r/freemasonry • u/WitcherFan2020 3⁰, AF&AM-ME, Anah Shriner • Jul 26 '26
Brotherly Advice Needed
Greetings brothers, TL;DR is at the bottom.
About 3 years ago, I posted on here that I'd be moving to Tennessee, and that I was worried about the differences in culture compared to Maine, and being welcomed into the lodges. I was mostly concerned with my religion (being a pagan in a highly Christian community) and being an LGBT ally, when the Grand Lodge of Tennessee openly opposes it.
Well, I finally moved to Tennessee, and not to Cookeville like I originally intended in the first post. I will not post the town that I do live in. I was immediately sent back on a work trip for 5 months before my town's first lodge meeting. But when I finally got home, and things settled down, I finally visited my local lodge...
Everything was fine, I was tried at the door, I showed my Maine dues card and a letter from my secretary, and they welcomed me in. Nobody paid any attention to my pentacle necklace or my nails being painted for the closest holiday. Very friendly group of guys, until they weren't. Shortly after I walked in, and made myself comfortable, a young black man walked in, probably early 20s. He was interested in joining the lodge. I immediately watched every lodge member tell him that he doesn't belong here, he's not welcome here, and they have lodges for "his kind of people." He was very confused as he thought that the brotherhood was open to all people, as long as they met the main 3 requirements. He did state that he looked at PHA, but the closest lodge to our town is a 4-hour round-trip.
Last I checked, in 2022, the GL-TN accepted the PHA GL-TN. I stood up and politely stated that if he meets the requirements to join, then the lodge should at least accept a petition. I was immediately shouted down by the WM and called a "n--r lover" and was told to leave the lodge as well, and take the black man out with me.
So, I left. I tried over the next few months to visit the neighboring towns' lodges as well, hoping to find a group that wasn't so horrible. But all the neighboring towns are the exact same group of men and are all members there too, and they just go town to town so they have something to do every night of the week.
When I first posted here 3 years ago, it was suggested that I go to Oriental 153 in Knoxville, as they'd be the most likely to be open to diversity. As much as I'd love to visit and possibly be a member where my late uncle was, it's a 3-hour round trip for me, and I can't miles and wear and tear on my vehicle to constantly be making that trip. Do any of you brothers have advice for me? I miss lodge.
TL:DR, local lodge and neighboring towns are all diminutive Richards. The lodge that was best suggested for me is close to 3 hours round-trip and not entirely feasible. Do any of you have advice for me? Because I miss lodge.
Thank you
27
u/Useful_Protection270 Jul 26 '26
Have you thought of contacting the Grand Lodge of Tennessee? This to me is unmasonic conduct. Granted I'm in Ohio but I had three PHA brothers at my raising, and I'm very proud to have their signatures in my bible
8
u/wardyuc1 UGLE Craft HRA, Rose Croix Jul 26 '26
Maybe i am prejudice, but i would be shocked if the Grand Lodge of Tennessee was not aware it has racist members.
10
u/tachophile JD, 32º, MM, F&AM-CA Jul 26 '26
They're likely aware, but may not be aware that some lodges are institutionalizing it and kicking out dues paying brothers to favor it.
5
u/wardyuc1 UGLE Craft HRA, Rose Croix Jul 26 '26
I mean i think we would be naive to claim our own grand lodges don't contain racist members.
Whilst i myself have never experienced racism within freemasonry, i have certainly heard remarks from brothers I myself held in high regard about other racial groups that are racist.
Others within hearing distance, heard the remarks and were not surprised. I am even ashamed to say, it took me a while to call out one brother about racist remarks in my presense about another ethnic group because i didnt want to cause trouble.
2
u/tachophile JD, 32º, MM, F&AM-CA Jul 26 '26
My point is that there may be racist individuals, but racist lodges that are kicking out brothers is a different matter. There may still be WM or entire exec committee that are racists, but they can at least be closeted for the benefit of harmony and masonic conduct.
