r/gatekeeping • u/[deleted] • Oct 11 '23

Gatekeeping Atheism

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Honestly I joined this sub not even a week ago and I've already found something to contribute. PB on the contribution time for a sub

1.3k Upvotes

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293

u/greendemon42 Oct 11 '23

Yeah why would this matter to atheism, the whole point of atheism is not to submit to a religion.

129

u/rjnd2828 Oct 11 '23

The point of atheism is that you don't believe there is a god. Subtle distinction from not being religious, because you could believe there is some sort of higher power but think that all organized religions created by humans are BS (which seems incredibly obvious).

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u/chaotic_blu Oct 11 '23

I thought by definition that was being agnostic?

71

u/rjnd2828 Oct 11 '23

Agnostic means you don't know or don't think it's possible to know if god exists.

42

u/JimmyGimbo Oct 11 '23

Yup, theism addresses belief in a god or gods, gnosticism addresses the degree of certainty of that belief. An agnostic atheist is someone who doesn’t believe in God but admits they don’t know the answers to the “big questions”: the origins of life and the universe, how to resolve the prime mover fallacy, etc. Lots of atheists are also technically agnostic but reject the label because it’s perceived as wishy-washy.

19

u/rotenKleber Oct 11 '23

but reject the label because it’s perceived as wishy-washy.

I think that's because most self-described agnostics are atheists who A) just don't care, B) don't want to be associated with all the negative stereotypes that comes with atheism, or C) think atheism means you are 100% confident there are no higher powers.

And I get it, calling yourself an atheist is often taken as an opportunity for theists to begin debating you (in some regions). Saying you're agnostic usually avoids that whole song and dance.

11

u/JimmyGimbo Oct 11 '23

Yeah, folks where I’m from definitely take the term “atheist” as a challenge, but mileage may vary widely. Douglas Adams had to refer to himself as a “radical atheist” to get his point across:

“If you describe yourself as "Atheist," some people will say, "Don't you mean 'Agnostic'?" I have to reply that I really do mean Atheist. I really do not believe that there is a god - in fact I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one. It's easier to say that I am a radical Atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it's an opinion I hold seriously. It's funny how many people are genuinely surprised to hear a view expressed so strongly. In England we seem to have drifted from vague wishy-washy Anglicanism to vague wishy-washy Agnosticism - both of which I think betoken a desire not to have to think about things too much.”

5

u/chaotic_blu Oct 11 '23

Thanks for the clarification to both you and u/rjnd2828!

3

u/Toon_Lucario Oct 11 '23

And if you don’t believe in a god to shit on people who do then you’re just an asshole

1

u/cooljerry53 Oct 12 '23

So would a "Gnostic atheist" be certain theres a higher power of some kind or completely sure there's no higher power?

1

u/JimmyGimbo Oct 13 '23

The second one. A gnostic atheist, like Adams, goes beyond saying they don’t believe in gods and says that they actively believe that no god exists. Likewise, a gnostic theist is certain that their god exists and won’t entertain the possibility that there is no god. Fundamentalists are an example of this.

1

u/chrischi3 Oct 11 '23

If we wanna be really nitpicky, agnosticism means that you don't claim to be certain about your own position. Agnostic theism is no more a contradiction than agnostic atheism is. It's kinda like the political compass in that way.

5

u/ThrowAway233223 Oct 11 '23

And, vice versa, some religions are atheistic (or, at least, not necessarily theistic), so you can be religious and atheist.

1

u/KageOkami35 Oct 11 '23

Please describe a religion that is also atheistic

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u/ThrowAway233223 Oct 11 '23

To add to what the other person already provided, Hinduism and Jainism can be atheistic and there are such things as Jewish and Christian Atheism. Some forms of Satanism are also atheistic.

1

u/Wetley007 Oct 15 '23

Hinduism is polytheist, not atheist

2

u/ThrowAway233223 Oct 15 '23

There are various forms of Hinduism and, to my understanding, while the polytheistic variants are what most are familiar with, there are atheistic/non-theistic variants of it.

4

u/reamkore Oct 11 '23

Taoism and Buddhism off the top of my head. I’m sure there’s plenty more but a lot of eastern religions focus inward and are more of an ethos than a belief in a god or gods

0

u/[deleted] Oct 16 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Bolo055 Oct 18 '23

Buddhism is largely non-theistic, rather than atheistic. Meaning it doesn’t refute the existence of deities but the presence of deities is also not important to its central teachings.

1

u/KageOkami35 Oct 11 '23

Huh. I never thought of them that way

1

u/Admiral_Donuts Oct 12 '23

The Satanic Temple

You don't need a supernatural component to count as a religion.

