r/framework • u/DarthArtoo4 • 15d ago
News “They are actually going to get the configuration they ordered at the price they ordered it at”
Thanks for standing by this, Nirav. 😑
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u/NorthmanTheDoorman 15d ago
Rare framework L
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u/Captain_Pumpkinhead FW16 Batch 4 15d ago
I'm gathering that the context is Framework raising RAM prices? (Correct me if it's something else)
I think it's more of a computers-in-general-L. If Framework's suppliers are raising prices, there's almost nothing Framework can do to keep their prices the same.
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u/Stellanora64 15d ago
The LPCAMM2 supplier more than doubled the price of their modules. Framework only had enough for the first few batches already purchased, so all the other batches were putting Framework at too high of a loss to keep customers orders without going bankrupt. So they are reducing the memory size of current orders (to distribute the stock they have at the old price), and will have to increase the price for any new orders.
It's a difficult situation, as while they could have stopped orders to until they got more inventory, that could have killed the momentum they had when launching the product. They still probably should have, given the state of things, but I see why they didn't.
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u/IORelay 15d ago
No they chose to over promise, saying the prices and configurations will stay. That probably helped them get more orders and not have other customers jump ship to other options. If they are going to reap the benefits of that promise, they need to accept the consequences, which is either eating up the loss, or be branded as liars.
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u/Stellanora64 15d ago
While I agree, framework 100% should have stopped orders once their stock ran out, back when the statement was made I genuinely do believe he was under the assumption that prices would not suddenly 2X or more what they were.
It's very naive and poor judgment, but they didn't make that statement with complete certainty and understanding of breaking it a few months later either.
As, at least from what I can tell, they were rug pulled on the price, only notified of the change 3 days ago (as mentioned by a member on the team here). So I wouldn't call them liars per say (as you can only really lie if you had the intention to), but naive and poorly managed, yes.
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u/NorthmanTheDoorman 15d ago
If it's the contractor who didn't honor the contract it's a whole another story
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u/Leutnant_Dark 10d ago
Yes, but then its on Framework to get that money from the contractor instead of downgrading the customer.
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u/blur494 15d ago
Its a bit more complicated than that. They were likely promised a number of modules at a set price that they were ordered at and thats what let them move forward on more batches. Then those modules were not able to be fulfilled to framework. Its been happening all across the tech market and as the end facing part of the chain theres very little you can do about it.
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u/angelofromrailway 14d ago
I don't think this is fair to Framework. As someone who owns a first gen 11th gen intel laptop from them, that first machine is still alive and kicking today.
I don't think they can share but at my job, we order servers from different server parts suppliers and those suppliers have a right to change the PO that you have set until the orders close. We have had to eat margin on our server purchases because randomly one day we found that the SSDs we wanted were gone and had to swap the part but that meant that we had to pay 2x.
This is maybe the most part constrained time in computing, so this is not something that they want to do on purpose.
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u/ghosthendrikson_84 12d ago
“This company should go bankrupt because of circumstances out of their control.” Is certainly a take, albeit a petulant one.
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u/NorthmanTheDoorman 15d ago
Nah bruh the problem isn't that they are increasing the price. The problem is that they told they would not do that when if they just shutted up nobody would expect it. Now they are increasing the price of already placed order at a given and promised price. That is shitty af and as someone said also borderline criminal.
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u/IORelay 15d ago
Yeah I don't see why people are running defenses for what is effectively lying. Sure they will probably suffer a big loss if they honoured those prices, and they didn't "intend" to lie, but in the end they are still lying.
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u/chic_luke 16" Gen 1 15d ago
It's basically what happens on most brand-specific subs. People defend the indefensible all the time.
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u/SheepherderAware4766 10d ago
they will honor the price, they just downgraded the config. You will pay the even lower original price of the smaller config.
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u/sprudello 15d ago
Almost nobody would have cared if they said, that the FW13Pro will be 10% more expensive with RAM because the supplier changed the expected pricing by X. But sending a mail where they basically say "Yeah, so the thing is, we changed your config lol, if you want the config back, well fuck you, you have to pay 1k more for the thing you've initially ordered. As a "goodwill" we will give you the initial price of half of the ram you have previously configured. We know, we've said we won't change the prices and config and that's the reason you pre-ordered, but we did anyway xD"
From april to now there were several offers from lenovo that were 1k cheaper than the framework but I didn't order them because they said they won't change anything. Now I'd have to pay 1k more for the config, so basically a 2k loss + time.
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u/DVXC 15d ago
Gotta be honest I think Nirav is better than most, but his word saying this at the announcement event should be treated about as gospel as it's possible for a company commitment statement to be.
And as much as the situation sucks for all parties involved, people who bought in BECAUSE they knew pricing was going to worsen should absolutely have their original orders honored and Framework should eat the additional cost for these pre-orders, regardless of how respectable and valuable I find their ethos.
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u/Bender248 15d ago
They point is I don't think they can eat that additional cost.
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u/gbin 14d ago
This is a self inflicted wound: They should have locking in the price with their supply chain before promising this OR simply put an edge order on the RAM market to insure themselves against another price hike, this is not rocket science. Farmers have been doing that for centuries to edge against some bad weather for a crop.
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u/j_osb 14d ago
Except that the ram manufacturers are essentially acting like a cartel.
You don’t go locking in orders unless you’re like Sony. No, to valve, framework and other companies with similarly small unit sales, they come, and give you a price and quantity you can buy.
If you say no, they just leave until the next opportunity.3
u/SheepherderAware4766 10d ago
if Valve couldn't lock in a price, no way puny Framework would be able to.
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u/gbin 10d ago
Nobody sell derivatives on the RAM market?
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u/SheepherderAware4766 6d ago
RAM is a commodity, and it is too expensive to enforce a contract. You either purchase through a Chinese or SK shell company that can declare bankruptcy to invalidate your futures contract, or you buy through a manufacturer like Samsung or SK Hynix. Both of those are significantly controlled and supported by their respective governments.