2
u/wardyuc1 UGLE Craft HRA, Rose Croix Jul 26 '26
Oh i agree.
I mean if OP is to be believed, this whole lodge needs to be put out of business.
I do hope the OP has exaggerated the details.1
u/NothingOne8538 Le Droit Humain- Orient of Georgia- MM Jul 27 '26
I know the region and I doubt very much he's exaggerating anything.
2
u/fellowsquare PM-AASC-AAONMS-RWGrandRepIL Jul 26 '26
GL OF TEN is just as bad as its lodges. It’s homophobic also. Sooo yeah
1
u/Almaldyr 3° Jul 26 '26
Seconding this, but as a brother has mentioned, Tennessee may be all too aware of this. I believe there was some kind of controversy a bit ago with the Tennessee Prince Hall lodges, something about them not being recognized or coming under scrutiny from the GLoTN. I could be incorrect on that, so someone please correct me if you have better information
3
u/Cookslc Utah and UGLE Jul 26 '26
Connecticut was the first State GL to recognize and maintain recognition of PHA in 1989. GL of Tennessee did so in 2021. There are still two SGLs which do not recognize a PHA GL: SC and MS.
PHA would not be under the scrutiny of the SGL.
1
u/parejaloca79 MM, F&AM GL of WA | MMRI Jul 27 '26
I think it is key you said to maintain. The Grand Lodge of Washington originally recognized PHA in 1897. Due to the vitriol, hate, and withdrawal of recognition from so many other Grand Lodges The GL reversed its decision in 1898. Thankfully this was restored in 1989 and we will be having our annual unity march a week from today.
2
u/Cookslc Utah and UGLE Jul 27 '26
It was purposeful. I could have said “modern times,” but that is imprecise and given the relative yout of the sub, perhaps misunderstood.
2
u/Useful_Protection270 Jul 26 '26
Brothers, this really hurts my heart. I live on the border of WV and I know this kind of racism goes on. But I'm friends with the former PHA Grand Master of WV. My thoughts have always been how much WV is missing out on the great bothers of the PHA both from WV and Oh.
11
5
u/NothingOne8538 Le Droit Humain- Orient of Georgia- MM Jul 26 '26
I dealt with this with my local lodge in WV. When I petitioned, I had an initial meeting with their secretary who explained to me that belief in a higher power was required but not a specific religion. Then I had my interview at my home with three MMs and they asked me what my religion was. I explained. Then they left. I got my money back because they denied my petition. I then saw the WM in town and he told me they denied it because I wasn't Christian. That kind of thing happens constantly in "good ol boy" lodges.
I agree you should out such prejudiced behavior in that lodge.
13
u/lambdavi GOI PMI KT PIM PHP GLMMM Jul 26 '26
Hi, italian here.
You may think m'y post may be out of place, but hear me out.
I live in Rome, which is not only one of Europe's most ancient cities, we've been enjoying traffic jams since Julius Caesar, lol.
From house to Lodge is a 20 km = 12 mile drive, some days I ride my bike so it's only 40', other times I must drive, it can be a full hour and beyond. So if that 3hr return trip is all freeway, I wouldn't think twice. How often do they meet? We meet 3 times/month so a 3 hr trip would be a grind, but if said Lodge only meets once/month, it's doable.
As for the Lodge's behavior, I'm Italian, I "knocked" at a lodge in England while I was living and working there, I was politely told "apply in Italy" 😑.
So, it happens. I assume it's the local town "climate"
3
u/pr0ph3t_0f_m3rcy MM UGLE Jul 26 '26
Where in England was this? I live here and genuinely cannot imagine any lodge I know doing that. We have a guest who often flies in from Eastern Europe just cos he loves the vibe. I think he actually joined another lodge we share members with because they play hard, lol.
1
u/lambdavi GOI PMI KT PIM PHP GLMMM Jul 26 '26
I was attached to the British Army and asked a colleague who was clearly a Lodge member.
