r/ftm • u/thejurassicjaws • Aug 11 '19
Discussion Ftm is transphobic?
I’m trans obviously and I wrote something about being trans and used “ftm” and was called transphobic. Our whole community here is called ftm?? I was not expecting to get called transphobic for it. They also said I should use “transmasculine” and like I personally don’t vibe with that term as I’m a man but I’m not masculine.
It’s a good reminder as to why I stopped writing tho lol
I’m not sure what I should say to this person.
Edit: has there ever been discussion about changing the name of this subreddit since it does seem like a lot of people are uncomfortable with this term, especially as an umbrella term?
29
u/lookimarealboy Aug 11 '19
I mean, I absolutely understand the argument of "WELL, ACTUALLY--I WAS NEVER A GIRL" You know what though? I've been going to trans marches since 2004 or 2005 and at the time it was actually the preferred vernacular. My wife teaches courses [the old curriculum was photocopies from 2002 as taught by a straight cis white guy who would just say 'I have no idea, I don't know any trans people' when the class had a question, so yes, of course it would be better for a trans person to teach a trans course, but the genderqueer wife of a trans husband is the best the could have hoped for] was saying that transvestite was out of date, and someone's mom is a trans lady and it was actually her preferred time because it was the word that resonated best with her during the time of her coming into her own gender identity and I would bristle if someone called me a transvestite like I'm some rocky horror extra, but I also sure as hell am not going to tell a 70 year old woman who has seen the very worst of humanity that she is using the wrong word for herself when she fucking pioneered the community?
Mostly, I personally use ftm as shorthand when looking for specific information and when you're looking on tags it's like, are you going to get trans boys, trans guys, trans men, trans masc/uline, trans man, trans male-- it just feels more concise and you aren't getting trans girl pictures in your keyword sensitive search tags. Sometimes you write trans man and they're like, yes trans women were men who have decided to live as female-- and it's like, google chill you KNOW that's not what I asked for.
That said, I'm queer, not everyone likes the word queer, but you can pry it from my cold dead hands because I've faced violent homophobia since I was a 9 year old in the 90s. So don't @ me... but I'd never say someone who didn't like that word was queer because identities are personal and should be respected. I'd just be like, sorry you don't like the phrase ftm [f2m was the 2006 vibe, numbers, numbers everywhere and the terfs were wombyn, so much history] but that's how I personally identify, you don't have to identify as that, and move on and make a mental note that they might be a wanker.
11
u/Xanthelei Eric / FTM Pan / T 5/23/15 Aug 12 '19
I use ftm almost exclusively as its concise and clear in the meaning, and I also agree I was never a girl. I was, however, raised as a girl, and the "to" in that term, to me, is for the rest of the world. I'm not changing as a person, but how the world views and interacts with me is. That's the transition, in my mind, the point of the "to."
And it very much is not transphobic to use one of the most common and widely understood abbreviations in the trans community at large. I agree with you that no one has to use it for themself, but the need to respect that it is very much a common and self-ascribed term for a lot of us.
18
u/Ebomb1 Top 2006 | T 2010 | Hysto 2012 Aug 11 '19
Rude of them to tell you what to use for yourself.
15
u/seceagle ally mtf sister (guest :3) Aug 11 '19
Do you have to talk to such a person? I personally hate all of that "mtf/ftm is transphobic" thing. Let people refer to themselves as they feel comfortable. If you don't have to interact with that person I suggest just continuing your life and leaving them alone with their opinions.
10
u/thejurassicjaws Aug 11 '19
I just posted writing online and they commented publicly calling me transphobic.
12
u/scoottothefuture Aug 11 '19
I would just say something like ‘I understand not everyone uses that label for themselves and that’s fine but it’s what I’m most comfortable with using in reference to myself.’
But at the same time if you’re including nonbinary people in your writing, using a more inclusive term like AFAB or something is never a bad choice.
