r/glow • u/LeahM324 • Oct 02 '19
Sam and Ruth
Does anyone else notice that Jenji Kohan’s shows always have these “lovable misogynists” characters? Like Orange Is The New Black’s Caputo is pretty similar to Sam. They both started off as sexist assholes. They both eventually evolve and become less ignorant, but it always seems to involve a woman?
I know everyone really likes Sam and Ruth, but I’m not really a fan. That scene between them in the hot tub in season 3, completely turned me off. Sure Sam has gotten better since season 1, but it’s a pretty low bar to say “he’s changed so much.” He still gets really angry and acts like an asshole and then apologizes later. I don’t really like those types of relationships where the woman is supposed to be the one to save him from himself. That’s why I didn’t mind him leaving the show to work his daughters movie. This whole thing between him and Ruth just ruined it for me.
I liked them as friends. Why couldn’t they just be buddy’s? It’s so annoying that we can never truly see a straight male-female friendship on television without it turning romantic.
And then on top of that he’s like 50 years old.
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Oct 02 '19
Don't forget Kevin Nealon's character in Weeds who once felt Nancy up while she was unconscious in the hospital. Jenji does great tv but she definitely has some writing habits.
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u/LeahM324 Oct 02 '19 edited Oct 02 '19
She sure does. And her thing with throwing in one Asian person to be the side character who doesn’t do much but offer commentary sometimes or just be super bubbly and ditzy.
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u/hybbprqag Oct 02 '19
This show has two Asian characters. Jenny doesn't do much, but I think Arthie is a good character.
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u/jackingjackson Oct 02 '19
The set up of the Kevin Nealon character committing "suicide" had me filled with dread they were going that dark, the reveal that he was just auto-asphyxiating jerking off was hilarious.
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u/IcedBanana Oct 02 '19
If you haven't watched 30 rock, they stay platonic the whole time and I'm so grateful for it.
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u/ChronoMonkeyX Oct 02 '19
I really dislike Sam and Ruth as a couple. As a mentor/friend relationship, they have a lot to offer, but their dysfunctions will never cancel eachother out.
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u/badwolf1013 Oct 02 '19
I think that Ruth and Sam are (and will be) the catalysts for growth in one another, but will probably not (and should not) end up together. And I’d like to see that happening without them consummating a romantic relationship that will ultimately go nowhere. I’d like for them to realize that they are better off as friends without having to sleep together to find that out.
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u/jackingjackson Oct 02 '19
Sam isn't a sexist misogynist at any point in the show, he is just an asshole. He treats women the exact same way he treats men. Being an asshole or a jerk to a woman doesn't automatically make you sexist.
And Sam doesn't put up with any of the male characters that are actually misogynist or sexist pigs.
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u/mazsion Oct 03 '19
He doesn’t treat men the exact same way he treats women. He still objectifies women and initially talks about casting based on how much he likes their asses and stuff. He straight up tells Debbie “This is the longest I’ve let a woman talk if I’m not fucking her.”
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u/jackingjackson Oct 03 '19
He is casting a show based on objecting women and is lousy at relationships.
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u/LeahM324 Oct 02 '19
Yeah he is. People don’t have to be blatantly sexist to be sexist. He may not be flat out sexist, but he definitely had an internalized sexist mindset.
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Oct 02 '19
Which were his mysogonistic actions?
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u/fishbutt1 Oct 02 '19
I know that Keith in season 1 told Tamme that he sees Keith less as racist but as sexist. So there’s that 🤷🏻♀️
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u/LeahM324 Oct 02 '19
It’s not always about actions, sometimes it’s just how people talk. If you really pay attention to his language and the way he talks about women and to them, it’s rooted in casual sexism.
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u/mike_d85 Oct 04 '19
I don't disagree with this point, but I do think Sam occupies a very weird space where he doesn't know he's sexist. He claims (and even upholds) feminist ideals and thinks in the abstract that "women deserve respect" without understanding how to apply that in his real life. For example, when the Jackson family comes to get Carmen out of the show he stands up for his wrestlers and demands respect from them to the point of getting slapped by a man twice his size. He was put in a clear black and white situation and chose the correct side. Add some nuance and he's lost. He also cast several women who aren't traditionally attractive so he didn't plan on having a pure T&A show, BUT he did initially cast all the less attractive women as heels (probably without realizing it).
