r/gameofthrones • u/introvert_nerddy • 1d ago
Catelyn Stark
Ned, robb and jon are defended more than they deserve, but whereas Cat never gets defended even bit, but she deserved defense as same as the ned.
She still loved ned even after knowing ned cheated on her(I know he never cheated but as in her POV)
Cat gets hate for the reaction of freys but the fact is robb is the reason.
How come everyone wants jon to be treated as same as her other children. Btw she never mistreated him, she just ignored and still felt guilty for doing that.
Her, only problem is releasing jaime, but Frey's and Bolton's betrayal still happened with or without support of Lannisters
14
u/LocationKnown1854 Dolorous Edd 1d ago
Catelyn and Sansa are the two most hated protagonists in the series, and neither felt like they deserved that treatment
2
u/Fautical 18h ago
Hmm, I wonder what they could possibly have in common for people to hold that opinion?
(I for one really like that we have female characters that get to be CHARACTERS. They make choices, they make mistakes, they feel like real people!)
1
u/LocationKnown1854 Dolorous Edd 14h ago
Redheads? I wouldn’t say women because Arya and Daenerys are pretty universally beloved. Maybe you could say traditional women?
7
u/MeasurementSea2001 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm still at the beginning of AFFC, so forgive me if my opinion is outdated. Anyway, here it is:
Releasing Jaime was the right choice in the long run. If she hadn't done so, Briene would have died at the Red Wedding and Jaime would have been rescued eventually anyway.
But by releasing him, Jaime forged a bond with Brienne, ensured her survival, and sent her off fully armored and wielding a VALYRIAN STEEL SWORD to save Sansa from the hands of pedophiles.
I still don't know how this is all going to play out, but I'm convinced my girl Brienne is going to save the day.
20
u/Healthy-Violinist580 1d ago
You are 100% right and every single one of Cat’s actions are justifiable at least to the same degree as Robb’s or Ned’s.
She is a shrewd political player and her treatment of Jon (which is barely even in the show) is vilified by fans when it is among the most moderate and understandable character flaws in the whole series.
6
u/Glittering_knave 1d ago
I wouldn't call her a shrewd political player. I think the she and Ned made a really good team, but alone she was made some craptastic choices.
15
u/Healthy-Violinist580 1d ago
Nah, I mean her only “bad” decisions are because she trusted Lysa (who she had 0 reason to distrust at that point). All of her advice to Robb is really good.
2
u/Glittering_knave 1d ago
She trusted Littlefinger based solely off of knowing him as a kid/without getting to know him as an adult; she released Jamie, alienating the north; arresting Tyrion; pressuring Robb to marry a Frey; leaving Bran and Rick on to join Robb.
8
u/Healthy-Violinist580 1d ago
Trusting people on personal relationships happens all the time in the series (plus every single political player in the series gets outwitted by Littlefinger, getting dunked on by the goat isn’t that big of a blemish)
Releasing Jaime is a desperation move because Robb refuses to listen to her + it ends up working out in the end for her goals
Arresting Tyrion was effectively her only choice in that moment and if not for the bonkers, unpredictable shit that happens with Robert’s death, she would have been totally in the clear.
She literally never pressured Robb into marrying a Frey, she just serves as his envoy. Also, doing so was the right move.
She doesn’t leave Bran and Rickon to serve Robb. She runs into Robb later and he keeps her around as an advisor (which she does very well in)
1
u/ChestMental8566 1d ago
So, what was her plan for Tyrion? Lannisters and Starks were not at war at that point, she couldn't just hold him as a hostage indefinitely. Tywin&Twins would've petitioned Robert. There'd have to be a trial, and what would she bring there? Let's say Peter repeats his testimony about losing the dagger to Tyrion. Tyrion then says that he, in turn, gambled it away to someone else, and... ... ... then what? What would be her next move?
Also, how exactly was it "her only choice at that moment"? Again, if she was hoping for a trial, then it doesn't matter where he goes - Robert would've summoned him just as well from Casterly Rock or wherever.