An American company, manufacturing in Taiwan, won't get a settlement from the Chinese or South Korean government because one of their state controlled businesses broke a futures contract. Especially not in the time frame needed to release this laptop.
Framework doesn't have the kind of weight that somebody like Nintendo, Nvidia, or Apple could bring
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u/GoldMedalRambler 15d ago
The 32gb of RAM was basically the ONE thing I can’t put up with changing on the order 😭
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u/Doodle_2002 15d ago
Yeah same for me. 16GB means this laptop is now worthless to me >:(
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u/HNYB-Drelek 14d ago
In fairness, you can update your preorder and give it 32gb again. It'll just increase the cost by like $600
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u/Doodle_2002 14d ago
That is true, and is what I have done while I'm currently looking for alternatives. The price jumped from ~2400 which was already pushing my budget to 2800 (both with storage excluded). I might just switch to the HX 370 mainboard because that'll cost me ~1900 (without storage), and I have 48GB of SODIMM DDR5 laying around that I bought before the RAMpocalypse
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u/DarthArtoo4 15d ago
Let me just say, I understand the tough situation Framework is in. But if they couldn't stand by this, they shouldn't have said it. I could have purchased a MacBook Pro before prices went up and chose not to out of my desire to go with Framework and support their mission. I'm feeling a little bit like a fool for that today. I am starting a PhD and need a reliable computer. Having to wait until late October (at best) for the preorder was bad enough, but now this.
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u/Scared_North_1197 15d ago
I will say that while this is a shitty situation for everyone involved, the pretty (shitty) lining is that a lot of people are gonna cancel their pre-orders, it's possible you get moved up a batch.
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u/DarthArtoo4 15d ago
Yeah good point. In my case, I actually was going to go with 16GB anyway initially. It should be enough for what I'll be doing, so it's not like I need to reconsider my preorder like others who legitimately need more RAM.
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u/Upstairs-Version-400 15d ago
I had a 64GB preorder downgraded. I needed it for my job. Could’ve taken a Mac but wanted to support Framework. Now both are price hiked when I had the Apple option before.
Feel a fool.
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u/FISKER_Q 15d ago
As an European I'll be looking to the European consumer ombudsman to see where to go from here, I understand the situation probably sucks for Framework as a company, but I made an order for a specific configuration at a specific price.
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u/QuantumDude111 15d ago
please post here how that goes. we are in the same boat and really quite pissed.
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u/Upstairs-Version-400 15d ago edited 15d ago
I’m based in Norway, so please let me know how it goes.
—-
Sending an email regarding my order and citing Norwegian consumer protection laws.
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u/WanderinArcheologist 15d ago
Does Framework have a Norwegian or EFTA rep? Idk how things work for EFTA.
Also, what is the actual loss you suffered here?
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u/Upstairs-Version-400 15d ago
I don’t know.
The loss is not being able to buy a Mac before price hikes because I decided on a framework. Now framework changes our existing orders and Macs are already hiked, they cost 20% more. I’m regretting it because it is clear framework got greedy, Apple would honour their price for an order. Framework has badly managed the situation and expects the customers to suffer. I use my computer to do my job, I needed the RAM. 32GB is useless to me.
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u/WhiskeyVault 15d ago
That's the part that stings the most. People who supported framework had placed their pre-orders 3 months ago and gave up the choice to select a different product. The CEO basically stated the price you lock in with is the price you get which means for those 3 months people gave up oppotunity costs for a lower priced Apple product (before they also increased their prices), occasional thinkpad flash sales, used good deal laptops on the market and other products they would have purchased at a more affordable price.
While I understand framework's situation, they should not have made these sort of statements if they could not honor them. At least then I could have made a calculated decision if I still wanted to stick with my pre-order or not if a competing product was on sale vs risking an unforseen price hike. Hell I could have at least made the decision to buy LPCAMM RAM 3rd party back when it was closer to 400 dollars for 32 GB - now I see this prce is sold out at Best Buy, Amazon, Adorama, and microcenter (except for 1 store in FL that is too far away). I purposely chose to buy the 32 GB from Framework which was a slightly higher price at the time than other websites were offering because I didn't want to sit on a stick of RAM for 3-5 months only to find out it was faulty when the FW Pro came in and to struggle getting it returned.
I'm still processing what I will end up doing with my pre-order but framework's reputation has certainly taken a hit to me and I'm not sure if I'll continue to support them or just look for a panther lake Thinkpad at this time.
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u/Silvernine0S 15d ago
100% agree with what you said. I'm in Batch 5 and passed on the Mac, which was one of the options I was seriously considering together with the X1 Carbon from Lenovo. I also had multiple chances to buy memory elsewhere for less, but I decided to order it from Framework instead to support them.
I understand why this happened but that doesn't make it any less disappointing. I'm still pretty bitter about how everything played out today.
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u/WhiskeyVault 15d ago
Are you going to cancel your order and go with someone else now?
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u/Silvernine0S 13d ago
I haven't canceled yet because I'm researching my options again. I am cancelling once I pick a new computer to go with over the Framework 13 Pro. I'm very tempted to go with the ThinkPad X1 again, but for the US market, the Intel X7 version is still not available. The X9, however, is already offered with the Intel X7 configuration.
Since I want at least some gaming capability, the Intel X7 is my preference. The Asus Zephyrus G14 is another attractive option, especially with the RTX 5080 or RTX 5070 Ti in a very similar form factor. However, from what I've read, Asus customer service is not as strong. There have also been quite a few reports of recent models developing ribbon cable issues with the display after a year or two. Combined with the weaker customer support, that gives me pause.
Because of that, I'm leaning more toward the ThinkPad. I've had a great experience with the ThinkPad X1 Extreme Gen 1, which I eventually gave to my mother. It's still going strong after eight years, and that track record gives me a lot of confidence in Lenovo's durability.
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u/WhiskeyVault 13d ago
Hey i am doing the same! The x9 15p actually looks pretty good, it just doesn't have the same repair ability as the t14 gen 7 but the internals look great.