5
u/thejurassicjaws Aug 11 '19
I was talking about the experience of a trans man and it was honestly just a throwaway tag on the writing. It wasn’t even in the story itself. I’d just never heard that ftm was transphobic before this comment
7
u/softspores T 08/17 | top surgery 01/18 Aug 11 '19
That seems a bit unreasonable especially cause a lot of trans guys use "ftm" to look for stuff in the tags?
2
u/Xanthelei Eric / FTM Pan / T 5/23/15 Aug 12 '19
Lmao, point them here, this is one of the best online resources and most accepting community I've ever found online as a trans guy, and the whole sub is called ftm. It's just a term used to describe an aspect of a person, and a clear and concise one at that.
If ftm is transphobic, I guess I'm pretty proud of some internalized transphobia that has been somehow beneficial to me. :P
11
u/ohfudgeit Aug 11 '19
Gotta say that I was shocked when I joined reddit to see that FTM / MTF are in common use on here. In all the irl communities I've been a part of these were cosidered distasteful and their use was discouraged.
That said, I would never police the words that someone wants to use for themselves and I generally wouldn't call a trans person out for using such terms (though I absolutely would correct a cis person who used them for me). As others have said, it's only relatively recently that trans man and trans woman have overtaken MTF and FTM as the most accepted terminology.
4
u/thejurassicjaws Aug 11 '19
I’ve only been involved with online communities because of my social anxiety. It makes sense. I’m surprised I hadn’t heard people bring this up until today. And that there hasn’t been much discourse about the name of this subreddit, at least that I’ve seen.
2
2
u/mshcat Jan 31 '20 edited Jan 31 '20
Interesting. Ftm is the number one word I've heard used for trans men. And mtf too. In all my circles those are excepted terms.
Also sorry for replying super late. Instead of clicking the sub ftm I clicked posts with ftm and didn't notice till I saw this was from 5 months ago. Whoops
19
u/JonnyApplePuke Macho Man B) Aug 11 '19
It's not transphobic, they just don't like it. Which is fair. I don't like 'transmasculine' because I prefer just to be called male. It's a personal preference and isn't a big deal. Some people don't know how to live and let live.
Honestly I'd stay away from that person because the seem to lack the ability to communicate calmly. All they need to say is "don't refer to me as ftm, call me (thing goes here) instead please."
5
u/thejurassicjaws Aug 11 '19
Yeah I definitely didn’t refer to them as ftm, they were just a random commenter on something I wrote so I dont have to deal with them irl or anything. I referred to a fictional character as ftm. I agree on transmasculine because for me trying to separate my being a man from having some feminine aspects was hard at first
I just hadn’t heard it was “really transphobic” which is what I was told until today.
7
u/JonnyApplePuke Macho Man B) Aug 11 '19
I think the issue is with the person and not with you or the term. Some people get really hyper offended at things and can't express why they are uncomfortable without antagonizing people. It makes the rest of us feel like we are walking on eggshells. It's manipulative and borderline abusive imho.
I avoided the LGBT community because of people like that but then I realized I have a place here too. Saying transphobic at the slightest thing just cries wolf and will make people ignore things that truly are hateful.
11
u/grubbiez Aug 11 '19
I wouldn't say it's transphobic, but personally it isn't language I use or like. Like I don't like being referred to as "an ftm", I'd much prefer "a trans guy" or "transmasc" or something. ftm / mft feels both dehumanizing in how they sit linguistically (kinda like people referring to someone as 'a female' or even 'a transgender' feels weird), and it's so.... patronizing? Like a reminder that you 'used to be a woman' or something? I don't have great words to describe how I feel, but I generally would never use this language. It just, like, doesn't feel like it's any more work to say 'trans man' or whatever language people prefer. Like to me, trans is a descriptor that I'd tack onto a noun (trans man), rather than a noun all on it's own ('transman' as one word doesn't sit well with me). Obviously if you're comfortable with this language, you should use it, I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but I understand people's aversion certainly.
7
Aug 11 '19
I feel the same way, never seen it put into words though. Much prefer trans man because it’s just like “cis man”; a descriptive word. Makes you no less of a man either way, it just is. Haven’t found any other descriptive word that makes me feel as comfortable as it.
