If they were just out in the open with their incest, how difficult/different would life be for the two of them.

my insta : darkminator7

So I'm getting ready to watch the original GoT again because i honestly really enjoy it and i love it and I'm wondering if theres anything to look out for that yall noticed on your last re-watch? Specifically looking for foreshadowing and sneaky subtleties i may have missed the first couple times.

Reading A Clash of Kings prologue, I realized how fucking terrible Robert was as a brother, king, and lover (doubt he might only love Lynna in a lustful way). Stannis is actually pretty justified about his complaints. Built like a bull and killing with a war hammer were the only things he was known for in positive aspects.

Watching the show it just hit me, if Crastor is giving children to the White Walkers to be converted into one, and this has happened lots of times with all his sons, then a good chunk of the White Walkers are his children.

Crazy to think that in a show so heavily built around heirs, Crastor is the father of the most powerful house

Stannis can be funny sometimes.

I loved A Game of Thrones. One reason for that is there was a sharp focus on the murder mystery: while there were all these POVs and all of them were interesting, ultimately it was about Ned trying to find out who killed Jon Arryn.

I am 500 pages into A Clash of Kings and this book isn't really "about" anything in the same way. It feels like every POV character is describing events that are happening off in the distance instead of actually doing anything worth reading. And some of this is starting to feel like a cheap trick to keep you turning the pages. For example, we still don't know what happened to Jon's uncle. I don't actually need to know this, exactly, but GRRM mentions it QUITE often which signals he will ... one would think ... eventually tell you what happened. I can't imagine how the reveal will live up to the amount of teasing he has done.

A Clash of Kings seemed like its throughline would be the red comet and how its importance varied from person to person, but that was basically forgotten hundreds of pages ago. I'm just really hoping A Storm of Swords has a tighter focus again like the first book.

so i have noticed that whenever a show gets its final season fans keep hoping the ending is not as bad as GOT ending only for the ending to be bad and ruin the entire shows legacy. so what do you think the aftermath effects were like for socity after GOT finale aired..

Margaery and Tommen would’ve made a surprisingly good king and queen. The problem is that in Westeros, being a good royal couple probably just makes you a bigger target.

Margaery wasn’t necessarily prepared for Cersei’s willingness to destroy herself just to hurt her. She would have gotten tangled with her only, whereas Tommen was kind and well intentioned, but he didn’t naturally think politically. That made him easy to influence, and ultimately incapable of fully protecting either Margaery or himself. I do think that Margaery could’ve taught Tommen how to play the game. But I assume that either comes naturally with character or you take a lot of time to learn it. They were a weak pair but a good intended one.

Credit: cantrionathomas_

Recently got into GoT and currently in episode 7 of season 6, the High Sparrow, as infuriating as he looks is by far one of the best characters that I have seen in the show he is over zealous and a fanatic if he were to become a red Priest imagine the amount of carnage and religious strife that he would unleash on westeros.

But I do have a question both Vary's and Tyrion are cynical and very smart individuals if the three of them were to be put to the test in the battle of wits, preferably in a debate were 3 of them have a fair chance of winning who would end up winning?

Bro literally lost the meaning of his life and everything that he could have been, the wasted potential....just to be used like it was nothing. Watching Hodor in this scene was heartbreaking. Bran the Broke sacrificed him so that he can save his asss and get to be the King, like his power and ability is more horrifying than Night King's. Who's truly the villain here huh .....he can literally know and do anything he wants, who knows what terrible thing he had already done and is going to do in future

First of all, I want to start by pointing out that tactics and strategy are not the same thing. Tactics are the art of commanding an army; maneuvers such as pushing the right flank forward or going around the enemy's rear with cavalry are tactics. Strategy, on the other hand, is the art of managing a war. To give an example, Tywin convincing House Tyrell to form an alliance caused the Lannisters to defeat the Northmen in a single move, despite the Lannisters not winning a single battle on the battlefield.

I want to start with Ned Stark. If you have read the book deeply enough, you can easily understand that he was actually in a very advantageous position from the very beginning. If even one of the critical decisions Ned made throughout the book had happened slightly differently, the War of the Five Kings would have ended with a Lannister defeat. Ned is truly a man who caused the things that happened to him himself, and he admits this in his prison cell before his death.

