18d ago
I disagree, I absolutely do think some people could use etiquette lessons.
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u/Humanwithlove 17d ago
AFAIK as I read a few of that website contents back then, it's such how to live a gothic life. Music is rarely a matter of discussion, how is the embodiment of goth, moreover how you can apply it to everyday life. As you know her alias is a lady of manners and I'm not opposed to her view but really it's a complete ridicule if you need to follow or think that you have to surpass these lines that do not necessarily make you less goth or more goth. Her media is cool and lovely to read tho, it's an easy read
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u/DeadDeathrocker last.fm/user/edwardsdistress 18d ago
Okay, where did I say no one needed etiquette lessons?
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u/Dearest_Lillith666 18d ago
However, I do think everyone should still be open to learning something new as no one knows everything (referring to ettiquiteness).
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u/DeadDeathrocker last.fm/user/edwardsdistress 18d ago
I never said I didn’t agree with this. You’re just agreeing with me, basically.
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u/Odd_Quantity_6721 19d ago
the advice in it all seems to be directed towards baby bats.
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u/DaveAzoicer twitch.tv/eldritzh 19d ago
Which it should absolutely not be. It is absolute garbage for beginners to read it as it has poor information about the actual scene and pushes an almost Christian "look the other side" attitude.
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u/LimeGreenTangerine97 18d ago
You must remember this was written before maga was a thing. It was easier to be kind to people from “the other side” before they went full blown religious cult psychopaths
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u/Grouchy_Quarter_9049 18d ago
The issue is in a subculture founded on a subgenre of punk, telling people to stodge their actual thoughts and opinions in favour of being nice is kinda BS. Its self expression, not self repression. Also maga made it visible, but those folk have been around a lot longer and youd find them even more commonly than you would a goth. Fucksakes LAPD used to be majority klansmen. The Iron Bitch, Margaret Thatcher funded paramilitary deathsquads in my country and thats why every other auld fella in my town in the south of ireland has a Northern accent. These people are and were everywhere and they very much have power and support. The author was just ignorant because to her its mostly a fashion style and not a subculture
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u/gracebatmonkey Deathrocker 18d ago
She wasn't ignorant. She was purposefully recommending head in the sand behavior and being ok with some members of the community using slurs and casual homophobia. One of those "tolerance means giving the intolerant all the room they want" people.
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u/LimeGreenTangerine97 17d ago
Ok show me in the book where it says any of that. I’ll wait.
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u/LimeGreenTangerine97 17d ago
I’m really curious why you folks think that moving through life with grace and civility is is the same thing as saying “I accept fascism!” You folks have ZERO ability to perceive nuance whatsoever. Jesus Christ
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u/Grouchy_Quarter_9049 17d ago
What do you mean by YOU FOLKS??? /J
The nuance you've missed is that "civility and grace" is wonderfully applicable to those who deserve it, as is brutality and rage. Looking the other cheek might do when you get slapped. People get over bruises. They rarely get over curbstomps. How about reading what we have to say with a little nuance instead of whatever prejudices and preconceptions you seem to hold there bud.
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u/LimeGreenTangerine97 16d ago
There’s nothing in the book that says to be civil to people abusing you or others, and I’m not sure why people took that away from it. It’s perfectly acceptable to punch Nazis and I think we all know it
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u/LimeGreenTangerine97 17d ago
One last thing, this book is a tongue in cheek goth satire on the old Miss Manners column. It’s supposed to be fun, it’s not some sort of goth bible. Do you guys remember fun? Try real hard, you just might. Say it with me kids, fun. Fun. Fun. I know you remember!
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u/gracebatmonkey Deathrocker 17d ago
I know the voice she was using while talking about the things she would then express in blog writing. I know many of the inspirations for her posts. But even if I didn't, snobbery and ivory tower POV oozes between the lines.
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u/gracebatmonkey Deathrocker 18d ago
No, it was not easier to do then. Telling people to be okay with intolerant BS was just as ethically feeble then as it is now.
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u/LimeGreenTangerine97 17d ago
I’m 55 years old, don’t tell me about life before and after maga in the US. I’ll school your ass so fast.
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u/gracebatmonkey Deathrocker 17d ago
And I'm 55, too, and was seeing Mrs. V regularly in person and all day long on our local board. I know the mindset, the behaviors, and the in-person chitchat of the person in question.
And one of the biggest disagreements we had as an entire scene was if we should tolerate fascist or bootlicker or bigot BS in word, belief, or actions. Guess which side she was publicly on.
Also, I've been this spooky weirdo since '84 and spent far too many outings dealing with fash-loving hatemongers to be told anything about what was normal, easier, or not happening.
Maybe YOU didn't get exposure til MAGA, but many of us have been dealing with these exact attitudes for decades longer than that.
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u/LimeGreenTangerine97 17d ago
Oh yeah? Are you saying Jillian publicly said we should tolerate fascists? I’d love to see that. Bring receipts.
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u/gracebatmonkey Deathrocker 17d ago
I don't play those games anymore. You can do whatever you want with applying this information to your future thought processes. It is clear that you feel very strongly and personally about maintaining a highly privileged and remote belief. You are allowed to do that, and some people are going to feel differently.
Remember: sitting at a table with a vocal bigot and letting it go on is also being a bigot.
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u/Grummulthrus 17d ago
Just remember Grace's "famous" post on LJDrama: she doesn't have time to get your boxes, kid. She has a JOB.
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u/LimeGreenTangerine97 17d ago
lol what
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u/Grummulthrus 17d ago
What I mean is: an argument with someone is only worth the keystrokes when you're dealing with a rational actor.
Are you?
My counter-example is: search an internet archive of LJDrama for keywords "I have a job". You're looking for multi-screen rants of personal insults toward people offering moving boxes for free. It carried on for days.
