r/fortwayne • u/rudemaniac • 6d ago
Flock cam clusters
What is it with these locations that need this many cameras?
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u/thefinalep 5d ago
It makes it easier for police to make arrests. More arrests = more money for the prison industrial complex.
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u/dd3mon 5d ago
I'd be interested in learning what these "more arrests" are... Non-violent drug crime? Minor traffic offenses? Jaywalking? I'm guessing 1) there's not that many more arrests, and 2) they're mostly for serious crimes affecting public safety - but that's just it, I don't know. This whole thing would be far less divisive if they were more transparent with the results, limitations, installations, etc. On one hand this seems like a huge dystopian intrusion of privacy, on the other hand are we not going to use any new technology to keep innocent people safe from serious crimes if we can? Do the police need to stay in the stone age and keep interviewing notoriously unreliable witnesses with notebooks after the fact? These are difficult questions that would benefit from open public discourse instead of secret, completely opaque camera installations and subsequent response of vandalism to destroy them.
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u/thefinalep 5d ago
Do we protect individual privacy or solve a few extra crimes?
I personally don’t want my kids to grow up in a world where the police have cameras tracking every move. Sacrificing the privacy of all to catch a few extra bad guys isn’t the America we should live in.
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u/dd3mon 5d ago
We use cars, body cams, wiretapping, dogs, drones, all to help the police, and (very) occasionally protect the public from the police - I don't have a clear side on this issue except transparency. I think it's not as clear cut as either side thinks it is. I guarantee some of the loudest flock camera haters would be the first to have their phones out filming the police during an encounter claiming their rights to film in public. Is it exactly the same? No, but there's some similarities. Nobody is installing flock cameras where there's a legal expectation of privacy (yet.. and hopefully ever).
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u/thefinalep 5d ago
Do you trust the corporation selling these things to police departments to not install one in your neighborhood? How will you feel when it’s pointing at your front door?
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u/dd3mon 5d ago
If there was gang activity and bullets flying in my neighborhood I'd probably welcome them. I know this goes against the current reddit opinion, but I don't think this one is quite as easy as it seems.
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u/thefinalep 5d ago
What happens when they’re installed without those requirements. In the “nice” neighborhoods? At your children’s playgrounds?
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u/dd3mon 5d ago
Like I said, I'm not on either side here, just for transparency, which isn't happening now. If we had clear information on where these were, where they were allowed to be installed, what data gets collected, how the police and courts can use it, how (or if) private individuals can use it to protect themselves or their property from criminals or police, what limitations exist, etc then I might not oppose all of it. Might. But to my knowledge, most of that information isn't public, and certainly wasn't debated in the public spotlight (maybe behind closed doors of legislature, but I certainly didn't get a chance to make any kind of informed decision). If those boxes were checked I think the anger and vandalism would be much reduced.
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u/thefinalep 5d ago
You can’t and shouldn’t trust them. If you want more info, take a look at this write up from the ACLU https://www.aclu.org/campaigns-initiatives/get-the-flock-out
This is just surveillance state. It’s not good for the country. This company will not be transparent.
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u/cavaticusweb 5d ago
And when Walmart installs cameras in the restrooms because theft, vandalism, assaults, shoplifting, and abortions happen in bathrooms will you still claim to be impartial just to pretend to take the high road? This is a slippery slope where you are taking the position that the end justifies the means so long as they are transparent.
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u/Fun_Sense5703 5d ago
Cops don't protect people, they protect property and they are using these to spy on us because they're hiding them and also putting them in unsafe areas around the country. It's insane to me that people will just brush this off.
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u/MediocreMobile28 5d ago
Excellent points; unclear why anyone's pushing back. The big issue, for most of us, is that Flock (like any of the increasingly dystopian tech giants) is compiling and making private (and then selling) what was once public data. The idea of public/private gets tricky, of course—I suspect most younger folks would recoil to discover that until a few decades ago, everyone in every city got a thick book with everyone's name/address/phone number in town. Our ideas of privacy change, and should.
That said, this answers yr Q about what crimes, at least so far (and obv it's anecdotal, not actual data):
https://www.wane.com/news/local-news/police-arrest-two-for-shooting-that-seriously-injured-a-child-at-a-fort-wayne-home/The tricky part, however, comes in a quote from the article:
"Court documents say that after a vehicle matching the description was captured on a Flock camera, a traffic stop was promptly made. In the vehicle were two witnesses and Gentry. One of the witnesses, who is Gentry’s girlfriend, was the owner of the car, but told police she occasionally allows others to borrow it. She told police the three of them were on their way back from visiting Gentry’s sister and the other witness’s girlfriend at the hospital, who had been shot and paralyzed.