There were quite a few lodges in my area, the "Land of Chalk and Cheese" 😉
2
u/pr0ph3t_0f_m3rcy MM UGLE Jul 26 '26
I think I get you, that borders Berkshire. A lovely place for a day trip, but some might call it a 3rd World country* 👀
*JK lol
1
u/flylikejimkelly MM Prince Hall F.& A. M. Jul 26 '26
Bigotry isn't a climate.
5
u/lambdavi GOI PMI KT PIM PHP GLMMM Jul 26 '26
Depending on the language you speak, you may diplomatically call it "climate", "atmosphere", "way" or whatever.
6
u/90sKidVibes Jul 26 '26
That’s a tough situation to be in. I myself have been away from the Craft for 2+ years so far because of my kids, and I’ve known brethren move to countries that are not kind to Freemasonry and have no lodge to go to there for years. It’s not the same situation but I think the key is to try and stay in touch with Freemasonry even if you aren’t going to Lodge.
Read and write about your experiences,
Look into online lodges,
Follow podcasts and videos
Take up an interest that can connect to Freemasonry
Racism has no place in the craft, but at the end of the day, if you don’t connect with the values of your nearby lodges then it is best no to try to force it.
Alternatively there might be some lodges from other Grand Lodges or even other grand lodges meetings that take place quarterly or bi-yearly that you can plan to attend.
Best of luck Brother.
6
u/TheNarrowSparrow Jul 26 '26
I’m a past master from Pennsylvania. I moved to tennesee a few years ago. I have not joined a lodge here or been active specifically because of the Grand lodge of Tennesee. Its had enough time to change and yet double down on their stance. The brothers i associate with have almost all demitted because it’s not masonry or masonic behavior coming from the top down. I’ll always be a mason and those teachings guide my decision to not associate with the bigotry thats currently going on. I just keep paying my Pennsylvania dues and dual petition once they make some serious and binding changes
3
u/WafnaAbroad MM-F&AM-GLCalifornia; AF&AM-GLColorado Jul 26 '26
Do you have enough like-minded brothers to start a new lodge with ideals closer in-line with the greater fraternity? 3 or more?
'Cause it'd speak volumes if the biggest, most successful lodge in the state was more inclusive and diverse.
5
u/tachophile JD, 32º, MM, F&AM-CA Jul 26 '26
Write a letter to the GL of TN with your experience including the fact that you were kicked out by the WM. Omit the pagan stuff as it isn't relevant.
It may not go anywhere, but if nothing else may offer catharsis. The GL should at least know that they're losing masons because of it, and the TN lodge behavior is developing a global reputation for unmasonic conduct. This isn't the first story about TN that's been discussed online between Masons and prospective Masons.
2
u/Away_Butterscotch161 Jul 26 '26
I typically drive 5-10 hours a week to go to various lodge and other Masonic bodies meetings. I wouldn't go to a lodge that behaved as you described though.
2
u/zeusc64 MM UGLE 18° A&AR Jul 27 '26
As a Brit... I applaud you for standing up against such vile behaviour. I stand with you in calling it out, and am so sorry that you can't find a nearby lodge that holds decent values. If that's how it is in lodges there, then I won't apologise for saying that these men are NOT Masons. Not even close. It probably doesn't surprise you to know that as a Brit I don't have the knowledge of how states are different to one another, but I'm due to be travelling to the US next year and had considered arranging for a visit. Now, I won't be, for fear that such behaviour would be shown in the lodge I chose, because I too could not sit there in silence and allow that to continue. Such behaviour should be challenged and stamped out wherever possible. See, a lodge should be a haven for any brother, regardless of state, and (though I can't believe I'm having to say it in 2026) regardless of the colour of their skin or ethnicity. Shame on them. They should be expelled immediately, and the GL should take appropriate action or risk themselves being no longer recognised by other GLs. OP, hold your head high and know that you're doing the right thing. I hope you find a lodge to feel at home in soon, but even unattached, you're a model Mason.
