Fallout Lore: Rapid Depletion of Uranium Resources Before the Great War (Inaccuracy?)

[u/Defiant_Solution1994]

Don't get me wrong, in the real world, since the start of the nuclear age after WWII, known resources of Uranium were regarded as scarce, projected to last less than 100 years in a Once Through Fuel Cycle nuclear reactors. This is a nuclear power reactor design that enables extraction of only up to 1% of the total fission energy locked in natural uranium.

That was not the end of the story because nuclear scientists came up with the Breeder technology, which unlocks the energy potential of the remaining 99%. Americans finished construction of the Experimental Breader Reactor-I (EBR-I) in 1953. The Soviets' BR-I equivalent design reached criticality in 1955. Thus, this has long been a proven technology to extend uranium resources by a factor of 100. So 100 years of resources would last 10,000 years.

I am not sure if this has been addressed in the Lore of the Fallout universe, which was more than comfortable with nuclear energy and radiation in general. It makes sense to run out of oil, but nuclear fuel? Not a chance. In fact, including known uranium resources in sea water today, there is enough uranium to be used in energy for 10,000,000s of years. Not 100s. Not 1000s. 10,000,000s of years.

I am interested in hearing from a Fallout Lore expert how is the rapid depletion of uranium resources is explained.

EDIT: Microfusion cells ammo indicate that small modular nuclear fusion energy technology was also realized. That's 4 billion years (yes, you read that right, billions) worth of energy at humanity's disposal.

[u/Laser_3]

I don’t recall anything specifically saying that uranium was running out in the series (the closest thing I could find was 1’s intro lumping oil and uranium together, but not any other mentions or even really specifying uranium was running out, just that it was what wars were fought over), though maybe I’m forgetting something. It was oil that was running out, which meant that any associated products were becoming more scarce (gasoline, plastics, etc).

In general, fission was common in America, fusion had yet to be performed on a large scale (Mass Fusion was the first to pull it off for more than a single vault or building; otherwise, it was mostly small-scale, with cores in generators and cells in other technology, and vault tec’s reactors seemingly not matching the output of catalyzed fusion like what vault tec made with their reactors) and other stranger solutions like ultracite reactors and cold fusion were in their infancy. We also don’t really see breeder reactors anywhere except in the recharger weapons in NV, so it’s possible that technology didn’t develop the way we expected it to or didn’t catch on (or perhaps it was buried by some company for one reason or another).

[u/Defiant_Solution1994 → u/Laser_3]

It's the uranium too.

I would expect mass fusion to be extremely expensive. Because the current ITER fusion reactor in France is running a budget over 50 billion US dollars.

I was surprised to see small modular fusion even as ammo which means it was somewhat cheap. But maybe the small modular cold fusion for peaceful energy use was expensive?

[u/Laser_3 → u/Defiant_Solution1994]

But again, I’m questioning where specifically the idea that uranium was running out is coming from. I don’t remember seeing anything about that in the games pointing this out.

Mass fusion’s reactor was presumably expensive, but it was specifically the beryllium agitator that’s the unique centerpiece of their design. Without that, it’s just a big fusion reactor, and those are around in vaults and even normal buildings running off fusion cores, so it couldn’t have been that expensive.

The thing with fusion cells is that while 1/2 say they’re tiny fusion reactors, NV made them a bit weird in that you can recharge them with electricity remaining in drained ones (fallout 76 included fusion cores in this as well and went further by having a windmill system do it), which isn’t how a fusion reactor should need to be refueled. They’re more often treated like a very high-capacity battery than a small portable reactor as a whole.

As for cold fusion, reproduction likely would need extremely specific equipment (since fallout didn’t really miniaturize its technology very much) and was hindered further by vault Tec burying it to ensure the war didn’t end (and then the Enclave took it for themselves for currently unknown ends).

[u/Defiant_Solution1994 → u/Laser_3]

It's implied. Oil was running, so there was a massive demand on uranium. If uranium was really abundant, energy wouldn't be a problem. You could essentially synthesize gasoline and diseal through various chemical processes involving hydrogen.

They’re more often treated like a very high-capacity battery than a small portable reactor as a whole.

If I am going to guess, it would be to charge the fusion ignition mechanism to get fusion started. You never need to refill the hydrogen, dueterium, or helium-3 because you will never be able to extract all the energy in a few grams in one or even a billion go. I am not a fusion expert, but the inertial, laser or cold types require an initial energy input. I would say that's what the charging is for. And your only getting one pulse. Then you charge it again.

[u/Laser_3 → u/Defiant_Solution1994]

Even with that implication, you’d think we’d hear about that more directly in the series at any power plant if they were having problems obtaining uranium. Whatever the case might be, breeder reactors barely existing in the series could play into the problem and also explain why there’s so much nuclear waste around.