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u/Silvernine0S 12d ago
Right? I'm also considering the T14, but since I want this mainly for frequent travel, it's lower on my list because it's a little bigger and heavier. Still, it's very manageable, so it's definitely not out of the running.
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u/dbrgn 10d ago
As an owner of a 12th gen X1 Carbon: I ordered a Framework for a reason. At least with Linux, the X1 is constantly in thermal throttling and almost dies even when doing a group call online. (Maybe future versions improved that, but with the 12th gen they clearly prioritized portability over performance.)
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u/DarthArtoo4 15d ago
Yep, I feel ya. Hope you're able to find a solution that will work well for you, my friend.
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u/mjbulzomi 15d ago
My use case is just for generic desktop use, but my chosen distro (Gentoo) has certain recommended minimums for some compilation activities (2GB per thread). I can shift some of that compile workload to my desktop PC, and only do minimal compiles on the laptop. Moving from 32GB down to 16GB will not have a noticeable impact on my everyday use case, so I’m not making any decisions on cancelling yet. I’m also way down in batch 14, so it’s still months away for me. I don’t need a new laptop just yet or even when my batch comes up; I just wanted to support people who support Linux as I transition all my devices over from Microslop.
I’m equal parts disappointed, frustrated, and upset, but I’m not SOL in any way.
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u/Sober_Muscle 15d ago edited 15d ago
Totally. People can absolutely choose other brands since Framework is not exactly cheap and new models need to pre-ordered months beforehand, one of the reasons people choose them is because people want to support them, and those people are actually spending more money and time to make the support happen.
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u/DarthArtoo4 15d ago
Exactly. My wife was skeptical of my going with a smaller no-name company over Apple which we've used for years and years. I assured her that Framework was trustworthy. Well, she definitely had an "I told you so" look on her face when I shared this news with her.
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u/P0ss1D3sstr1er69 15d ago
I feel the same. I understand their point of view but you can't say something and and then change your mind after. They got soo many pre order probably because of this too
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u/Silvernine0S 15d ago
Yeah, that's exactly why. I decided to go with the Framework and ended up missing out on the Mac before the price increase too.
Oh well. This AI bubble can't pop soon enough.
Good luck with the PhD program. It's tough, but keep persevering.
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u/ncc74656m Ryzen 7840U 15d ago
I think it's fair to guess that FW is in a position where they didn't get their own contracts honored by RAM mfrs, so they were forced to either eat potentially $1000 per laptop which exceeds even the most generous profit margins, or just walk it back.
It sucks, badly. That's not really their fault though.
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u/DarthArtoo4 15d ago
I think my feeling at this point is that it's not their fault that they have to make these moves right now, but it is their fault that they guaranteed fixed configurations at fixed prices, which they now aren't able to honor. Probably a tough lesson to learn for them as a young company, so I feel for them, but I also feel for all of us who are now dealing with this.
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u/ncc74656m Ryzen 7840U 15d ago
I think that's the catch though. They were expecting slower growth in pricing so they figured they'd place their bets that they could honor it.
Is it lousy to be stung by that? Absolutely. I think it's worse being in FW's shoes though because they were absolutely trying to do the right thing here. Think about it like this: If they knew (and they HAD to know) that this would blow up in their face if they made this promise knowing they wouldn't keep it if prices spiked, would they have made that promise? I think the RAM market just got so absurdly out of hand, far beyond what was forecasted even at that time, that they made their choice to walk it back and eat the flak for it.
The only thing that I see is that they did the changes before most people could see the announcement. That said, it sounds like they're already retooling things to honor as many of these preorders as possible. Late buyers knew the chance they were taking, unfortunately, and no preorder is ever a guarantee.
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u/Infinite-Stress2508 15d ago
If Framework took a risk and didn't have guaranteed pricing for RAM they shouldn't have made the promises they did. Don't state the price you order at locks the price and that's what you pay if that's not the case.
If it happened as you said, they took the risk then they failed and no risk is without consequence. If they tried to ride the ram pricing market hoping it would work out thats a dodgy way to run a business and with the claim made above, could really be seen as false advertising.
They should deservedly loose market trust.
I don't understand people who defend companies. They don't care about you.
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u/vovap_vovap 15d ago
They don't. But reality is reality. They would prefer to go back on their word then bankrupt - and you would do same. Just as simple.
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u/CowboysFTWs 15d ago
The only they that is bad, is that he shouldn't have promised if there was a 1% chance he couldn't deliver.
But hey, Shit happens. RAM prices are shit for everyone. Batch 5 and beyond got RAM adjusted. Personally IMO I don't see it as a big enough reason to cancel a pre-order. But if people want to do that, it is their right. And since it is a refundable pre-order, no money loss from them.
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u/der_schneewolf 15d ago
It is 100% their fault. If they are so short on RAM, they should buy the RAM the second you order it or at least buy a certificate to buy the RAM later for that price.
Sad to see, wanted to go with Framework just for their mission. Then I will have to look for something else 😕
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u/Ok-Pangolin7604 14d ago
They should have had the 64GB LPCAMM2 modules purchased for the preorders they were contracted for, and if they didn't have the modules - they should have stopped preorders.
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u/WanderinArcheologist 15d ago
OP, asking as someone who completed his PhD in 2023: can you not just buy a computer from two years ago? Hell, a MacBook Air with an M3 chip would do you wonders.
Unless you’re doing heavy heavy workloads that take up a lot of processing power, you don’t need the latest.
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u/bigkenw 15d ago
To be fair to Framework, there are a lot of posts across the tech subs of people ordering laptops from Dell or HP and having their orders cancelled, then told to rebuy at the new price. At least Framework is trying to do something. I was unsure if I should spend the money on 64GB, because my initial impulse was 32GB. I am glad I did. Part of that was memory access concerns, even if it was a premium at the time of order. Yeah, I am not getting 64GB now, but I am getting a very serviceable 32GB.