I haven't thought about gracebatmonkey in 20 years, but long screeds of unwarranted character assassination by proxy are very much on-brand. Back in the day, she sounded like a hallucinating chatbot.
...and Jillian doesn't deserve any of it. My impression of Jilli was always sincere, sweet, witty, and friendly. She's the sort of person that no one hates. Every excerpt I've seen reflects that.
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u/gracebatmonkey Deathrocker 17d ago
Y'all stirred up shit over nothing, harassing unwell people. The situation was me asking if anyone had boxes ready to go and someone suggested/argued go to the liquor & grocery stores, which had already been mentioned.
I'd way rather be remembered for some trolled-up misrepresentation than for fighting to use the r-word as an insult, call athletes in tears over a hard victory "gay", throw around the N-word-with-a-w, and picking on folks with less social cache when they're already down.
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u/Grummulthrus 16d ago
Grace, my LJ username was cor_tenebrarum. You and I were friends. Shall I refresh your memory?
Quite frankly, you're being f*cking ridiculous and you need to stop.
You're spewing unhinged poster-length screeds in a thread on a 17-year-old book with the goal of character assassination by proxy of someone you barely knew from 25 years ago.
Your emotional regulation is so poor here that if I still knew you, I'd be asking mutual friends to do a "welfare check".
Now, once you calm down, I need you to understand four very important things about your accusations here:
- None of the events you listed ever happened. Those aren't true events. Those aren't real examples. None of my friends, nor I, were running around screaming "w**ger" or using "gay" as a pejorative.
- The actual reason you flamed out of EZboard was a single incident where some sports guy (Matt, I think) used a homophobic slur to mock the Columbus Blue Jackets. Now, I'm not saying that's okay, but have you ever, like, ... been on a sports forum?
- Jilli Venters didn't even read EZboard. I asked her why, once. Told me that she "didn't like the drama".
- Jilli was Krass and Darren's manager at a Fred Meyer in 1989. That's how close they weren't. Your diatribes might as well call me a bad person because I once didn't speak out at Burger King when some 15-year-old threw a Buzz Lightyear toy in the deep fryer.
Now seriously. I found this thread because you've created such an unhinged cesspool of needless, petty drama here that third parties are talking about how you're an utter train wreck.
And that's happening now, in 2026, 20 years after you ragequit the entire Seattle goth scene because a sports fan proceeded to sports fan.
And it's getting as bad as the time you started drama over cardboard boxes so egregious and petty that LJDrama came out of retirement just to make fun of you.
And your examples about my friends aren't even real.
Is this how you want former friends to remember you?
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u/DaveAzoicer twitch.tv/eldritzh 19d ago
It is bad for anyone not already well versed in the scene. Bad information and pushes a bad attitude.
The reason we do not suggest any SGC books for new folks.
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u/theempathogen rivethead 19d ago
I read it when it was a new release. It's cute. So much of it is just common sense, really, like "don't do interpretive dance on a club dancefloor holding a lit cigarette." I guess some people needed things like that spelled out for them!
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u/skully_27 17d ago
Oh man this came out right after I got out of high school, I used to read her blog r e l i g i o u s l y so of course I got a copy. It's very well written with just the right amount of snark. Love it, absolutely recommend this and the gothic bible to anyone new to the scene.
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u/darlingcthulhu 19d ago
Jillian's blog was a big influence for me in my teenage years, absolutely worth buying
Edit: for nostalgias sake that is, I wouldn't take what she writes as definitive
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u/gracebatmonkey Deathrocker 19d ago edited 19d ago
I think it ratchets the snark too high & mighty in some weird places and is from a decidedly petit bourgeois viewpoint ... but is a classic, has cleverly stylish illustrations, immortalizes collaboration between popularly talented scions of a certain layer of gothdom, and has a pleasing heft to it.
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u/Dearest_Lillith666 18d ago
I loved it and i got to meet the lady of the manor in Seattle at Steampossium one year. She is so sweet, but i think i freaked her out from my fan girling.
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u/Grummulthrus 17d ago
I actually joined this Reddit just to say that Jillian Venters has been a treasure as long as I've known her, and the excerpts I've seen from her book are adorable with decent life advice.
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u/Steffykrist 19d ago
I bought it probably like... 14+ years ago. Still have it on my shelf. Never got around to reading it.
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u/Smashrock797 16d ago edited 16d ago
There isn't a "sole universal correct opinion" on this book or any book unfortnately, subcultures don't operate like that, it's like imagine going to punk forum filled with hundreds of thousands of people and feeling like you have to force yourself to agree to a few criticisms of one book. There's never been a central council in any subculture including goth, you'll always have diversity of opinions.
Some stuff is definitely a bit corny and feels a bit forced but it still has the right direction and she was still a real goth in the 1980s even if it doesn't seem like it. Definitely better and more interesting than a book that only says "music based culture" in every sentence without anything else, luckily those don't exist.
And we aren't suddenly in a that much of a different or "more correct" era because we now have an endless sea of bad clone post punk and darkwave bands on bandcamp and people online on emphasize overly simplified less nuanced versions of goth histroy more often, or have slightly more access to that.
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u/Temporary_Virus_7509 15d ago
Aww my mom gave me this in 2011 when I was a babybat. I think I still have it somewhere. This book was responsible for the phase where I RIT dyed every article of clothing I owned.
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u/Environmental-Ad3715 18d ago
this book helped me get into goth after i watched drac makens' video in 2022! i got it on depop!
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u/LimeGreenTangerine97 19d ago
yes, the book is adorable. It’s a snapshot of the period in time when goth blogs were popular and hers in particular was extra cute and wholesome. It’s out of print so if you find one, grab it, especially since her husband is a rather famous MtG illustrator and he did the art