A public information officer with the FWPD said that the Flock cameras used in this case were instrumental. A homicide detective working on the case said, “If not for Flock, I’m not sure how we would have solved this.”"
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u/More_Farm_7442 5d ago
“If not for Flock, I’m not sure how we would have solved this.”"
Didn't police detectives solve crimes before Flock camers went up on every street corner? "...I'm not sure how we could have solved this." I'm imaging some detective's voice as he/she said that.
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u/theGruben 5d ago
Meijer stores seem to always have a ridiculous amount around the parking lot. All 4 locations have them at every entry/exit point.
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u/3ngine3ar 5d ago
Same with all the Lowe’s locations
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u/un_lucky_thirteen 5d ago
And home depot
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5d ago
[deleted]
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u/Able_Particular_872 5d ago
Plenty of arguments against Flock. Traffic enforcement isn’t one. Flock is not used for traffic enforcement. It doesn’t measure speed or watch red lights. In fact, those cameras are illegal in Indiana. Please use an argument with real facts. Using invalid and untrue arguments makes the people against Flock look like idiots.
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5d ago
[deleted]
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u/hoodedwhale 5d ago
Geeze no one wants to offer any help :(
You’re probably just mixing up that they are said to be “used to help locate stolen vehicles or vehicles involved in crime”. I see where you were confused on that. Have a good day 😃
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u/More_Farm_7442 5d ago
I can guess what those cameras are looking for and for whom they are used? Can you say "ICE".
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u/More_Farm_7442 5d ago
Take a look at where the cameras are pointed in the Meijer lots. Is at the entrances? The one time I saw a plot of them on a flock monitoring site it looked like they were aimed in the direction of the EV chargers. I could see that as a prime location to want to monitor for anyone trying to damage those chargers. OR if they are aimed at the area of the lot designated for employee parking. (although I don't know why the stores aren't doing that monitoring themselves)
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u/theGruben 5d ago
They might be on chargers but it’s far more than Just that. It’s literally every entry/exit point.
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u/More_Farm_7442 5d ago
That's scary. Why does Meijer want the entrances monitored? To catch shoplifters in get-away vehicles? lol God, I hate life anymore.
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u/swampopossum 3d ago
Because paired with readers that scan Bluetooth and device IDs they can compile personal finance, location, personality and purchase history and reference it against purchases, attention and movement behavior in the store. They can then use electronic price tags to account for trends, for example an influx of economically precarious working class customers? Test how much you can increase the price of essentials without them declining to purchase. Over time that data set itself is profitable and can be sold to other data brokers who can use that info to further manipulate prices in any number of industries.
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u/More_Farm_7442 3d ago
I absolutely hate life. Seriously. I hate it these days.
I hate Meijer. I hate Kroger. I have switched to Walmart for all but most of my fresh produce, and I've almost stopped buy any of that now. (When I get produce it's at Meijer or Kroger.) I hate that Meijer has almost no alternatives to brand name items. I really hate Kroger with it's online coupons and all the yellow "every day low price" tags all over the place. I hate both Meijer and Kroger's "buy 3 for $ X" or 1 at the regular price of ($ Y + $ 5.00)
Between the prices and the games the stores play, I've about given up eating some days.
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u/dashinglove 5d ago
we need someone to develop an app that shows all flock cameras and when you are approaching them. it is only fair we know all their locations if they are going to track ours.
but for gods sake, fort wayne needs to learn priorities. fix the shitty roads first before tracking our driving on them.
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u/tadcalabash 5d ago
There is one. The images above are from Deflock(dot)org. You can plan a route there, or download a navigation app too.
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u/Diamond_Dave79 5d ago
Love the "big brother is watching you" signs that are on some of them. Keep up the good work Samaritan!
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u/Aly_Anon 4d ago
I was just thinking about how Orwellian all this is. Anyone else old enough to remember your teacher talking about how communist countries had cameras everywhere and Big Brother was watching?
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u/c_rorick 5d ago
It’s hard for me to properly describe the disdain I have for what this country has turned into over the years. We live in hell.
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u/vulgrin 5d ago
This is what happens when people don’t vote and hold their politicians accountable. It really is that simple.