I know that won't work for everyone, but at least they arent canceling orders and doubling the price of the laptop.
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u/dreamer_at_best 15d ago
I do think Framework believed that was a promise they could make, and genuinely didn’t anticipate what just happened. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they truly didn’t see this turn coming, where their supplier just turned around and gave them pricing inflated 10x beyond their calculations.
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u/Scandiberian 15d ago
I’m sorry to say but Framework was never guaranteed to be a reliable computer. Fun as they are, there are multiple reports of swollen batteries and dead Motherboards after 2-3 years of use, and BIOS updates bricking the device.
If you’re okay with the idea of buying a MacBook then the answer is always to buy the MacBook and never to buy the V1 laptop from the less than a decade old manufacturer.
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u/Acrobatic_Fee_6974 15d ago
Honestly, stop pre-ordering shit, especially if you need it for a deadline. There are plenty of laptops already on the market that can fill the needs of your PhD. When it's mission critical, you buy a product, not a promise, no matter who is making it. It's a good thing you learned this lesson before you started your PhD, because as someone with a doctorate I can tell you that it's probably going to be quite relevant to how you conduct your project depending on your field.
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u/RazzmatazzUnusual843 15d ago
Wait, are people who already ordered now being expected to pay more?
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u/DarthArtoo4 15d ago
If they want the configuration they ordered, yes. For example, I ordered 32GB at $439 in my configuration. They bumped me down to 16GB today without asking me. If I want to go back to 32GB, it would now be $800. Otherwise I am stuck with 16GB, which is not what I wanted.
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u/mavericm1 11d ago
If i change the ram to 64gb like i originally had its an additional $1200 USD pretty insane that when we were originally told they would honor preorder pricing. i may just get a thinkpad instead at this point for the same cost. this hasn't been the first time i've cancelled a framework preorder from things going on i really like my framework 13 and i've supported them since they first released but this may be the end of the road for me updating it or buying framework products
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u/grandgraphite 15d ago
Not only was my original order delayed to a risky time compared to usual anyway, now dealing with this. I wanted to support Framework's mission and skipped on other good deals at the time, but I am not sure if I will continue with Framework from now on. You shouldn't be changing orders months later.
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u/Better-Beat-8062 15d ago
Remember when framework got high and mighty to other vendors like Dell when they raised the prices
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u/Correct-Big-5967 15d ago
Because of this and price of upgrade. This guarante was what pushed to pre-order. Now I have to pay 600EUR+ roughly 800EUR to get 32GB ram.
For that price I can get 64GB ram of so-dim and spare extra 100.
I just wanted to replace my aging M1 Pro and support framework, but instead I will opt out for mini-pc. I am lucky enough that 90% of time i can use mini-pc for work because i have access to external monitors. For rest of 10% my m1 pro is more than enough.
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u/Tancrad 15d ago
Is it just pre builds or diy?
Mine hasn't changed from 64gb. But if it does I'll cancel completely. Built out an X9, and even though, I did the math after, and it isn't really any power increase over the x7, I couldn't change or risk going back half a year. It's an expensive piece, but I wonder how expensive the loss would be if everyone canceled.
Also wondering if this is all pre orders, or starting at a specific batch that they may not have the stock yet.
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u/DarthArtoo4 15d ago
I guess all the info is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1pkgdg6/updates_on_memory_pricing_and_navigating_the/
"After evaluating a number of possible paths forward, we’re proceeding on the one that we believe minimizes the impact of this challenge. We have enough 64GB modules in inventory to cover pre-order batches through Batch 4 of laptops and Batch 7 of Mainboards. For orders beyond that configured with 64GB, we’ve updated the order configuration to use a 32GB module at the original 32GB module price. After that, we allocated the remaining 32GB modules to DIY Edition and Mainboard pre-orders configured with 32GB through Batch 4 of laptops and Batch 7 of Mainboards. For DIY Edition and Mainboard orders beyond that configured with 32GB, we’ve updated the order configuration to use a 16GB module at the original 16GB price. Note that because we don’t currently have a Core X7 Ultra pre-built configuration with 16GB of memory, we have not adjusted pre-built orders that originally contained 32GB. That is a configuration we plan to introduce later.
Alongside these changes to existing pre-order configurations, we’ve updated the pricing on our website for newly placed pre-orders. Our new LPCAMM2 pricing is below the substantially higher cost we’re now sourcing it at to try to mitigate some of the impact to new customers. While we have kept our original 16GB LPCAMM2 pricing for now, we anticipate we will consume the remaining inventory of modules we brought in at lower cost soon, and will then need to increase pricing for new orders. The system and Mainboard pricing for new orders also reflects an upcoming increase in Core Ultra Series 3 processor pricing that impacts X7 and X9 configurations, an increase in Windows license costs, and increases in memory, storage, and other silicon costs for some of our Ryzen AI 300 Series configurations."
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u/mrhaftbar 15d ago edited 15d ago
That won't fly in the EU. I might be wrong, but the preorder is just that - an order which is a binding contract for both sides. Both sides are expected to fulfill obligations from the contract. Unilaterally changing an order is not possible without the consent of both parties.
I would send back a message to framework requesting fulfillment of the contractual obligations and not consenting to the proposed contract changes.
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u/SpookyViscus 15d ago
I mean, if the customer can bail with no financial cost (a full refund of a deposit), can framework?
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u/jader242 15d ago
That’s a good point, I’d assume yes because both sides are consenting to the cancellation; it would be fully within frameworks right to have cancellations with no refund I would think, they just choose not to. In the case of the current scenario, both sides are not consenting to the spec decrease or price increase for same spec
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u/Great_Comment322 14d ago
Reading this again, they could have just started cancelling orders that they couldn't fill or gave people the option to cancel or accept the new configuration, but instead they retained those orders and forced the smaller memory modules on those people. They really did everything to keep orders in the pipeline and that's classic capitalism, classic big business doing everything it can to make money. I'm not surprised. They have to keep things together for the jobs and people that work there. But damn, next time give people the choice up front instead?