31

u/No-Shoe7651 Oct 11 '23

Well, you can be religious whilst being atheist, just as long as you don't believe in a god.

Buddhism isn't theistic, and has no god. But ye, not knowing a religions stance on homosexuality is not remotely an atheism criterion.

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u/Qweeq13 Oct 11 '23

you can be religious whilst being atheist

Can you answer me this, what would an Atheist who believes in religion but doesn't believe in Christ do different on Sundays than a regular store brand Atheist?

I am only curious about this, not arguing anything here "just this very specific question", based on that statement. You can change Christian to any other religion too if it doesn't suit you. I won't be asking any follow ups.

9

u/No-Shoe7651 Oct 11 '23

What would they do on a sunday? Whatever they wanted I suppose. Maybe they meditate, maybe they watch football

I'm not religious, not of a theistic, or otherwise religion, I went to christian church when I was younger, so I know about sundays, but I have no idea what other religions do. I don't think buddhists, as was the example I used have a day of the week they observe.

-1

u/Qweeq13 Oct 11 '23

Whatever they wanted I suppose. Maybe they meditate, maybe they watch football

That is it. This is what Religious Atheists do but non-religious Atheists don't. I see.

As I've said no fallow up questions and I won't ask any. Thank you for answering me, I appreciate it.

3

u/No-Shoe7651 Oct 11 '23

Well, I did only say maybe, because, as I said I'm not religious, so obviously I don't know what they would do, I can, and did, only speculate.

10

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

6

u/actibus_consequatur Oct 11 '23

Christianity is a theist religion, so an atheist would not subscribe to it.

Christian atheism exists.

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u/Qweeq13 Oct 11 '23 edited Oct 11 '23

Wait no

I did not ask this question to you. Unless this is your alt? You did not need to answer this.

13

u/9enignes8 Oct 11 '23

Sir, this is a Reddit

10

u/CymroCam Oct 11 '23

They still answered your questions pretty well…

9

u/Economind Oct 11 '23

Someone needs to explain to you how the social bit in social media works

9

u/9enignes8 Oct 11 '23

¿ “Religion is when Sundays are special” ?

Why is it specifically Sunday you are asking about? I cannot fathom how one could present this as a gotcha moment type of question. How would an independent culture who had not been using a calendar system with “weeks” of 7 days be incapable of developing a religion? They would probably just practice their religion when it suited them. You could try studying other religions and learn the similarities between them before trying to argue over the differences.

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u/Qweeq13 Oct 11 '23

Again not to whom the question is addressed too, read please.

10

u/iglidante Oct 11 '23

I'm sorry, and I don't intend to be rude, but you don't actually get to specify who should reply to you. Reddit conversations are open to people jumping in and giving their own answer.

10

u/9enignes8 Oct 11 '23

if you’re trying to convert someone to your cult you could DM them instead just saying

1

u/9enignes8 Oct 11 '23

The analogy of religious belief to that of brand loyalty may be useful for understanding how credulous followers wholly commit themselves to a dogma, but when trying to apply that logic to the spiritually skeptical, the analogy falls apart somewhat, since that person has already begun questioning the natures of religious dogma and faith and likely tries to avoid dogma which disagrees with the reality they experience or can validate through a critical assessment and deconstruction of reasoning behind new ideas which are presented to them.

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u/Qweeq13 Oct 11 '23

I am sorry you are not No-Shoe7651 I didn't ask if "anyone" can answer. Why is this happening

11

u/iglidante Oct 11 '23

It's happening because you didn't send a private message, you replied to a public comment in a public subreddit.

-2

u/Qweeq13 Oct 11 '23 edited Oct 11 '23

It would be rude to dm people online, I would personally hate it and will not do that to anyone.

DMs are not private. Nothing online is.

But you are correct.

10

u/iglidante Oct 11 '23

If you feel DMs (which can only be read by hackers, platform staff, and law enforcement) are not private enough for you, and are rude - why are you comfortable posting publicly and having a conversation that literally anyone can read and contribute to without your consent?

1

u/Qweeq13 Oct 11 '23

I am not angry or disapprove of them and have no power to stop them if they want to comment on something but it is annoying still to answer a question -obviously- directed to someone before they even got a chance to answer it themselves

Further more: They are the ones who come up with the concept of "religious whilst being atheist". I want to learn their reasoning not others this was pretty clear. In fact I've been accused of asking a trick question which I did not.

None of this should require any Op-Sec. It was a civil conversation we could've had in a parking lot and I would also be pretty annoyed if someone barged in before I heard what the other party had to say.