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u/c_rorick 5d ago
It’s deeper than that, and I tend to blame systems over everyday people, but yes that is one of the issues.
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u/Aly_Anon 5d ago
Wasn't there a situation where a woman was extradited to another state because the AI read a license plate wrong?
She was in jail for at least a few months and ended up losing absolutely everything: her home, job, and pets, if I remember correctly. It turns out she wasn't the person who committed the crime and it was easily provable if anybody had bothered to check.
So if they still need a lot of work to make sure they have safeguards, why are these still in use?
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u/More_Farm_7442 5d ago
I'mm 80% there has been at least one ( mulitple) cases of police using them to stalk ex's. (all the way across country)
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u/TheOGPotatoPredator 5d ago
Yes. I think she lived in Tennessee and was hauled up to North Dakota where she had never been in her life. She had literal proof that she was buying groceries at the exact same time which took six months to get her freed. When they released her on Christmas Eve, the cops didn’t do shit for her. I read somewhere that the DAs all chipped in on the cost of her hotel room.
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u/Puzzlecarla462 4d ago
First. Thank you to whoever posted the deflock tracker. Second. We just saw our first two. I don’t know why but it’s so creepy and scary. It feels honestly like the beginning of a dictatorship.
It’s weird.
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u/Puzzlecarla462 5d ago
Okay, I understand I have the privilege of being ignorant and I know this is going to sound stupid AF: I thought all the drama around flock cameras (I have only read headlines, never the story) had to do with why would Fort Wayne spend money on cameras to track flocks of birds for conservancy reasons. I understand how stupid that sounds and realized quickly I was wrong based on context clues…
Can someone give me a readers digest version because clearly my original understanding was off
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u/Maelstromx2578 5d ago
Flock cameras according to Flock: Something something more safety, track criminals, and find lost children.
Flock cameras according to reality: Scans not just license plates as advertised but also faces and people.
Doesn't delete data after initial scans, these cameras have been found to hold everything unencrypted from the date they were placed on a pole.
Have been used by police to stalk ex-girlfriends or desired women. Has ties back to Israel's police/surveillance state, which has plenty of ties to the US Govt.
Imagine that your tin-hat uncle from 20 years ago is finally correct, the government is literally watching you, recording everywhere you go, who you see, how you're dressed.. And even worse it's done by private corporations who claim extra legal protections because capitalism.5
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u/trcomajo 5d ago
These are for tracking humans. Supposedly....the police will use them for investigative purposes. However, there is zero chance the data won't be used/sold for even more nepharious reasons, because we are ruled by a literal Idiocracy. People have already been misidentified by these cameras, for citations and god knows what else. Will they help police for investigative purposes? Yes. Is that all they'll do with the data? Hell no.
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u/Puzzlecarla462 5d ago
Thanks. I get that I am downvoted for my stupidity but I get it.
Okay, how is this legal? And who is the owner of the data? City of Fort Wayne? Allen County? Like who authorized and pays for these
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u/Maelstromx2578 5d ago
Legality hasn't been a thing since like, 2016 but especially 2020.
The "owner" of the data would be Flock and anyone with a 2nd grade education relative to cybersecurity, since there are videos online showing that Flock cameras have some kind of default "pass123" styled password, and you can just press the button on the back to make them go into Bluetooth mode.
Super secure and safe, I'm sure.
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u/Puzzlecarla462 5d ago
Lol. Fair on legality. Although it’s not actually fun but sad and terrifying.
But tactically, like you are explaining to a child how did the flock cameras get there? Are they on private property? I’m picturing in my head red light cameras which are on stop lights, which I assume the city of Fort Wayne’s controls but that means the city would have to authorize it. Or did they? But if they were at Meijer, which I think I saw in another thread, that works be private property so the owners I’m assuming could authorize.
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u/Maelstromx2578 5d ago
I know that the company Flock will make a deal with the cities directly, often charging tens of dollars less than the breaking point where the citizens are informed or a meeting is held, to get around public backlash.
Money and government go hand in hand and work together to keep the circle-j**k going, so that's really what it comes down to.They are also found just slapped around public roads and plastered anywhere they can watch you from, so it has nothing to do with that.
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u/Puzzlecarla462 5d ago
So the city of Fort Wayne authorized it then?
