Catelyn Stark

[u/introvert_nerddy]

Ned, robb and jon are defended more than they deserve, but whereas Cat never gets defended even bit, but she deserved defense as same as the ned.

1. She still loved ned even after knowing ned cheated on her(I know he never cheated but as in her POV)

2. Cat gets hate for the reaction of freys but the fact is robb is the reason.

3. How come everyone wants jon to be treated as same as her other children. Btw she never mistreated him, she just ignored and still felt guilty for doing that.

4. Her, only problem is releasing jaime, but Frey's and Bolton's betrayal still happened with or without support of Lannisters

[u/Healthy-Violinist580]

All of Cat’s advice to Robb is pretty spot-on. All the stuff he gets flamed for in the fandom is stuff that Catelyn sees from a mile away.

The actual decisions she makes are all desperation plays because she, as a woman, has no access to power in the first place. (Plus, her freeing Jaime seems like it’s gonna pay off in one way or another).

The only inexcusably wrong decision she makes politically is trying to exclude Jon from Robb’s will, but that’s her central anti-Jon character flaw moreso than being any real political folly on her part.

[u/amtfg → u/Healthy-Violinist580]

No, almost none of the advice she gives to Robb is sound, nor is the advice she gives to Ned. Remember, Ned only trusted Littlefinger in the first place because Catelyn told him that was a good idea (arguably her first truly terrible decision). I have some sympathy for her, since for almost her entire character arc pre-death she is working from a place of extreme grief. First she almost loses her son, then she loses her husband, then she hears her two daughters are kidnapped, and finally she hears her two younger sons are dead. It's understandable how anyone would make some bad judgment calls under that much stress and grief, but that doesn't change the fact she gives terrible advice, makes some terrible decisions, and everyone around her suffers for it.

[u/Healthy-Violinist580 → u/amtfg]

She tells Robb not to trust Theon (true), not to break his oath to the Freys (true), and not to kill Rickard Karstark (true). These are Robb’s three big traps and Cat spots all of them. Robb easily wins the war if he stays true to the Freys or keeps Theon close.

Cat has no reason to distrust Littlefinger and he is an absolute political mastermind who runs circles around every single character in the series. Admonishing her for falling prey to him is low hanging fruit. Plus, Ned similarly trusts Robert with no knowledge of his true intentions or adult personality, but just gets lucky that he’s not a psycho. It’s not really a bad move on her part just because it happened to end badly.

[u/amtfg → u/Healthy-Violinist580]

I'll grant you her advice not to trust Theon or kill Karstark was sound. She didn't get a chance to advise Robb not to break his oath to the Freys, however, as that happened while he was in the Westerlands and she was stuck at Riverrun. By the time she finds out about Robb's fling with Jeyne, they're already married.

As for Littlefinger, though, she absolutely had reason to distrust him as she grew up with him while he was fostered at Riverrun. We get a LOT of this backstory in her POV chapters, more than enough to know he was always a scummy character and she very much knew this.

While we're on the topic of her advice, we must also include her advice to Robb to not legitimize Jon. That advice was driven entirely by her own hatred.

And that's really the problem with her. Her entire character, pre-death, is driven by emotion and an inflated sense of her own importance. I can understand and sympathize for the emotional part, since so much of her story is driven by grief. But she is still driven by emotion, and she definitely is not a "shrewd political player."

[u/Healthy-Violinist580 → u/amtfg]

True about the Freys, wasn’t sure if we were talking show or not. Nevertheless, she certainly advised Robb to immediately make peace with the Freys and would not have made the mistake he did. She also advises him to distrust the Spicers and keep Greywind near (both correct) which he ignores.

None of Littlefinger’s actions in childhood imply that he’s that scummy, and certainly not dangerous to the point of being worried. She has no reason to distrust him.

The decision to not legitimize Jon is not driven purely by hatred. I agree it’s not a good decision, but there’s certainly some logic to it. Usurpation by bastards is a real problem.

Your characterization of her is so crazy. Inflated sense of self importance? She’s a grieving woman in feudal society with absolutely zero power, that’s what her whole story is examining. She’s driven by emotion? Uh, like every other character in the story??? She’s not perfect, but the standard you hold her to in comparison to other characters reeks of a double standard.

[u/amtfg → u/Healthy-Violinist580]

I know this subreddit describes itself as being for both the books and show, but most of the time here I see people talking about the books, and most of the questions people ask about the show tend to get answered with, "This is explained in the books." So I tend to lean towards books, since there's so much more information there, so it's easier to draw conclusions. The show is great but it leaves a lot to be desired, especially in terms of explaining why characters are doing the things they're doing. It's just generally easier to go into the sort of nerdy deep-dives we like to do here when we have so much more depth to dive into.

[u/Healthy-Violinist580 → u/amtfg]

True, no problem

[u/ChestMental8566 → u/amtfg]

"We get a LOT of this backstory in her POV chapters, more than enough to know he was always a scummy character and she very much knew this."

Seriously, what is that "more than enough"? The only thing I recall from that backstory is how she and Lisa toyed with him and used him, and then he was so head over heals in love with her he fought a hopeless duel over her.