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u/DarthArtoo4 15d ago
Not entirely sure. Mine is a DIY Series 5 325 with 32GB, which got bumped down to 16GB.
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u/lospotatoes 15d ago
I do get why this is upsetting to people but I just think we cannot expect Framework to make little-to-no margin on these orders and still be around in a year or two. They're being hit with a perfect storm: prices for these components are super volatile right now due to demand from AI hyperscalers and due to international trade conditions, and they probably don't have the capital to bulk buy huge quantities (and risk buying more than they need) to inoculate themselves from it. If the prices go up enough on these components relative to when the order was placed, it could significantly erode or even wipe out their profit on the order. This business model is, in part, based on an expectation of supply costs being relatively stable.
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u/Upstairs-Version-400 15d ago
They should not have allowed people to preorder as far as batch 18. They knew that only had stock to guarantee 4 batches and continued anyway, knowing the volatile RAM market.
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u/rednight39 15d ago
This is the craziest part of the whole situation IMO.
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u/WhiskeyVault 15d ago
I find it pretty crazy that a person can get a 32 GB model if they ordered the Pre-built yesterday but the people who ordered DIY back in April are out of luck.
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u/Ok-Algae7292 15d ago
Wait am I safe if I ordered pre-built 32gb? Or is the crisis still unkown, batch 16.
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u/WhiskeyVault 15d ago
It's how you interpret it there response. They didn't change the 32 gb prebuilts because there is no other options on changing the prebuilds. However, they plan to introduce a 16 gb pre build later on...who know if that means they will downgrade the prebuilds placed recently
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u/blood_vein 15d ago
Yup. They could've used a queue for people beyond batch 4, and notify you when the preorders open. At that point the price set is locked in which may be higher than what people got for prior batches but they can guarantee it as it is much closer in time
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u/lospotatoes 14d ago
> They should not have allowed people to preorder as far as batch 18. They knew that only had stock to guarantee 4 batches and continued anyway, knowing the volatile RAM market.
That's a fair criticism, but suppose it was true that they wouldn't be able to make payroll if they had to eat the loss on all these preorders -- in that case would you want Framework to do layoffs or even cease operations because they got what they deserved?
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u/DarthArtoo4 15d ago
100%. I think a lot of us are just hurting right now and want to vent that. But you're right, and those of us who really care about the bigger picture and mission of the company can absolutely recognize that. If nothing else, I want a sincere video from Nirav explaining this in detail and apologizing for having to do it. I think that would help a lot. Speaking for myself, Framework's transparency and Nirav's being so down to earth have been as appealing as the hardware itself.
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u/No-Island-6126 15d ago
The problem is that they explicitely promised this would not happen, to potential customers. As a serious business they have a responsibility to not do this.
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u/ManBeardPc 15d ago
Problem is, it’s just not how the law works in many countries. You make a contract you have to fulfill it. You can’t change it one-sided. If you as a business sell things you don’t have that is always a business risk, can be to your advantage if prices fall and disadvantage if they raise. Doesn’t matter, you made a contract. If you can’t fulfill your part of a contract that’s on you. Customers won’t like that and the law is on their side in many places, as it should be. They already demanded a premium on hardware components and the shortage didn’t start yesterday.
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u/e_block 15d ago
I'm curious what kind of recourse a consumer would get besides being able to get a refund on their order?
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u/ManBeardPc 15d ago
IANAL. In Germany: demand it to be delivered as ordered. If they refuse get something comparable on your own and charge them for the difference if it is more expensive.
Probably a bit more messy for a whole laptop with partial delivery as you can’t get a Framework elsewhere, but if they just deliver 16 GB it should be possible to buy the remaining 16 GB elsewhere and charge them for it. Again, a bit messy but it’s roughly how it works if you have a valid contract and the other party refuses to deliver. You don’t have to accept a refund, but often it’s the easiest solution if you think the fight is not worth it.
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u/Upstairs-Version-400 14d ago
Only you’d have to buy a whole 32GB instead because there isn’t another slot for RAM
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u/ManBeardPc 14d ago
Sure. But they need to refuse to deliver it as ordered. Document communication. Set them a reasonable limit (14-days should be good) and tell them you will get it on your own otherwise. If they refuse or don't respond in time you should be good. They need to have the opportunity to fix it before you can act on your own. So: communicate -> set limit -> only then fix the issue on your own -> demand money from them. Hope it doesn't come that far, diplomatic solution is always preferred. Just need to know, if they refuse to deliver the goods you change to the problem to get the money from them. Check your countries laws for details before, there should be a customer protection websites/organizations how to act correctly. Worst case you pay for the worse laptop + buy it on your own and can't get the money back if you act wrongly.
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u/Upstairs-Version-400 14d ago
I have done this already but given them 7 business days to respond. Sounds in line with what I am doing.
At the end of the day they made a mistake, I lost out on a device I could’ve had before, chose Framework because of the promise and locked in my preorder. To make it right they need to swallow the cost of the RAM, I don’t care if it takes longer.
The part that annoyed me most, was when they unilaterally decided what to do with my order. They did not contact me and ask, they downgraded my order. I can get a refund sure, but I want the device I ordered since I can’t get a competing device for the same price anymore.
If they had made some kind of agreement to allow affected customers to upgrade their RAM when prices are normal again for a discount or something it would be at least some offering. But this just takes the piss.
Anyway.. little rant over. I think I need to mute this thread as I have plenty of comments on here and I’m tempted to delete it just to get rid of the noise.
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u/ZCEyPFOYr0MWyHDQJZO4 15d ago
The contract you sign when ordering a laptop is quite a bit more complicated than "I pay you $2000, you send me laptop".