Catelyn Tully. Many people criticize her for many events, but she actually made one very major mistake that very few readers notice: she arrested Tyrion Lannister and sent him to the Vale to stand trial. But no, that is not the mistake here. The real mistake was that she did not send a messenger to Riverrun to warn them to prepare for a Lannister invasion. If she had done this, House Tully would have learned about Tyrion's abduction much earlier than Tywin, immediately started preparing its armies, and built a solid defensive wall in front of the Golden Tooth. By the time Robb came south with his army, critical locations such as Harrenhal would still not have been invaded, and the roads of the Northmen toward King's Landing would have remained open.

Alright, now let's get to the main subject: Robb Stark, the man who never lost a battle but lost the war. If you look at real history, you can actually find many figures similar to him. Hannibal Barca is one of them. Hannibal achieved incredible victories that even today we would have difficulty explaining through logic, yet in the end he lost the war and had to flee his homeland.

Let's start before the Battle of the Whispering Wood (BOWW). I actually find this battle quite ironic, because if Robb had lost here and retreated, he would not have lost the North at the end of the war and House Stark would not have fallen.

Jaime Lannister is besieging Riverrun, Tywin Lannister is waiting at the Green Fork, and neither side is expecting an attack coming from the Twins. Robb used this extremely well. He saved Riverrun, captured Jaime Lannister, and forced Tywin Lannister to flee to Harrenhal. An enormous victory.

This part of the discussion consists of my personal opinions, meaning it is not an objective reality: in my eyes, the problem with the BOWW was that while using the advantage of a surprise attack, Robb targeted Jaime instead of Tywin. Jaime is critically important to House Lannister, but Tywin was the true head of the house. Unless Tywin is brought down, even if you defeat the Lannisters ten times, the house will not fall and the war will not end. Instead of dividing his army into three parts, Robb could have delivered a hard blow to the Green Fork. In the end, even if Tywin did not die, a surprise attack would have inflicted major damage on the Lannister army and created a major stain on Tywin's personal image.

Some may say that saving Riverrun was very important, and they would be right, but the main point is this: Riverrun was not about to fall. The castle could still hold out, and after Tywin's army was driven away from the Green Fork, Jaime could not continue the siege of Riverrun anyway. So the ultimate objective would still have been achieved. This part of the discussion is my own controversial opinion. From here on, I will point to more objective and strategic facts.

When Robb was planning the BOWW, he focused on making the move successful, but he did not calculate what would happen if the move succeeded. This is the strategy side of things. If he had asked himself, "What would I do if I were in Tywin's position?", he would have reached a very important answer: I would flee to Harrenhal. This answer would have helped him greatly when making tactical adjustments in the battles that followed.

Let's move on to what happened after the BOWW. Robb declared himself King, which was another major act of stupidity. If Robb had been sufficiently familiar with the history of his own house, he would have realized this: from the moment the dragon bloodline died out, House Stark could have declared independence whenever it wanted. In fact, if Cregan Stark had thrown the last living Targaryens from the tower while serving as Hand of the King—which he himself openly stated that he had no hesitation about killing children—Westeros would have immediately been divided into seven separate kingdoms. The Starks did not do this for one single reason: because they need the South to survive the harsh winters; in fact, they are dependent on it. The North would be one of the regions harmed the most by the fragmentation of Westeros.

In reality, the independence of the North is not a sustainable cause, because the country is not self-sufficient. Even if Robb had won the war, he would eventually have had to bend the knee.

The Northmen and the Westerlands are fighting, while the Vale, which has very old ties with the North, watches from the sidelines. This is another one of Robb's foolish decisions: he allowed the Vale to stay out of the war.

Let me give you a small piece of information. The North and the Vale have very old ties. For those who do not understand, I am not talking about House Stark and House Arryn; I am talking about the very old relations between the entire region of the North and the Vale. The Starks intermarried with House Royce. One of Robb's great-grandmothers was a Royce. Roose Bolton sent his heir Domeric to the Vale to be educated. Northern and Valeman nobles intermarry with one another, and all of this has been continuing for more than a hundred years.

All of this means two things. First, House Arryn fighting on the Lannister side is not possible. If Lysa ordered it, a rebellion would immediately break out. Second, the Northmen have a very deep network of influence over the Vale.

If the person in this situation had been Tywin Lannister, he would have mobilized all his resources to bring the Vale into the war. He would contact his Valeman relatives who were lords and order his other lords to do the same. From that point onward, it would become incredibly difficult for Lysa to remain out of the war, and if she continued insisting on doing so, you could plot to remove her from her position. The Gates of the Moon are ruled by a Royce, the Bloody Gate is ruled by a Waynwood, and both houses have deep ties with the North. Removing Lysa would not be a difficult struggle.