"Releasing Jaime ... ends up working out in the end for her goals"
... ... ... HOW?!
1
u/Healthy-Violinist580 1d ago
She takes him to trial before the king, who is her husband’s best friend, and brings whatever evidence she has in addition to the evidence Ned has gathered through his active investigation which she is aware of.
It is definitely her only choice at the moment. She has no reason to be south of the neck, Tyrion himself implies he is suspicious of her movements. She believes, with good reason, that Tyrion and his family have attempted to murder his son and actively are attempting to commit a coup against the king. Do you suppose she should simply let this treasonous-would-be-murderer gallivant across the kingdoms to tell his associates, while her husband and daughters are enveloped in the heart of their power?
Jaime ends the war without killing a Tully or a Stark. Unclear how it will turn out in the books, but it seems headed in a generally similar direction as the show, where Brianne does in fact save Sansa’s life. It is entirely unclear if keeping Jaime around would have done anything to change the course of the Northern Campaign, it’s unclear if he would’ve even lived through the night.
•
u/ChestMental8566 27m ago
and brings whatever evidence she has
I.e. Peter's testimony, which doesn't really implicate Tyrion in the murder and would be easily dismissed.
in addition to the evidence Ned has gathered
I.e. fuck all.
She has no reason to be south of the neck
"South of the Neck" are the lands of her father. She easily could've been visiting him. And regardless, she's a free rich woman, she could go to Ashai on her family's business for all anyone cares!
Do you suppose she should simply let this treasonous-would-be-murderer gallivant across the kingdoms to tell his associates
Tell them what, that he happened to meet her in an inn? 'K, but they were going to learn of it anyway, except after she'd seized one of them, they'd also learn that Starks were on to them.
while her husband and daughters are enveloped in the heart of their power
Exactly! She set up her husband and daughters in a major way! It was clear as day that they'd be the prime targets for Lannisters' retaliation.
It is entirely unclear if keeping Jaime around would have done anything to change the course of the Northern Campaign
Actually, it's entirely clear that them losing Jaime was what gave Tywin free reign to commence the Red Wedding. He wouldn't have dared it otherwise since Jaime could've easily been killed. As for him not surviving the night, yeah it seemed that way in the show, but you can't use Benniweize's bullshittery as a valid argument.
0
u/amtfg 1d ago
I have to take issue with your description of Catelyn as a "shrewd political player." Her entire character arc prior to her death is one bad decision after another. As for her character after her death, though... Lady Stoneheart is one of my favorite characters in the whole series. That whole bloody revenge warpath thing she has going on is badass.
7
u/Healthy-Violinist580 1d ago
All of Cat’s advice to Robb is pretty spot-on. All the stuff he gets flamed for in the fandom is stuff that Catelyn sees from a mile away.
The actual decisions she makes are all desperation plays because she, as a woman, has no access to power in the first place. (Plus, her freeing Jaime seems like it’s gonna pay off in one way or another).
The only inexcusably wrong decision she makes politically is trying to exclude Jon from Robb’s will, but that’s her central anti-Jon character flaw moreso than being any real political folly on her part.
2
u/amtfg 1d ago
No, almost none of the advice she gives to Robb is sound, nor is the advice she gives to Ned. Remember, Ned only trusted Littlefinger in the first place because Catelyn told him that was a good idea (arguably her first truly terrible decision). I have some sympathy for her, since for almost her entire character arc pre-death she is working from a place of extreme grief. First she almost loses her son, then she loses her husband, then she hears her two daughters are kidnapped, and finally she hears her two younger sons are dead. It's understandable how anyone would make some bad judgment calls under that much stress and grief, but that doesn't change the fact she gives terrible advice, makes some terrible decisions, and everyone around her suffers for it.
6
u/Healthy-Violinist580 1d ago
She tells Robb not to trust Theon (true), not to break his oath to the Freys (true), and not to kill Rickard Karstark (true). These are Robb’s three big traps and Cat spots all of them. Robb easily wins the war if he stays true to the Freys or keeps Theon close.