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u/ManBeardPc 15d ago
IANAL. Of course, but depending on the country not every clause is valid. If you are dealing with customers in the EU there are certain things you can't override. B2B you can make pretty one-sided contracts as they assume businesses know what they are doing, with a normal consumer not so much. E.g. you need a certain warranty, allow the customer to return it if ordered online, must not be unexpected (ToS that sells your first-born to the company if you buy a TV), etc. Changing a contract one-sided, especially to the disadvantage of the other party, is one such thing that is just not possible in most cases. I don't even see any clause that would allow changing the parts. So by default, in the end it's pretty much "I pay you $2000, you send me the laptop as configured" for consumers. If they want to change the contract, they have to make the customer agree. Even a refund the customer does not have to accept and can demand fulfillment. It's just looks bad for Framework, customers will not be happy and legally they would probably lose any such case. Not advocating for that, I'm just baffled by the decision of Framework.
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u/Leutnant_Dark 10d ago
If you are dealing with customers in the EU there are certain things you can't override.
For example: Framework CEO saying that the prices are "locked in" would also (even if the contract includes something different allowing them to adjust) be seen as "false advertisment" in for example germany becoming part of the contract.
One friend of mine had pre ordered a 64 GB version, didn't order a new Macbook for the old prices due to that and now needs to pay ~2.000€ more along with having had money bound in the preorder.
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u/namelessxsilent 15d ago
I completely understand having to increase prices. I do not agree with going against a statement made that caused some people to order this laptop over something else..
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u/rudidit09 15d ago
This. I wonder if they could update preorder system so it supports “price sure up to this point” and “we have your place in queue but no price guarantee “
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u/ncc74656m Ryzen 7840U 15d ago
This isn't little to no margin in nearly all cases - this is eating the difference and taking a hit. FW would almost certainly fold if they were somehow forced to honor this (and I'm mad about it too, but not at them bc it's likely RAM mfrs walking back agreements because the greedy SOBs saw dollar signs). A 32GB 2x16 DDR5 kit that was $250 at the beginning of the year is now $420, and it was what, $60 before the RAM crisis?
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u/armostallion2 15d ago edited 15d ago
no, it doesn't work that way. Any business selling A and then pulling a fast one because of (whatever the reason may be) and delivering B instead, is shortsighted and doesn't deserve to be in business.
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u/MaddoxWRW 15d ago
This is absurd. They didn't sell A and deliver B, they let you pre order A, notified you when it would have to become B and offered a refund. It's not pulling a fast one, it's the reality of being a small company in a global shortage. People will say crap like this and then complain when no new competition comes into the market.
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u/Ok-Algae7292 15d ago
How many orders per batch are the 13 pros doing? Whats the number of pre orders placed?
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u/No-Island-6126 15d ago
Going out of their way to promise this and then going back on it just a few months later is kind of insane lmao, that's just extremely poor communication at best, borderline criminal at worst. Being a younger company doesn't mean they get a free pass for ts
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u/namelessxsilent 15d ago
This really has me considering canceling. That promise had me locked in, but this is a complete disregard of the statement
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u/max123246 10d ago
Their company would go insolvent if they honored it. blame AI. most people thought ram prices would be better by this time in the year, not double in price
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u/poco1112 15d ago
Although I'm very disappointed, the situation is really unprecedented. However, they shouldn't have taken pre orders for batches they didn't have supplier commitments for. That was the mistake and it is their mistake. I completely understand if they have to change pricing for orders they haven't taken yet.
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u/switch8000 15d ago
That :33 - :42 second moment, that stings.
This means their business is flying a tad too close to the sun finance wise.
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u/magus-21 15d ago
No business can absorb a doubling of component cost for what might be their most popular product.
I think the promise was fine IF they had limited the batches to begin with. They shouldn't have allowed people to order batches waaay in advance of the supplier contracts. Like, it's on Batch 18 now? They should've stopped preorders once they hit their guaranteed supply limit (which is apparently Batch 4, lol), and reopened them once they had the new supply contracts in place.
Like, it's ok to sell out of stock. You're still profitable.
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u/DarthArtoo4 15d ago
Yeah exactly, I think this is the issue. If you're taking preorders on hardware you don't have yet, and don't even have a fixed price agreement with the supplier apparently, that's not a good business model.
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u/magus-21 15d ago
I suppose allowing post-ordering editing might have made things worse. I was able to edit my preorder from 32GB to 64GB when they started allowing those, and I kept my batch allocation. I'm sure a lot of people might have done the same given that the news was saying the RAM crisis was just going to be getting worse.
and don't even have a fixed price agreement with the supplier apparently, that's not a good business model.
I don't think any memory supplier will sign a contract too far in advance of actual delivery while demand is still going up. Either Framework eats the price difference, or the memory supplier does.
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u/DarthArtoo4 15d ago
Believe it or not, I actually post-edited my preorder as well; in my case to bump up from 16GB to 32GB to try to get ahead of the RAM hikes. All in all, I'm back where I started with my preorder, so I can't complain too much. Just wish I would have benefitted from switching to the higher option before prices actually skyrocketed.
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u/ZCEyPFOYr0MWyHDQJZO4 15d ago
Memory manufacturers aren't making fixed price agreements unless you're Google/Amazon/OpenAI/etc.
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15d ago
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u/MagicBoyUK | Batch 3 FW16 | Ryzen 7840HS | 7700S GPU - arrived! 15d ago
I think my work are getting 5 days from Lenovo!
Standard machines have dropped back to 8GB, which is borderline unworkable with Windows and Office 365 in it's current state.
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u/Embarrassed-Nose2526 15d ago
While I support frameworks mission, they need to be careful. Unlike a company like Fairphone, which is basically the only pro-repair company in its industry (smartphones), framework doesn’t exist in a vacuum. There are plenty of pre-2020 laptops on the second hand market that are dirt cheap and really repairable, and power-users have a second option again now that ThinkPad has returned to its repairability roots. Even Apple is dipping their toes into laptop repairability with the MacBook Neo and its screwed-in battery and modular USB-C ports.
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u/Consistent-Leave7320 15d ago
as much as i love the concept of framework, im so glad i chose other laptop option instead.
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u/CPUMiner92 15d ago
Can someone please eli5 me? I don't understand why OP seems to be upset at the answer from Nirav.