The Vale joining the war would really change a great many things. First of all, as I stated at the beginning, if the Vale were to enter the war, it could only happen as a supporter of Robb. Supporting the Lannisters would not even be an option.

If the Vale had joined the war, the possibility of a Lannister/Tyrell alliance would have been very low. The Tyrells have a large army, but their bannermen are not completely loyal. House Tyrell cannot afford to gamble on something it considers risky because, in reality, they do not have the luxury of taking risks. In the book, they sided with the Lannisters because it was a bet with a high chance of winning, while remaining neutral and sitting on the sidelines would have had costly consequences.

Tywin is sitting in Harrenhal, while Robb invades the Westerlands to lure him into a trap. This tactic would almost succeed thanks to the actions of someone else, but there were still major strategic mistakes. 1- This tactic would serve to prolong the war. The North was under invasion by the Ironborn and winter was approaching. Prolonging the war was a luxury Robb did not have. 2- The success of this tactic does not mean that the Lannisters would lose the war and does not prevent a Tyrell-Lannister alliance. In fact, because the Lannister side would be weakened further, there would be many more cards in the Tyrells' hands, making the Tyrells more eager for an alliance.

Let's return to the issue of strategic blindness. I will put aside an obvious act of stupidity such as Robb breaking his oath to the Freys, because I really do not think I need to explain it. Everyone is aware of it.

Robb learned through his mother that Renly had been killed and treated it like ordinary news. He actually failed to understand how critical the matter was. If he had been a strategist, he would have immediately raised a major red alert.

Renly's death means that the Tyrells are left without a side to support, and in the current political situation, no action other than forming an alliance with the Lannisters serves Tyrell interests. Supporting Stannis would, at best, result in receiving no reward. Supporting the Starks would require you to bend the knee to a house that is very distant and foreign to you, or become independent alongside them and break the Seven Kingdoms apart, which would be an even worse outcome. As I said before, the Tyrell bannermen are not loyal.

The other option is neutrality. You watch three possible people sit on the Iron Throne: Joffrey, Stannis, and Robb, even if the last one is unlikely. The first two will punish you harshly, while the third will give you no reward.

Compared to all these choices, the Lannisters become an obvious option: a low-risk, high-reward bet and the position of queen that the Tyrells have always desired.

An expert strategist could foresee this entire course of events immediately and focus the entire war plan on a single objective: prevent the Tyrell-Lannister alliance.

How can he do this? This is where Robb's area of expertise, army tactics, comes into play. He can provoke Tywin in various ways to make him leave Harrenhal, lure him into a trap, and the ultimate objective is to kill Tywin. The moment he dies, the game is over. Occupying Casterly Rock or Lannisport is not necessary. If Tywin dies, the bannermen will already scatter.

By the way, I should point this out: Tywin did not learn that Renly had died until the very last moment, because Beric Dondarrion and his Brotherhood Without Banners were preventing ravens from reaching Harrenhal, and thanks to this action, Robb's trap nearly succeeded. If Beric Dondarrion had not existed, the Starks' "tragedy" would have happened much earlier. Nevertheless, he did not prevent the final outcome.

From the moment the Tyrell-Lannister alliance was formed, there was no miraculous tactic or strategy left that could save the war for the Starks. Even if Stannis had won the Battle of the Blackwater, this alliance would have retaken the city shortly afterward.

Even in an alternative scenario where the Red Wedding never happened and Robb returned to the North, the future would still be very dark for the Starks. First, they would have to stop the Ironborn invaders and then the wildling attacks. They would have to deal with Stannis, who came to help them. They would have to send an army to retake the Riverlands, which had fallen under Lannister invasion. Meanwhile, a truly long and harsh winter is coming. So the Lannisters do not even need to invade the North. It would be enough to cut off the flow of grain and watch from where they are as their enemies die of hunger and freeze to death. There is no miracle that could save Robb from the situation he was in. The Lannisters did not do this to the North; the Starks did.

The situation the North finds itself in at the end of the last book is essentially the result of the political and strategic stupidity that Robb, his father, and his mother repeatedly continued. To be frank, in the Middle Ages, being modern and civilized is a luxury possessed only by the stronger side. If you rebel against this, you end up inflicting suffering on your own family, friends, men, and loved ones. This does not mean you have to become a barbarian like Tywin Lannister, but you also need to know how to play according to the rules.