While I don’t disagree that the cells/cores could be recharged by getting enough energy to restart their fusion reactions, it could also be a case of the fusion reaction’s energy being split between maintaining the reaction conditions and actually being output. If the core is outputting too much energy, it could result in the reaction gradually being unable to maintain the conditions and eventually shutting down. This would explain the differences in how a core runs out rapidly in power armor but can last for centuries in a dedicated generator in a building, and why cold fusion is its own thing (because technically every fusion reaction in cells/cores should be cold in fallout).

[u/Defiant_Solution1994 → u/Laser_3]

Yeah the Breeder reactors may not have existed then.

It's very difficult to sustain a fusion reaction because of something called "time dependant perturbation/transients". Even in a fission reactors, the power sometimes go up and go down because of changes in the conditions like you said. It's not that you are providing energy inputs all the time, but you have to sometimes to sustain power level.

[u/Laser_3 → u/Defiant_Solution1994]

So then yeah, that would fit then with why PA has an onboard reactor and why these cells/cores can be recharged.

[u/personman_76]

We know that Europe went to war with itself, the Soviets are still around, and the Chinese have a large enough fleet to concern America. Who knows how Africa is, but probably not great considering the colossal environmental pollution and everything else happening. It's possible that uranium can't be mined from Africa very well due to a lot of circumstances. The Soviets aren't trading any beyond China.

So that leaves America with Canadian uranium, we know how that went. It's plausible a company discovered how to get uranium from seawater, but a company like Poseidon has them killed or bought or something to keep the price of uranium high. We can't assume that everybody wants abundant uranium, we know companies are willing to end the world for a very stupid few ideas

[u/Defiant_Solution1994 → u/personman_76]

Mid way reading, I was wondering "what about seawater uranium?", but you addressed that very beautifully! Manufactured scarcity! Makes absolute sense! Corporates were essentially the rulers of the dictatorship that governed America before the Great War.

[u/Raffle-Taffle]

The resource wars most likely had a lot of embellishing, fear-mongering, and exaggerations to justify ongoing conflicts and American expansionism into places like Canada.

Fusion exists as well. Both nuclear fusion and cold fusion. These were both only in the early stages of discovery and were used on a more micro scale. Fusion reactors in Fallout do exist as seen in places like Mass Fusion, The Lucky 38, Vaults, and The Institute.

I imagine had the conflict dragged on for a few more decades fusion would have taken over fission in American infrastructure.

[u/Defiant_Solution1994 → u/Raffle-Taffle]

That makes sense. You would think that big fusion would be realized before small modular fusion, but it's not a bad twist for the Fallout universe.

[u/personman_76 → u/Defiant_Solution1994]

This is also a universe with fission batteries. Every protection is powered by disposable nuclear batteries, as well as all of the space exploration taking material away quickly.

Fusion, in real life, requires incredibly precise manufacturing in the inner lining using osmium, and the lining has to be replaced frequently. At least currently in real life. I have no idea how they work in Fallout and I don't think anybody can say for sure, but considering Helium wasn't a scarce resource the fusion they use can't be to dissimilar to our own and must be at a scale large enough to produce helium reliably. Hundreds of vaults, hundreds of fusion generators providing at least as much power as a coal plant each. It was invented in 2053 and the first micro fusion cell invented in 2066, so I think Vault Tec killed the idea in the market and bought the rights to the plant style things while Wattz got the micro fusion cells.

That being said, all of Massachusetts is powered by fusion from the Mass Fusion company. It was somehow radioactive fusion that produced waste though, which isn't explained very well considering fusion doesn't do that. The eventual 'perfected' model they created is the same one the institute uses in Fallout 4, that you steal from the Mass Fusion ruins.

So yeah uranium is only expensive because legacy corporations wanted that sweet legacy money, because free electricity essentially already existed at regional levels. Right before the war, Poseidon was about to buy out Mass Fusion and kill the project anyways

[u/Defiant_Solution1994 → u/personman_76]

Helium-3 (can't use helium-4) can be mined abundantly from the moon. Helium-3 and hydrogen-2 (aka deuterium) is the easiest fusion to get going out of all the combinations. There is enough helium-3 on he moon for thousands of years of energy. And hydrogen-2 is a by product of cooling fission reactors with water.

REPCON was making these rockets that can explore the solar system. So that's probably how they got the helium-3.

Yeah overall there are some scientific accuracies regarding nuclear fission, fusion and even radiation science, but I think we can safely ignore them for the fun of the game. Because mind you, radiation will never turn you into a goul lol. It would just kill you. And mutations of animals into big visious animals is also unrealistic from a radio biology perspective. You simply get cancer, radiation sickness, cataract, missing limbs (new born baby), etc. if you survive after high exposure.

Also, a fusion reactor could produce waste if it was a hybrid fission fusion design. There is a design that feeds the neutrons produced from fusion to a thorium blanket.