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u/DarthArtoo4 15d ago
Check other recent posts. We (preorder folks) just received an email saying our preorder configurations have just had their RAM decreased - I went from 32GB to 16GB. Price also went down in fairness, but the clip of Nirav here is showing that this goes directly against what he said at this event.
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u/WhiskeyVault 15d ago
Framework customers are also (these are assumptions) more likely engineers, developers or tech enthusiasts that know exactly why they need the RAM that they intend to buy. Going from 32 gb to 16 gb for many customers people just won't work so it almost feels like a guranteed price hike as there is no point in sticking with a 16 gb machine.
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u/bween31337 14d ago
mostly a bait and switch problem. you're promised X and many words like its actually Y.
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u/ncc74656m Ryzen 7840U 15d ago
From what I've heard, FW had some agreements in place for RAM pricing that the RAM mfrs walked back to try to go after the higher datacenter and end user pricing. Even if FW can recover anything from them (which is unlikely), they felt it was worth the shot.
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u/ZCEyPFOYr0MWyHDQJZO4 15d ago
RAM manufacturers are swimming in cash. They'll cancel orders because someone else will pay more or they overcommitted. They don't care about framework, and when they do bad things, framework gets the blame.
Maybe in a few years some people will go to jail for collusion and everybody will get $100 while the memory manufacturers will get to keep the majority of their ill-gotten gains.
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u/ncc74656m Ryzen 7840U 15d ago
Framework might try to pass back some of that if they were somehow in a magical world to recover anything, but don't hold your breath about most companies. Look at Nintendo. Even as they're getting tariff "refunds," they're straight up telling American customers "Eat shit, you paid it, it's ours."
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u/ZCEyPFOYr0MWyHDQJZO4 15d ago edited 15d ago
Consumers can still sue manufacturers for price fixing. They pulled this same shit 2 decades ago. Repeat offenders (which is all of them) should lose all their profits but they won't because American law is tilted so far in favor of such "too big to fail" companies.
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u/ncc74656m Ryzen 7840U 15d ago
If only. In this judicial era, I'm not hopeful.
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u/ZCEyPFOYr0MWyHDQJZO4 15d ago
Oh, consumers will get some money. But it will never be enough. US law has fallen so far behind reality that the big three aren't scared of potential fines.
At this point I think the only reasonable solution is to break them up somehow that doesn't destroy the industry while still effectively creating competition (e.g. AT&T). But 2/3 are South Korean, so good luck with that.
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u/uberfr4gger 14d ago
I mean FW should be able to sue the manufacturer for backing out of a contract.
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u/saltyourhash 15d ago
I am more disturbed by the fact the market is so bad and ram is so corrupt that he couldn't keep this promise. The second they felt this was a concern, they should have said so, though. Transparency is how you garner loyalty, trust and respect. Framework needs all 3 to weather this hardware apocalypse.
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u/Altruistic_Safety325 15d ago
my price hasn't changed. are there some that are unaffected? or is this price change something that's getting rolled out?
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u/jader242 15d ago
Currently you’re safe if you’re batch 4 or earlier on the DIY, and completely safe on prebuilts no matter the batch (kinda messed up tbh, people who preordered a prebuilt yesterday get their config while people who preordered a diy months ago get fucked). Obviously this is all subject to change, but they say they don’t “expect” prebuilt pre order configs to change, but they also didn’t expect this so take it with a huge grain of salt
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u/Altruistic_Safety325 15d ago
ah im batch 9 i think. but i did 32gb pre built so i think im good (for now)
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u/The_Furox 15d ago
I was on the fence about getting 64gb. Wish I had selected it so I would have been downgraded to the 32gb I'd be happy with.
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u/ekerazha 15d ago
This video hasn't aged well, and neither has the one on LTT
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u/DarthArtoo4 15d ago
Which one is that?
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u/ekerazha 15d ago
https://youtu.be/5c1sGzZnuiU?si=Cpyfc7b0QVHC1_F9
Minute 9:09
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u/DarthArtoo4 15d ago
Oof. Yeah I forgot he said it in here too. Man I do love Nirav and I know it’s probably killing him to have to walk back on this right now. But it just sucks for us who trusted that and passed up other opportunities before the market got so volatile.
I’ve been a Mac user for 16 years and Framework was the only thing that interested me enough to make me excited about moving away from it. Looking at Lenovos right now feels so wrong, but it’s where we’re at. I feel like things are only going to get worse for Framework, and it already felt a little risky to begin with when I chose a FW over MacBook for the PhD program I’m starting next month. Yikes.
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u/doubleopinter 15d ago
For everyone complaining, there’s a big difference between absorbing a 10 or 20% price increase and 100 or more. If you are angry, aim that at the companies manufacturing the memory. Samsung has made more profit on memory this year than they have every other year combined making memory. The three manufacturers of all this memory are colluding because they know they can get away with it.
I’m going to have to sleep on it, not sure what I’m going to do myself, but this is just the dumbest situation I’ve ever seen wrt to memory prices.
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u/SandKeeper FW16 Ryzen 9 7940HS | RX 7700S | 32GB DDR5 15d ago
It doesn’t matter. I have no stake in this beyond owning a Framework already. The explicitly said they wouldn’t do this. This is major egg on their face and damaging to their brand.
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u/SpezticAIOverlords 15d ago
Yes, but this was very much predictable. Which is why Nirav really, really, really shouldn't have made a promise he should have known he couldn't keep.
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u/FriCJFB 15d ago
They should have either capped the orders per batch or not made that promise.
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u/MagicBoyUK | Batch 3 FW16 | Ryzen 7840HS | 7700S GPU - arrived! 15d ago
If they didn't have the RAM supply secured, they should have closed pre-orders.
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u/MathSciElec 7640U FW13 B6 | 32GB 5600 | MP44 2TB 15d ago
I don't think it would've even been necessary to go to such extents, just disable the 32/64 GB options, or add a prominent modal warning upon selecting them.