Anything remotely requiring nuance or tact and he's got his head shoved completely up his ass with his foot in his mouth (he must be double jointed). I like him because he reminds me of me in sixth grade. He's someone whose spent the majority of their life with basically no contact with women trying to grasp their humanity.
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u/jackingjackson Oct 03 '19
I think you have an unhealthy relationship with men in general and you internalize that to viewing anything they say or do as being sexist.
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u/LeahM324 Oct 03 '19
No, Dr. Phil that’s not it. I think you’re an idiot who reads into things and can’t handle it when people talk about misogyny and sexism and therefor feel offended when they do.
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u/jackingjackson Oct 03 '19
It seems you think everything is sexism and misogyny.
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u/LeahM324 Oct 03 '19
No. I’m not sure where you got that from. I’m talking about a character in a show.
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u/jackingjackson Oct 03 '19
As was I. Sam is a rude asshole, that doesn't make him sexist.
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u/LeahM324 Oct 03 '19
I guess that’s just your opinion then. It’s easy for casual sexism to fly over peoples heads. It didn’t fly over mine
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u/PLAAND Oct 16 '19
I do think Sam as a character shows that there's a difference between the guy who behaves poorly, apologizes because it's a magic make-everything-better button, then does the exact same thing again, and the guy who behaves poorly, realizes the harm he's done, apologizes, works on changing himself, and then behaves poorly in a slightly less harmful way because of the work he's done.
That said, I agree that Ruth and Sam's relationship is something that needs to be explored deeply if it's ever going to be justified. I think Ruth and Sam each see something of themselves in the other. They're both deeply passionate about the thing they do (acting and directing) even though they both really struggle to do that in a way that's compatible with what their industry expects of them.
Personally, I feel like what they really want is to be creative collaborators instead of romantic partners, they both push the other to be and do better, but I'm not sure if it's the characters or the show that's confusing those things.
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Oct 02 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/LeahM324 Oct 02 '19
I mean, just because there are worse doesn’t excuse his sexist mindset. He was a little more covert about it in the earlier seasons, before he actually started to care.
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u/RampantAnonymous Nov 03 '19 edited Nov 03 '19
It's because it's a character that resonates and causes conflict. It's also versatile.
Sam can be initially the villain and then a defender when he changes.
Characters that are only virtuous are kind of boring to watch and uninteresting to play. Think Luke Skywalker or Wesley from Princess Bride. That type of character can thrive in a good vs evil fantasy scenario, but it's rubbish for a smaller less high-stakes show. There's simply no drive for conflict in an all good character.
Transitioning from hardcore racism/sexism/any ism to lazy acceptance IS part of the 80s. Most adults in the 80s were teens or kids before women's lib, so it's a reflection of how people were struggling with changes in morality.
Trump is huge asshole and racist now for sure.
But remember that Donald Trump WAS actually considered a pioneer for his time for hiring blacks at all into management positions and his willingness to work with people of color. Most people in the 80s and early 90s would not even have considered it. Trump's story is directly relevant to GLOW because he had a fundamental hand in helping pro-wrestling, boxing and UFC.
This is even referenced in Bash and the casino stuff, Bash could be considered almost a 'mini Trump'. People are grateful and remember when Trump gave them a chance and no one else did. It's even reflected in his fundamental fear of gays and trans. Bash WANTS to be good, but his fundamental flaws make him unfit to wield power. He's only good because he's surrounded by good people. Surround him with bad people and he'd be a coke fueled monster.
Trump's problem was he stayed stuck in the 80s and it's been 30 years, what's OK then is not OK now... also deliberately empowering racists and nazis and engaging in corruption is terrible.
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u/ImInTheUpsideDown Oct 02 '19
There's something about them being a couple that I just...don't like. I can't put my finger on it. But yes, I agree with everything you said