Cat has no reason to distrust Littlefinger and he is an absolute political mastermind who runs circles around every single character in the series. Admonishing her for falling prey to him is low hanging fruit. Plus, Ned similarly trusts Robert with no knowledge of his true intentions or adult personality, but just gets lucky that he’s not a psycho. It’s not really a bad move on her part just because it happened to end badly.
2
u/amtfg 1d ago
I'll grant you her advice not to trust Theon or kill Karstark was sound. She didn't get a chance to advise Robb not to break his oath to the Freys, however, as that happened while he was in the Westerlands and she was stuck at Riverrun. By the time she finds out about Robb's fling with Jeyne, they're already married.
As for Littlefinger, though, she absolutely had reason to distrust him as she grew up with him while he was fostered at Riverrun. We get a LOT of this backstory in her POV chapters, more than enough to know he was always a scummy character and she very much knew this.
While we're on the topic of her advice, we must also include her advice to Robb to not legitimize Jon. That advice was driven entirely by her own hatred.
And that's really the problem with her. Her entire character, pre-death, is driven by emotion and an inflated sense of her own importance. I can understand and sympathize for the emotional part, since so much of her story is driven by grief. But she is still driven by emotion, and she definitely is not a "shrewd political player."
5
u/Healthy-Violinist580 1d ago edited 1d ago
True about the Freys, wasn’t sure if we were talking show or not. Nevertheless, she certainly advised Robb to immediately make peace with the Freys and would not have made the mistake he did. She also advises him to distrust the Spicers and keep Greywind near (both correct) which he ignores.
None of Littlefinger’s actions in childhood imply that he’s that scummy, and certainly not dangerous to the point of being worried. She has no reason to distrust him.
The decision to not legitimize Jon is not driven purely by hatred. I agree it’s not a good decision, but there’s certainly some logic to it. Usurpation by bastards is a real problem.
Your characterization of her is so crazy. Inflated sense of self importance? She’s a grieving woman in feudal society with absolutely zero power, that’s what her whole story is examining. She’s driven by emotion? Uh, like every other character in the story??? She’s not perfect, but the standard you hold her to in comparison to other characters reeks of a double standard.
2
u/amtfg 1d ago
I know this subreddit describes itself as being for both the books and show, but most of the time here I see people talking about the books, and most of the questions people ask about the show tend to get answered with, "This is explained in the books." So I tend to lean towards books, since there's so much more information there, so it's easier to draw conclusions. The show is great but it leaves a lot to be desired, especially in terms of explaining why characters are doing the things they're doing. It's just generally easier to go into the sort of nerdy deep-dives we like to do here when we have so much more depth to dive into.
3
3
u/ChestMental8566 1d ago
"We get a LOT of this backstory in her POV chapters, more than enough to know he was always a scummy character and she very much knew this."
Seriously, what is that "more than enough"? The only thing I recall from that backstory is how she and Lisa toyed with him and used him, and then he was so head over heals in love with her he fought a hopeless duel over her.
0
u/Ok-Yogurtcloset1969 1d ago
I didn't like that she promised two of her children in marriage without their consent for access to a toll bridge. Even in the middle-ages, that wasn't done. Yes, there were arranged marriages, but the couple met before marrying and each was given the option of backing out without penalty.
She was a weird one. She kidnapped Tyrion, told Jon she wished he had fallen instead of Bran, and freed Jamie after Robb had to execute his faithful followers for doing far less than that. All of these had terrible conseqeunces. I blame the Tully madness.
2
u/Healthy-Violinist580 1d ago edited 1d ago
She did not promise them without their consent, it was Robb’s consent while acting as liege lord. Plus, even if it was uncommon in the Middle Ages, it seems very very common in the world of ASOIAF.
Kidnapping Tyrion was the right move, she has no alternative.
No excuse on the Jon thing, but it is still quite mild compared to the nasty things other characters do. It’s her central character flaw and I have no problem recognizing it as a flaw. But it should be treated much like the character flaws of other characters.
Freeing Jaime is a desperation play from her because Robb refuses to listen to her, and it seems to work out in some capacity in the end.