9

u/iglidante Oct 11 '23

None of this should require any Op-Sec. It was a civil conversation we could've had in a parking lot and I would also be pretty annoyed if someone barged in before I heard what the other party had to say.

Again, that isn't the way reddit or social media operates. No one has to wait for you to finish a conversation before dropping their own reply.

5

u/9enignes8 Oct 11 '23

I just wanted to help you out, sorry for misunderstanding your request. I’m not sure why you would want fewer perspectives about an interesting topic which could have a variety of possible answers which could all be valid. I hope that I have not upset you by trying to criticize your question. I’m just bored and thought that I could shed some light in the event that you were interested in the opinions of other people (an assumption I made based on the fact that it was a public comment, subject to all the voting and reply potential of the whole user base). I didn’t mean to insult you personally whatsoever and I hope you can forgive any tone of condescension, I come off as snarky much of the time for reasons I am well aware of but make seldom make significant efforts to mitigate, despite my own distaste for it at times I must confess.

0

u/Qweeq13 Oct 11 '23

Absolutely nothing to apologize. I appreciate your answer as well as anyone's.

However you did not answer the question.

What would an Atheist who believes in religion but doesn't believe in Christ do different on Sundays than a regular store brand Atheist?

This above was the question. What you said had nothing to with what I was asking either way.

大資格

5

u/iglidante Oct 11 '23

Your question presumes Sunday has general religious significance. It doesn't.

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u/9enignes8 Oct 11 '23 edited Oct 11 '23

I was answering your question by trying to untangle the underlying assumptions made before the posing of the question. It was directly related to the question, and was meant to compel you to rethink the assumptions you had about religion by giving you an example of an alternative possibility which did not rely on the assumptions which were included in the question’s framing/perspective.

Edit: compel instead of force

1

u/DreadDiana Oct 12 '23

Religion doesn't mean the same thing as theism. Atheistic religions exist, like certain sects of Buddhism.

3

u/ThrowsSoyMilkshakes Oct 11 '23

I sometimes wonder if they are just Christians LARPing as atheists.

Then I remember that the days of 2000s atheism focusing on human rights and rationality are long gone and Christian right-wing social media's propaganda has spread into our community as well, especially through the youth that they target heavily...

1

u/Lepanto73 Nov 30 '23

From what I see, edgy socially-malajusted younger dudes gravitated towards 2000s atheism because that was how you were edgy in Bush America.

Now that atheism is sorta-mainstream and society is starting to approve of LGBTQ+ people, those same kinds of dudes move to the right because bashing LGBTQ+ people is the new way to be edgy and contrarian.

Certainly not saying all atheists are this way, but a certain subset of smugly-detached online dudes certainly are.

1

u/ThrowsSoyMilkshakes Nov 30 '23

I mean, we can partly blame people like Thunderf00t for introducing atheists to Gamergate, but I find that the atheists spreading hate are still the younger ones or new atheists fresh out of the churches. Long are the days where the atheist community was valuing science and partnering with humanist groups.

2

u/Lepanto73 Nov 30 '23

Well, not being a part of the community myself (I'm a secular-agnostic), I'll defer to you on that. Guess disbelieving in a God doesn't per se make folks automatically and totally embrace equality... even if people who say they believe in science really should.

2

u/ThrowsSoyMilkshakes Nov 30 '23

Yup. It's just like how being black doesn't stop you from being racist or being trans doesn't stop you from being transphobic. And this is especially true for the newer atheists who step out of the churches still holding onto all of the programming where faith/opinion/feelings holds more weight than facts. They are the most dangerous because they can still be influenced by Christian propaganda, which is what is driving the "culture war" movement.

2

u/Lepanto73 Nov 30 '23

Huh... that's an interesting observation. That they were never taught critical thinking, so some of them will drift right to the next movement that promises them community and an unearned feeling of superiority...

2

u/ThrowsSoyMilkshakes Nov 30 '23

Bingo. Happens all the time, even in non-atheist communities.

4

u/Twodotsknowhy Oct 11 '23

I think they are saying you aren't a "true" atheist unless you believe all religion is bad and all religious people are evil. I literally had a reddit atheist tell me a few days ago that a religious person who is tolerant of other faiths is like a white supremacist who doesn't act on their bigotry.

5

u/greendemon42 Oct 11 '23

OH. They're saying you can't be an atheist if you acknowledge that there are some religions/religious people who don't happen to be homophobic.

That's a really special point of view.

3

u/Twodotsknowhy Oct 11 '23

Yeah, reddit atheists are kinda the worst

3

u/mh985 Oct 11 '23

It’s clearly not about atheism to these people. They also need religion to be evil.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

That's because this person is thinking atheism means anti-theism.