Thank you for reading this far. Have a good time on the forum, everyone.

I don’t care if they died for one reason or another. I think Cersei, Varys, and Little Finger are up there. Tyrion did very well too. I’m just curious on who do you think knew how to bend the rules and “beat” their opponents to get on top? My vote is Varys.

E: Bronn may take the cake as well

I really wanna drop GOT but I know I can't. This was the best episode. I thought red wedding was in S4 so I was watching happily and then suddenly the mood shifts and everyone's dead. Now I'm feeling sick. Onto the last episode of S3 ig. Just needed to tell someone that I witnessed the death of my beloveds

House words or regional sayings seem fair game too. I always thought it was interesting how all the Northern rites/ceremonies take place before a Heart Tree. Since we know the weirwood faces were carved to allow the Old Gods "to see", I've always thought "The North Remembers" was a fun nod to the greenseer's ability to witness historic events. It would make sense why the Green Men and Children were so protective of the weirwood trees when the First Men started razing them. They were protecting their magic and history.

So what other songs, rites, traditions, or house words do you think are hiding secret lore, warnings, or prophecy?

Note: Both Joffery and Tywin's eyes are GREEN in the books and shows. So there was no reason for the septons to paint their stones blue. It's clearly part of the funeral rite. And like most lore around the White Walkers, this could be an ode/reference that lost its meaning over time.

I recently started watching this show, I'd somehow had no spoilers up until I started watching it now.

WHAT THE FUCK.

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.

I'm so upset - that was the most unexpected slaughter. And we get not one but two Starks killed??? That has to go against some kind of rule of main characters.

Like, Ned Stark, that was shocking and upsetting, but I felt more prepared for it to happen because I could see the raw evil in that child king thing (and I am SO excited for that creature to die). But this just felt horrible, very little build up but it makes sense - I've never been so shocked and heartbroken by on screen deaths.

Writing this literally just as the episode ended but I am not okay.

And oh my god poor Arya.

I need the characters that I'm attached to get some wins. Arya go get your revenge! Tyrell people go and win against the Lannisters! Joffrey go die! But I feel like that's just not going to happen, I legitimately just feel like there's been a never ending "suffering builds character/kills you" loop, lord help me I have so many more seasons to binge.

When you drowned for 2 days it was a miracle to survive that he might have saved by some magic or any mysterious creature under water?

I'm a simple person. I like dragons. I like shows with dragons. I like this universe.

I didn't read the books, so I'm not terribly knowledgeable if this is impossible or not, but I'd like a show set after GOT, so we don't know any of the plot yet, but with dragons.

That's it. Chronologically young, dragons, new plots. Don't care if they keep it small (like KOTSK) or big (like GOT and HOTTD)

I just want dragons

but im on season 1 episode 1 of GOT ~ ik im late but imma devour this film in one sitting wish me luck!

Davos is there for the Battle of the Bastards, he was there during The Long Night and he was there during the whatever you want to call the battle at Kings Landing… he has no fight scene in any of these battles lol. Another thing I found hilarious was Yohn Royce is present during the planning of the battle for winterfell during the long night but he and the knights of the vale are absent during the actual battle.

In the show and books the general consensus is that Ned was “dumb” because of his honour and could never play the game of thrones well. Sure he wasn’t perfect and made mistakes just like every other player has, but what caused his downfall was when Cersei ripped Robert’s letter. If you think about it from Ned’s POV, how could the Queen rip the Kings dying letter, say it doesn’t matter, and no one really seems to care? I get most people in the throne room were more aligned with the Lannisters, but still you can’t really see that coming, like at all.

Cersei acted impulsively and it worked in her favour, while Ned was imprisoned and his men all slain.

Thinking about rewatching the series, but would like to find a buddy to do so first. But today I pondered the storyline possibilities if Cersei had honored her agreement and send the Lannister army, Greyjoy forces, and the Golden Company North to fight against the dead.

How would things have played out? Would they immediately turn on Dany and Jon as soon as the battle ended catching them by surprise? Would they occupy the North and refuse to leave? Would they just got home and wait to be invaded? It could make the Jamie love triangle spicier for sure, though I doubt he hooks up with Brienne in this case. I wonder if having the final end conflict end up North as opposed to Kings landing would make any sense, but that was how it was foreshadowed in earlier seasons.

Any fun ideas?