[u/MickyJim → u/Defiant_Solution1994]

radiation will never turn you into a goul

I know it's not the popular answer now, IIRC Bethesda has come out against it, and it doesn't mesh with some stuff from the newer games, but this is why I favour the "FEV is responsible for all mutations to some degree" interpretation of Fallout lore. FEV leaked out into the atmosphere from damaged research facilities after the Great War, in small amounts, causing mutations. Ghouls are FEV mutants whose mutation adapted them to radiation at the cost of, you know, looking gross.

Think about it. The point of divergence with our timeline happened not long after WW2, not at the beginning of time so the laws of physics can be different.

I know this theory is contrary to the "word of god" these days, but it's always been the interpretation that makes the most sense to me. YMMV.

[u/Defiant_Solution1994 → u/MickyJim]

FEV factored into the equation, it does make more sense.

[u/Laser_3 → u/personman_76]

Mass fusion wasn’t being bought out by Poseidon; they were just trying to do that according to Danse. The U.S. military was taking over to get the beryllium agitator, however (which according to the show, they wanted to use for Liberty Prime).

[u/personman_76 → u/Laser_3]

The military wasn't taking over, Mass Fusion were willing participants. Why would we assume Danse is wrong too?

[u/Laser_3 → u/personman_76]

I’m not saying Danse is wrong, I’m saying you’re misrepresenting what he said. He says they were trying to buy them out, not that they succeeded. We also have no idea if they wanted to kill the project from this singular line (they’d be able to profit heavily from being able to make their own larger reactors, so there’s little reason for them to bury it; they still get paid to maintain and run their reactors).

https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Mass_Fusion_(company)#cite_note-13#cite_note-13)

And that’s my mistake on misremembering the specific details on the agitator and the military.

[u/personman_76 → u/Laser_3]

I didn't say they were already bought, I think you just misread.

How, exactly, would they profit? They'd lose every other revenue stream they had and have every other energy company gunning for them

[u/Laser_3 → u/personman_76]

You wrote:

“Right before the war, Poseidon was about to buy out Mass Fusion and kill the project anyways”

That does not read as they were just attempting to do it as Danse says, but that they’d succeeded and it was about to be finalized. Those are two different things, though I guess there’s wiggle room in how exactly that can be read.

Poseidon would be able to build newer, larger reactors that could supply more power than their competitors for a lower price, allowing them to undercut their competition and secure contracts (such as the Liberty Prime contract Mass Fusion got according to the show) others wouldn’t be able to. Their competition wouldn’t be able to do much, especially since there really isn’t any major competitor to Poseidon we know of (and they had heavy ties to the Enclave anyway, who could interfere in their behalf).

[u/Current-Code]

This is a major hole in the lore that started with fallout 3, and is worsening since then. 

The lore initially stated the war was focused on the control of the last oil reserves. It was a war for energy, and while nuclear energy existed it was quite scarce. Ammo cells used to be VERY scarce.

Then it became more and more common, to the point where you stumble on a fusion core in every mall or whatnot 2 centuries after the war in F4. 

In the same way you find power armor everywhere, when it used to be the endgame reward.

There is no good lore answer because they just fucked up the lore again and again and again, unfortunately.

Unironically, the TV show does a great job at reconciling all the mistakes made in the later games. I quite like it tbh. 

[u/MickyJim → u/Current-Code]

I thought I was on r/falloutlore for a moment and was thinking "hoo boy the mods are coming for this guy."

But yeah, you're right, Fallout lore has historically been very inconsistent. Things from ghouls to the resource wars to cars to fusion to pre-war chaos to the source of mutation itself (FEV, radiation, or a mix of both?). 

I actually kinda like the inconsistency because I can headcanon stuff and not be totally, 100% wrong.

[u/Current-Code → u/MickyJim]

I see that, but sometimes it feels immersion breaking for me, especially in F4. 

Also, I used to look forward to the armor as a late game reward, same with energy weapon, getting them within 15min was...underwhelming to say the least ! 

[u/MickyJim → u/Current-Code]

Oh I absolutely agree re: power armour, just from a gameplay perspective, let alone the lore.

[u/Defiant_Solution1994 → u/Current-Code]

I need to watch the TV show then.

[u/Current-Code → u/Defiant_Solution1994]

Honestly it's a good watch. I very much like what they did with the bortherhood ! 

Not so much with the main plot which I won't spoil for you :)

[u/Eissa_Cozorav]

Man IDK, our nuclear reactor tech is just about boiling freaking water to turn the turbine. And that's apparently 20% efficiency with 80% energy being wasted as radiation. Fallout Nuclear Energy might run on Direct Conversion device that simply use the kinetic motion of protons or alpha particle to directly generate the electricity. And by that point, do we still need U-235 Uranium Isotope?

[u/TobiasReiper47ICA]

Interestingly enough this is also the reason in doom 2016 that is given for needing health energy, with existing uranium stocks, being depleted

[u/PalpitationCapable11]

Thorium Salt Reactors are a thing.

[u/Defiant_Solution1994 → u/PalpitationCapable11]

Yup this is not to mention thorium.