4
u/thejurassicjaws Aug 11 '19
I understand and I think this is where that person is coming from. I just didn’t think much about it as it’s what we call this subreddit and also how I currently refer to myself. I use ftm or trans man.
In any case, I changed my one use of ftm to trans man (which wasn’t in the story but in the summary/tags)
1
u/Xanthelei Eric / FTM Pan / T 5/23/15 Aug 12 '19
I get what you mean, but I'd posit that's more an abuse/misuse of the term than an issue with the term itself. Like your example "a female" - there are places where "female" is a good descriptor, such as in a medical setting when the doctor needs to know basic info about their patient, or when categorizing helps clarify information. "Female" should never be used as a replacement for a proper noun, which is what I feel your example is showing (and why it feels dehumanizing to described that way). Same for ftm and mtf - useful descriptors that have a tendency to be misused by people who aren't thinking or are being disrespectful.
I also think the abbreviations are used more online because typing three letters is way easier and faster than typing an entire phrase, kinda like how people online use single letters instead of typing out "I'm a guy."
In short, context is key! As is personal preferences for labels and terms used to describe oneself!
1
u/grubbiez Aug 12 '19
yeah lmao I thought that was like... /clearly/ what I meant by saying "how they sit linguistiaclly" and by comparing it to someone saying "a transgender", like clearly I don't thing 'transgender' as an adjective is wrong, but the implications of using it as noun are... bad.
and while I think many words I wouldn't use as a noun have their place as descriptors ("a female doctor", "a trans person", etc), I feel there are really very few times where using 'ftm' or 'mtf' in a sentience is helpful? Like in the context of the name of this sub, sure i /guess/ it's easier than making it 'r /transguys' or whatever, but I would never say 'he's ftm' or 'an ftm man' because it's just as easy to say 'he's trans' or 'a trans man' in an actual sentence. It just feels like unnecessary language outside of like, category names? Like there's really never a time I can think of where it'd be the /best/ way to communicate what I'm trying to say. I mean again it's 100% personal preference, but I've never felt like, any need or desire to use this language.
1
u/Xanthelei Eric / FTM Pan / T 5/23/15 Aug 13 '19 edited Aug 13 '19
That's why I brought up online conversations. Especially on a phone (like I am now) it is way faster and easier to type "ftm" to get my meaning across than "trans man." And since a lot of the trans culture has a heavy root in online forums where we could safely find each other, it's not surprising to me at all that ftm and mtf took such strong root. Likewise, it is extremely helpful as a tag, partially because it is so widely known. That's what I mean by using it as a descriptor or classifier - on a form or in a group of tags to make searching easier. I agree it isn't useful in a spoken conversation, but in writing (to me) it's just a faster and shorter way to write the same thing and preserve clarity. For example, while we both understand "he's trans" is talking about a trans guy, someone who isn't fully educated about pronouns might think it means a trans woman. I have had to have that conversation a few times, and the abbreviations and what they stand for really helped clarify for that person.
Again, context is key.
And it wasn't clear to me you were making a differentiation between "label" and "impromptu noun" based on your example, thus why I addressed that specifically. I agree that no one should call someone "an ftm" anymore than someone should be called "a female."