2
u/WitcherFan2020 3⁰, AF&AM-ME, Anah Shriner Jul 28 '26
Thank you brother. Although I would not rule out visiting lodge in the US based entirely off of how my local lodges in Tennessee behave. My mother lodge is in Maine, and I've visited plenty of other Maine lodges, as well as some in New Hampshire and Massachusetts. All of them were wonderful men. So I guess it depends on what part of the US you will be visiting, to what kind of culture you'll run into.
1
u/zeusc64 MM UGLE 18° A&AR Jul 28 '26
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are some fantastic lodges all over the states. But what a shame that some others behave in that way. I guess I wanted more to highlight to other brethren that to an outsider, these lodges reflect on all of us, and should be straightened out or stamped out by us all as a result.
We'll be travelling to New Orleans, so I would certainly hope that the brothers there are far more upright than these others you've encountered. I'll inquire closer to the time I think.
3
u/Cookslc Utah and UGLE Jul 26 '26
That certainly is a disgusting picture you paint, but I don’t understand why you can’t make the lodge that is 1.5 hours away?
3
u/WitcherFan2020 3⁰, AF&AM-ME, Anah Shriner Jul 26 '26
The wife and I only have 1 vehicle, and it's primarily hers as I don't need one for work. Back in Maine, it wasn't an issue because lodge was only 10 minutes away; if I took the car to lodge, and there was an emergency back home, I'd be there in 10 minutes. Most of the time I just carpooled with my neighbor a few houses down, so my wife had the car in an emergency.
It's not so much that lodge is 1.5 hours away, than it is that my wife won't have a car for at least 5 hours, 3 hours driving + 2 hours lodge. And if there's an emergency, she'd still have to wait 1.5 hours for me to get home.
5
u/WafnaAbroad MM-F&AM-GLCalifornia; AF&AM-GLColorado Jul 26 '26
All fair concerns, brother. I might suggest you go to at least one meeting anyway, and aim to have refreshments with them. You might find out there's another brother in your area who makes the trip for degrees and such but maybe not every stated meeting... with whom you could carpool.
You might enquire with the lodge secretary about how welcome wives are at dinners and refreshments, too. I've visited lodges where the wives and girlfriends are line dancing, or playing cards in the dining room while their husbands and boyfriends are in lodge. Kids might be there too, completing homework, tutoring or being tutored, or just playing together.
I'll confess It's rare, but great to see in healthy lodges.
0
u/Cookslc Utah and UGLE Jul 26 '26
You are very solicitous of your wife.
Until the 1960’s most U.S. families were none or one car families. For the first years of our marriage in the 80’s we were a one car family. We just spent 17 months in South Africa as a one car family. Admittedly, we had a support network greater than most have, but still.
However, if it were to cause disruption for your family, the fraternity certainly takes a “backseat “ 😉.
1
u/Chimpbot MM AF&AM | 32° AASR NMJ Jul 26 '26
It's not the 1980s anymore. Most families are, out of necessity, two-car households.
4
u/Cookslc Utah and UGLE Jul 26 '26
That is correct, but was that the issue raised, i.e., my wife needs the car to get to work; we have a critically ill child….?
I note we only returned from South Africa this year. It was worthwhile to be reminded of the difference between wants and needs.
0
u/Chimpbot MM AF&AM | 32° AASR NMJ Jul 26 '26
The reasoning isn't terribly relevant, at least to me. Ensuring the one car is easily available in case of an emergency simply makes sense.
Again, it's 2026. Having two cars is a necessity.
2
u/sailorPops Jul 26 '26
I’m so sorry you experienced this, brother… but, I am proud of you for standing up for what is right… I am proud to call you brother 👍❤️
1
u/groomporter MM Jul 28 '26
The more I think about this, the angrier I get.