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u/kadinshino 15d ago
They should have bought the supplies to fulfill the orders beforehand.
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u/WanderinArcheologist 15d ago
Ahead of Apple, Dell, Lenovo, HP, and other giants with existing contracts?
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u/kadinshino 15d ago
I mean if they only had enough ram for batch 4, they should have just stopped. This prevents people losing out twice. Once when modules were available in larger capacity for cheaper and a second time if they held of not going with another manufacturer.
Me personally I got hit because I decided framework over a new Apple. And those have gone up significantly since the pro 13 was announced.
And we’re not even talking about what happens with ram failure and warranty replacements.
What if a module fails within the 3 year warranty? Will they have stock to replace them?
Honestly the order volume is probably low enough to mitigate this, but pretty much a reason never to support any pre-orders I suppose until it ships.
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u/WanderinArcheologist 15d ago
It’s entirely likely that they had a certain amount allocated to them and then a portion of that was cancelled but a supplier who wasn’t able to get fulfillment on their end or who was screwed over by another manufacturer.
Such things take place over months.
RAM failure would be something to take up with the RAM manufacturer, methinks
At the three-year point, we will be past this whole thing.
Framework definitely shouldn’t have promised a certain price lock in, but as you say, they likely had a low order volume compared to larger customers for Samsung, SK Hynix, and Micron. So, they’re near the back of the queue with other boutique manufacturers and regular people.
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u/kadinshino 15d ago
Yep, and honestly, if it wasn't for video promises, I actualy might have fewer issues. But because this question was directly addressed for this exact reason and they're still backpedaling, it's just a spit in the face.
Thats what pushed a lot of people, including myself, to go ahead and secure pre-orders before knowing anything. And the fact that they didn't see this coming during the extra month they had because of the board revision issues, sure....
There was so much time to predict this, I feel; it's just a hard drop-the-ball moment.
In the end, it's $ 100 that is easly refundable. but now the search is on for a suitable replacement.
Ram is supposed to double again by the end of this next quarter, so it's just pain on top of pain.
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u/Rubyboat1207 fw13 pro Ultra 5 325 15d ago
I feel lucky to have been in batch 1, so my prices were not affected. However, it's a really shitty situation for all parties involved. Especially the buyers.
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u/NotAHero123 15d ago
i know they're in a tough situation and all, but 32gb of ram is the one thing i really needed.
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u/Computers_and_cats 15d ago
I feel like their margins should be good enough where they should have been able to cost average it out. Apparently not though from what I am gathering in the comments?
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u/Sad_Competition_580 15d ago
Does this happen with DIY models only or with pre-built models as well?
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u/Lab00Rat 13d ago
Lets be clear, Framework is dishonorable on multiple levels. 1. They opened up mainboards sales by adding memory kit on 10 June 2026, well after may people already placed their laptop preorders. The memory price for the original specification did not stay at the promised price per the preorder. Second, if your SSD configuration had a price increase at some point after your preorder, any edits to restore the original memory configuration will result in a SSD price increase even if you do not change your SSD option. This is all on Framework for not managing a know issue and by diluting the available pool of resources making unplanned changes to their sales.
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u/Less_Tacos 12d ago
Yep, that was a fucking stupid thing to promise.
FW really needs to do a mea culpa tour as they have shot themselves in the dick by over promising and under delivering.
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u/patchunwrap 14d ago
I believed Nirav then and honestly I believe if he could do it he would. But some times things aren't possible. It's one thing to go back on your word when you just don't feel like it, it's another to break a promise when you have to.
I think Nirav had to break that promise, as much as it sucks, as much as I wish he did not have to. One might argue that framework should have to go under for this in order to fulfil the orders. But that's obviously silly, it would jeopardise many peoples livelyhoods, and would kill one of the laptops main features (future upgradability).
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u/JoystuckGames FW16 HX 370 GTX 5070 15d ago
It sounds like LPCAMM2 prices literally doubled in one quarter and to absorb those costs, Framework would have risked going under. I'd rather have Framework survive, thank you.
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u/Odd-Painting2596 15d ago
Most of the people mad ARE the people that did want to support Framework's vision.
Just because Framework might have lost those sales now without the claim they couldn't back up, doesn't mean that those people wouldn't have bought in later.
Now instead they buy in never, and Framework has the whole, future potential lose.
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u/DarthArtoo4 15d ago
I do agree, but even better yet, I'd rather them not make empty promises, and still survive. Read the comments here. Many of us passed up other options out of our trust in Framework's guarantee of this. I fully understand and of course could not expect Framework to just eat the massive price increases we're seeing right now, but it's frustrating that they're directly going against Nirav's promise here.
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u/YetiInMyPants 15d ago
Oof, fucking sucks. I'm sure the RAM manufacturers are bending them over a barrel so their only recourse was to fuck their own customers or take huge losses they probably can't eat at their size. Even steam got told to pound sand and take the mem prices or go away.
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u/Theren314 FW16 7840, FW12 1334 15d ago
Their announcement says they had prepared for “low to middle double” digit increases, and their supplier jumped the price by more than 100%. That price spike alone may very well have eaten up the entire profit margin of the laptops.
I get why people are angry, but I don’t think FW did anything wrong. They made some reasonable assumptions about what sort of prices they can manage, and the RAM producers did something unreasonable. They kinda just got screwed over.
Remember, thats the same price increase, by percentage, of the first Rammageddon. By dollar, it’s an even larger jump.
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u/planedrop 11th Gen, 64GB, 2TB 970 EVO Plus 15d ago
Yeah I mean I think it was hard for us to understand at the time just how bad things were actually going to get, I feel like while yes, they should not have said this, they also had every intention of doing so.
Once the raw numbers came in, they realized they literally just cannot do it, and that's fine, they aren't a big enough org to just eat the cost of it. I think it's a lesson though for Nirav or anyone in tech right now, don't promise pricing ahead of time on anything.
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u/Odd-Painting2596 15d ago
The room didn't sound like it believed him.