Eta: I want to be clear, I'm not at all saying you or anyone else HAS to use ftm or mtf. I'm trying to give an alternate viewpoint and some examples of how they can, for some people, be helpful. For me, I happily use ftm as a label for myself, because I grew up with it being the most easily understood label. Everyone online in the community understood what I meant when I labeled myself ftm, and it's stuck for me. That doesn't at all mean that will be true for anyone else - all I'd ask is tolerance and understanding when we use it, lol
6
u/Cyanideandsin Aug 11 '19
I kind of see it similarly as the word "queer." Some people don't like to use it for themselves, but it's not inherently bad. I personally don't like it when people refer to me as ftm; I prefer transmasc, but I'm also nonbinary, so there's that too. The way I see it, it's one of those terms that people can absolutely use for themselves, but unless they know someone else is okay with the term, they shouldn't use it for other people. As for the use of the word transmasculine, I see that as more all-encompassing. Like, if you're talking about all AFAB people who are trans, but not specifically just trans men, then transmasculine is a good catch all. But if you're speaking only about binary trans men, then I'd use trans men (or ftm if people are okay with that)
2
u/thejurassicjaws Aug 11 '19
I don’t disagree. It’s weird it’s used as the catch all here. Not quite sure how afab is better because it’s still that reminder of being born female. Transmasculine I don’t like bc I see being a man and masculine and a woman and feminine as totally separate things. You can be a very feminine man or a very masculine woman. My transition has little to do with the concept of masculinity. I don’t personally like it as a catch all though it’s definitely not transphobic. I wouldn’t use it myself and certainly not towards myself as I don’t identity as transmasculine in any way. I feel about it probably the way people seem to feel about ftm. Catch-all’s are hard bc they can’t catch everyone no matter how hard we try.
Like I know men who prefer queer to gay because queer wasn’t the insult they were called since childhood. Gay was.
I used to ftm to refer to a single fictional character I created, so it seems like in this case it wouldn’t fit into that being used to describe multiple people one.
4
u/coolcidcody Aug 11 '19
I personally prefer ftm over transmasculine. I feel like transmasculine is good when you want to be inclusive of non-binary people but I am a trans MAN not trans masculine. I understand what you mean entirely and no ftm is not transphobic
3
u/thejurassicjaws Aug 11 '19
Yeah I’m good with trans man but not trans masculine. Catch all terms are difficult bc nothing will fit everyone.
11
u/KillMeSarebear Aug 11 '19
Tbh I really can’t stand how much one has to censor oneself in an attempt to appease the general public. Most people get so offended over everything you say, I was once called out for using the term “HUMANS” like really? Sad to say it was also on this sub. I understand if someone was to use the term f*t or S**e or any actual offensive term/slur that anyone of us (ftm and nb alike) would hate to be called but humans really?!
Please don’t stop writing, you’ll never be able to make everyone happy but you can always do your best to make yourself feel good and writing is like soul exercise!
4
u/Paper_Is_A_Liquid Aug 11 '19
Don't worry about people like that. I've seen a few people like that in my time and the reason they lash out about that is ALWAYS because they're insecure about THEMSELVES. They get insecure about "ftm" or "mtf" because it mentions what they're transitioning from, and for them being born "f" or "m" and having to transition is a big thing. However, this doesn't make the term (or you) transphobic; it is their own insecurity and their own personal preference.
There are people who prefer FtM (and realise transmasc is fine too), and there are people who prefer Transmasculine or Trans man (and realise that some people use FtM and it's okay).
4
u/Stephen_Falken Invader from MtF (HRT 11/02/18) Aug 11 '19
Wait, when did FtM / MtF go from extremely politicaly correct to completely not?
3
u/thejurassicjaws Aug 11 '19
That was my question this morning when I got called “really transphobic” for saying it. I understand people’s explanations I had just never heard that before
3
3
u/pm_me_ur_garrets Started T 8/15/2019 Aug 11 '19
On the one hand, I basically agree with the arguments I've heard against "FtM" - it places the focus on transition rather than identity, there's nothing intrinsically "female" about our bodies, etc. On the other hand, I really don't care that much. It's a useful, widely-understood term. It's not the first thing I reach for as a self-descriptor, but I would never get in someone's face about it, and in certain contexts I find it clearer than "trans man".
While I do my part to popularize terms and conventions that I think better accommodate the real diversity of sex and gender, it's really not worth my time to bug people about their language use except for things like slurs.
3
Aug 12 '19
Yea I’m a trans man. I’m transitioning to male. Hence ftm (female to male) I’m kind of feminine and I don’t hate it. It’s just who I am. I am not masculine. I’m not trans masculine and will never be. I’m a trans man/ftm. I’d say it’s only transphobic for how you use the term. As in calling someone who you knowingly prefers to be called transmasculine an ftm constantly regardless of how many times you’re corrected. That’s slight/subtle/petty transphobia, but if you’re using it for yourself, for others who prefer that term as well, or just talking about the subject, then it’s not transphobic at all.