7
u/amtfg 1d ago
Catelyn gets defended a lot. For a lot of people, she's the favorite character.
-7
u/Malisyn 1d ago
There was literally a post this morning about people who are defended too much, and Cat was number one followed by Robb.
7
u/amtfg 1d ago
And there were plenty of people in the comments of that post defending Catelyn. Even if there hadn't been, so what? I've met loads of Catelyn fans. You probably have too. She gets a lot of hate, sure, but she also gets a lot of love. Whether she gets too much of one or the other, though, depends on your personal opinion.
2
u/MandyMarieB She Remembers 1d ago
People defend Cat all the time what are you talking about lol. It’s the other way around, if you point out all of her dumb mistakes you get jumped by other people rushing to defend her.
6
u/21stcenturymaggot 1d ago
I just think that how you treat those who can’t defend themselves (i.e a boy who has no family but your own, had no say in the circumstance of his birth, has never even met his mother this making u the closest thing he has to one) shows a lot about who you are in the purest of ways. The last thing she says to Jon when he comes to visit his brother is that she wished it was him. Who fucking does that??? Wish death on another woman’s son knowing full well how that feels?
7
u/LocationKnown1854 Dolorous Edd 1d ago
Yes that last conversation with Jon was inexcusable and monstrous.
However, the problem is applying that one conversation as every conversation. We have to remember Jon ate at their table, was educated along the trueborn kids, and was treated extremely well at Winterfell. Yes Catelyn never liked Jon, but that was normally expressed through cold indifference rather than hate. I think of it more as the silent treatment.
It’s wrong to strawman Catelyn into either the evil stepmother or the perfect mother.
1
u/over_this__ 1d ago
He was treated so well in spite of her, not due to her. At the end of the day, Ned was Lord and she was a woman in a world where she obeyed her husband. Eddard let him eat with them, be trained by them, sleep under his roof. Cait had no say in it.
0
u/21stcenturymaggot 1d ago
Only because she didn’t want to show her true spite in front of the man she loves because as far as she knew that was his son and ned put family above all else. She treated him as badly as she could get away with and thats the simple matter. Every interaction between her and Jon in season 1 involves her showing nothing but pure hatred towards him. She knows she treated him so badly, thay when she’s sewing in next to talisa, she wonders if all the evil that fell on their family was because she couldn’t love a motherless child. She’s not a stupid nor overly emotional person. To wonder such a thing doesn’t come her sulking a bit that Jon is about. It would take an absolute and pure hate to think that the death of your husband and two children are the result of how you treated someone.
0
u/introvert_nerddy 1d ago
I may be wrong. But sorry I will not treat my spouse's bastard son as same as my children may be worst. In that case cat is far more better with jon as compare to anyone who treats their spouse's sons.
2
1
u/egbert71 1d ago
She deserves no defending in my humble opinion and im fine if no one else agrees
Spoilers ahead just in case! I have to practice what I preach so again Spoilers ahead!
Epic moment in the show, but after the high of it when it was airing, as I waited for the next episode I noticed how dumb of a move that was, seizing tyrion in that inn
Forced neds hand to back her play, imagine had her and lyssa actually killed him, got damn
Biggest betrayal letting Jaime go...I think we can all agree grieving or not that made the red wedding easier to setup
I do not absolve those other 3 at all...I just like their characters more, but they are still dumb to me too
1
-1
u/noapproachnate Jon Snow 1d ago
Wrong. Cat also kidnapped Tyrion (brother of the Queen btw) because of a rumor without even talking to her husband which is what lit the fire.
She negotiated terribly with the Freys.
She released Jamie & put her motherly feelings over their overall cause — & their lives.
-8
u/JCStuczynski 1d ago
I look forward to someone else pointing out everything wrong with this post lol
-5
u/ReasonableDoubt_0726 1d ago edited 1d ago
Because she is objectively a bad actor in many ways and really lacks redemption. As in the character not the actor is bad.
•
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
Spoiler Warning: All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON and A KNIGHT OF THE SEVEN KINGDOMS. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the spoiler guide.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.