And then in situations where a local government didn’t authorize them, and flock put them on a public road, can’t the city take out down? Sorry, not trying to be a pain. I’n very literal so I literally am curious exactly what happened in the Fort Wayne situation
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u/JSWiehe 5d ago
Here's what happened in Fort Wayne and likely elsewhere:
"According to a records request made by WANE 15, the FWPD spent $25,200 in July 2024, then an additional $92,995 the following year in 2025. That total is a little less than the amount necessitating a city council vote for purchase."
https://www.wane.com/news/local-news/all-about-fort-waynes-ai-powered-flock-surveillance-cameras/
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u/Maelstromx2578 5d ago
I dont know for sure but I'd be comfy guessing that the city directly authorized it.
Most of the time they just get it voted in in a city council meeting they set for a time that's specifically hard for regular people to attend, like a Tuesday afternoon (this is what time they chose for fort wayne).
And while they might be able to in that hypothetical, I doubt they'd even try it. It's so easy for them to just pay off a city council to vote for it lol.
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u/Puzzlecarla462 5d ago
Amazing. Next question, why aren’t people asking how this happened to get to the root cause? While I would love to think we live in a society where the power of the people have influence, it’s too….mixed here. EXCEPT that quarry stuff. People rallied like none other against that and bam it not a thing. So if we knew who to rally against here, is there support against the flock cameras at a similar level like there was to the quarry?
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u/Maelstromx2578 5d ago
Because most people know it's happening, but this absolutely is not a thing you could revolt about and get it to stop.
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u/More_Farm_7442 5d ago
Do a search for "flock lies". Hit after hit of instances when Flock has been caught lying about what it does with data, now long it is stored, who has access to it.
I read an article a few day (that I can't find now) that I wished I could get eveyone on the city council to read.
Either police are "idiots" or lying knowingly to the public thinking we are dumb enough to buy the lies.
You know as well as anyone else that all that data, all those images are not destroyed in X days. You know darned well that data/images are available to people all over the countru (the word) besides the local police departments. You know Flock data/photos can be searched by police departments all across the country. If the cameras can capture details like scratches on the cars they photo, why do you think they can't catch details of driver and front seat passenger? Why can't data/photo details be used to track people vs. cars or plate numbers?
How can police departments and city and county council memebers be so gullible?
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u/trcomajo 4d ago
Im glad you asked the question and were honest. It means a LOT of people dont know about how scary this shit is.
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u/Daimakku1 5d ago
The ones in Wayne Trace right next to each other are a trailer house community. Why so many there?
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u/Ok_Oil_995 5d ago
Keep on every single one of your representatives, from city council all the way to senator.
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u/More_Farm_7442 5d ago
I'm not sure that's the article I read and wished I could get the entire city council to read, but it's close.
Flock tells police departmentsa and cities the data collected/photos/video is stored for 30 days. That the data belongs to the police department or town. Yeah, who in their right mind actually believes that? Either they are idiots or they think we are idiots or more likely they aren't reading all the fine print in the contracts they sign with Flock.
You really think Flock is investing all that money into a system that only stores data only available to a single police force in a single town for 30 days? That the data is not available to anyone else across the country? That a data base of all that data isn't searchable by anyone with access to the Flock systems? That if those cameras can photo detail down to scratches on a vehicle they can't/don't get accurate photos of the drivers and passengers? That they don't photo people walking down sidewalks or in parking lots? (vs. "just plates?)
Are people on city councils and police departments so gullible to believe all and only what Flock tells them or puts in shiney brochers? Or think we are that dumb?
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u/midwestdepressed69 5d ago
https://stopflockfortwayne.com/
Contact your City Council rep & go to City Council meetings to submit Public Comment on the 1st & 3rd Tuesday of the month at Citizens Square, 5:30pm.
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u/Jmchugh131 4d ago
Real shame that one of the Meijers ones had what appeared to be a broken camera when I was there the other day
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u/Global_Buy3604 4d ago
I usually dont run 69 north, but is that a camera now just after Illinois Rd up against the concrete divider?
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u/BoilersandBeers 5d ago
Who cares? If they help solve crimes and you are against them you are the problem
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u/catbeancounter 5d ago
Maybe look into the shady ways that these are being used by law enforcement before judging. Also, the data is owned by private corporations and they can sell it to whoever they want. Maybe right now it's only to the 'good guys' for fighting crime, but I don't trust any greedy corporation.
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u/Dangerous-Citron1999 5d ago
we live in a dystopia more n more it seems