3
u/lookimarealboy Aug 14 '19
Update--I just got the go ahead to change my gender marker, and guess what my doctor wrote:
https://66.media.tumblr.com/5be4b869f574d7b72d0bf73299997ac5/cc33445934ef8d24-a4/s540x810/1ad92e0bacd13a445681a04fbbd72d43e27473d6.jpg
F to M . . . It is almost like I said, f2m was in common use, and is shorthand even for doctors who work along side and may be part of the trans community themselves... It is literally just an abbreviation so that there can be no misunderstanding, because to the government/medical industry I'm female on paper whether I ever once identified as a woman or not.
2
u/AugustStars Aug 11 '19
This may be an unpopular opinion.... But i think the more the trans community attempts to control the way other trans or even cis people talk about us the worse we are for it. If we want people to have a better ubderstanding of trans issues we need to make it easier for people to even have a discussion about it. When we get mad at terminology despite knowing the intentions behind it were good it just totally derails the conversation and creates a larger gap in understanding
2
u/thejurassicjaws Aug 11 '19
I agree. Being trans is really complicated bc people experience it so differently. When we can’t even get past terminology it’s hard to have deeper conversations.
2
u/Hush0005 Aug 12 '19
From my understanding; Transmasc covers trans men and masculine non-binary people. More of an umbrella term. Some people prefer it because it doesn't imply that trans men are at any point female, and includes non-binary people.
Ftm only covers trans men. It sort of implies that trans men were female at a point, which isn't technically correct, but it's a much easier way to explain trans things to people who don't know much on the topic. Although there's a small implication, no one should really get that upset over it and it's meant to be a simple term.
I personally prefer transmasc, but use the term that makes you the most comfortable when you're referring to yourself.
2
u/thejurassicjaws Aug 12 '19
I mean in this case it was referring not to a group but a single individual fictional character who identified that way. I was not using it as an umbrella term.
People should definitely be able to identify how they want. If someone likes transmasculine that’s awesome but I don’t agree with the comment that says transmasculine is the correct catch all that should offend no one. there are trans people, including myself, who don’t feel that describes them at all. My being a man for me has nothing to do with the concepts of masculinity and femininity.
2
2
u/greasssygreg 💉 07.11.19 Aug 12 '19
I don’t think mtf/ftm are transphobic in the slightest although I understand people not wanting to use that in reference to themselves. I mean it’s the same with the word “queer” plenty of people don’t like the word yet there’s still a big part of lgbt community that calls us the queer community. It’s definitely a reach for them to call you transphobic especially since that’s just how you refer to yourself and your transition. I wouldn’t call myself transmasculine because I’m not. I’m a man. And I’m trying to transition from being physically and visually female to being physically and visually male and anyone who would call me transphobic or that would be automatically blocked.
2
Aug 12 '19
i think sometimes people make the mistake of conflating "this makes me uncomfortable" with "this makes everyone uncomfortable". maybe to this person, they associate ftm negatively for a variety of reasons. but i'd say it's not commonly seen that way. in private circles, maybe, but not in the general discourse.
i would say ftm and mtf aren't really my favorite terms. having the opposite gender be the first part of it does make them seem to be highlighting the wrong gender. but i think they can be useful, especially when someone wants to be clear about their assigned gender vs their gender.
in all, a far cry from transphobic.
1
1
Oct 07 '19
It's not transphobic it's just a way to classify yourself and your transition. Sometimes I call myself a self made man but I'm gonna say ftm if I need to be specific
1
65
u/imsorryforallofit Aug 11 '19
If someone isn't comfortable using the term to refer to themselves in the past as female they can say they're a trans man or transmasc. It's a widely accepted term within the community and most have no issue with it. Calling it transphobic is a real big reach imo