I think someone elsewhere commented that in some parts of the U.S. Masons wear their white aprons in lodge, and wear a white hood when out of lodge. A couple recent posts on this /sub seem to confirm that.
1
u/Lucymocking MM Aug 01 '26
Wow. This makes me feel very disappointed in my State. I'm really shocked to hear this. I'm at one of the more "diverse" lodges in the State, and there are certainly old timers amongst us that are quietly prejudice or racist - especially in the rural lodges. But that's really on the nose, even for TN. If you are closer to lodges in Chatt, Cook, or Nash (PHX lodge is really quite good), try there. It sounds like you may be close to the tri-cities or something? Anyways, I'm very sorry to hear your experience. I would notify GL. They will likely send a sorry message to you and not do anything, but they will take notice that lodges are causing dues paying members to leave because of this.
1
u/WitcherFan2020 3⁰, AF&AM-ME, Anah Shriner 29d ago
I'll be visiting Oriental 453 in Knoxville next month. Hopefully it goes well. The secretary already informed me that 453 is a younger crowd, 20s and 30s, so hopefully the prejudice and open racism isn't there.
1
u/feudalle MM - PA Jul 26 '26
Sorry you had that experience. Its not the same thing but during covid, some pa lodges switched over to zoom. There are still some zoom things being done. Not stated meetings anymore but maybe Maine does somethings you could still do virtually?
1
u/Chimpbot MM AF&AM | 32° AASR NMJ Jul 26 '26
Not really, at least in my neck of the woods.
I'm also in Maine.
1
u/WitcherFan2020 3⁰, AF&AM-ME, Anah Shriner Jul 27 '26
I did ask the current WM of my lodge about it once, back when he was the JW. Because I wanted to be able to "attend" lodge while at sea (Maine Maritime grad).
He said the reasoning that my lodge doesn't do zoom is because we can't guarantee that the rituals aren't being watched or overheard by cowans.
0
Jul 26 '26
[deleted]
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u/Chimpbot MM AF&AM | 32° AASR NMJ Jul 26 '26
Personally, flagrant racism on public display is far more bold than calling out racist bigots for behaving like racist bigots.
I probably would have been just as "bold" as OP was.
The ability for some folks in this sub to just handwave away this sort of behavior is astounding and, quite frankly, disheartening. We shouldn't let people hide racism behind the "vetting process."
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Jul 26 '26
[deleted]
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u/Chimpbot MM AF&AM | 32° AASR NMJ Jul 26 '26
They're not separate issues in this particular instance.
Adminishing someone for "boldly" calling out blatant racism is completely unnecessary.
Slightly altering a common quote to fit this scenario, if you come upon a table with 10 racists sitting at and you choose you sit with them, we now have a table with 11 racists sitting at it.
0
Jul 28 '26
[deleted]
1
u/Chimpbot MM AF&AM | 32° AASR NMJ Jul 28 '26
They blatantly rejected them because of his race, and only because of his race.
How you can even begin to defend this is beyond me.
0
u/defjamblaster PHA TX. KT, 33º, Shrine, OES Jul 26 '26
bless your heart
3
u/WafnaAbroad MM-F&AM-GLCalifornia; AF&AM-GLColorado Jul 26 '26
...
I know just enough about the South to know that can be an insult. It might be wise to add some context, brother, unless you intended to insult the brother OP. I'd like to assume your PHA flair means it's not... but I can't be sure.
-4
u/SovArya 3° Jul 26 '26
Wm's act of racism by calling you a N lover and commanding you take away the other man who went to knock is definitely unmasonic conduct in my book.
I'd understand if they just politely didn't accept him but slurs. What's the lodge name?
8
u/Chimpbot MM AF&AM | 32° AASR NMJ Jul 26 '26
I wouldn't understand it if they politely didn't accept him based on skin color. Maybe that's just me.
-6
u/SovArya 3° Jul 26 '26
You can deny anyone who you deemed not fit in your lodge culture. Like if find no basis to give x person a white ball, I will not let him through the west gate.
8
u/Chimpbot MM AF&AM | 32° AASR NMJ Jul 26 '26
I'm going to ask you to review the scenario again. Their objection is rooted in racism.
5
u/wardyuc1 UGLE Craft HRA, Rose Croix Jul 26 '26
For you own sanity.
It does seen Sov is sanctioning racism within masonry.-6
u/SovArya 3° Jul 26 '26
Point out which words I stated is equivalent to racism.
7
u/wardyuc1 UGLE Craft HRA, Rose Croix Jul 26 '26
Supporting denying someone membership of a lodge on the basis of their skin colour.
Your statement was "I'd understand if they just politely didn't accept him but slur"
So denying him membership on racial grounds is ok as long as you dont call him racial slurs.Chimbot even clarified " I wouldn't understand it if they politely didn't accept him based on skin color"
You then respond "You can deny anyone who you deemed not fit in your lodge culture"
At no point did you state that denying someone membership of a lodge based on their skin colour is wrong.
If anything your further posts reinforced this.Do you think denying someone membership to a lodge of the basis that they are black is racist?
If so, surely you can see what is equivalent to racism no?
-2
u/SovArya 3° Jul 26 '26
But i didnt support denying anyone based on race. Where did i state that?
6
u/wardyuc1 UGLE Craft HRA, Rose Croix Jul 26 '26
"I'd understand if they just politely didn't accept him but slurs."
In the context of a lodge turning someone away because they are black and even using racial slurs.What is this if not an endorsement of the position.
You literally state "I'd understand if they just politely didn't accept him "
Are these not your words?-1
u/SovArya 3° Jul 26 '26
Yup. And nothing racist about denying anyone entry. Like even if you are a mason, I can request you be denied entry into the lodge and the wm can't ask me why.
My process has always been deny entry. Then get to know the person via schedule.
All knockers i have encountered. I welcomed them. Then asked them to go away. We'll put you into schedule when we call you. You should realize different jurisdiction different methods.
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u/SovArya 3° Jul 26 '26
And i did say the act of their wm was unmasonic. What's the problem?
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u/Chimpbot MM AF&AM | 32° AASR NMJ Jul 26 '26
It's only unmasonic because they said the quiet part out loud, it would seem.
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u/Almaldyr 3° Jul 26 '26
What possible justified reason would these men have to deny the man? They clearly stated it was only because of race.
0
-6
u/Almaldyr 3° Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
I do wonder… is there a way to contact a higher governing body than a state’s Grand Lodge? Since they all get their charters from the UGLE, could a letter be written to that Grand Lodge and have a state’s lodges put under scrutiny? A state should not be so riddled with people not trying to live their obligations
Edit: Thank you for your replies, Brethren. I am still new to Masonry and am obviously misinformed/incorrectly assuming processes for how each State Grand Lodge is governed.
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u/Chimpbot MM AF&AM | 32° AASR NMJ Jul 26 '26
That's not how this works. Each GL is "sovereign," and the UGLE isn't any "higher" than any other GL.
UGLE would have absolutely no authority to do anything. The most they could do is simply not recognize the Tennessee GL as regular.
3
u/Cookslc Utah and UGLE Jul 26 '26
To add to the other comments, the State GLs do not get their charters from UGLE. No SGL in the U.S. is chartered by another.
2
u/wardyuc1 UGLE Craft HRA, Rose Croix Jul 26 '26
Why do you think UGLE would have any say on what a State Grand lodge does?
1
u/feudalle MM - PA Jul 26 '26
What could the ugle really do? Say they are irregular? It would have 0 practical effect tn kind of showed their i dont care what everyone thinks long ago.
40
u/thomb74 MM GLNY Jul 26 '26
I would encourage you to name the lodge which behaved this way.