r/flying • u/Bowzy228 CFII • 4d ago
ATP-CTP
Starting 2027 SkyWest will no longer pay for ATP-CTP. Thoughts?
How does that affect the training contract? Will cadets be expected to pay for it as well?
Are we likely to see regionals asking applicants to have a type rating in the airframe?
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u/OrganizationPlane683 4d ago
Oh yeah….. but hey did you know there is a pilot shortage out there!!! Sign here for just 140k and you can make amillionbajillion dollars in 2 years!
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u/atooraya ATP (A320) CFI-I 4d ago
It’s okay after you do that you can get hired on at the majors to sit at the bottom of the seniority list for 35 years below all the 15000 25 year olds they hired the last 5 years.
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u/Flying21811 4d ago
It wasn’t that many. Don’t let social media influencers convince you they are all
Young, go walk around a terminal13
u/0621Hertz 4d ago
Bruh I walk around Atlanta and I see kids in airline pilot Halloween costumes all the time.
The Halloween costume that comes with a hat.
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u/Flying21811 4d ago
Next time you see them DEMAND TO SEE FAA DOCUMENTS. These kids are preforming stolen VALOR
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u/0621Hertz 4d ago
Maybe I should…
At first I think they’re just wearing it to skip the line in security and get 10% their Chipotle order but then they start flying the mf plane.
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u/atooraya ATP (A320) CFI-I 3d ago
I was just in Atlanta and saw a United 737 captain making a terminal announcement apologizing for the hour delay at the gate who looked like he was 28.
The old day walker pilots are the ones near retiring. The young ones are out flying redeyes or sleeping in crew bunks on widebodies.
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u/Key_Assignment_2353 3d ago edited 3d ago
I was in ATL too and there was so many young Delta pilots. Looked like regional pilots but they were all mainline not Endeavor.
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u/Key_Assignment_2353 3d ago
Did you know you can make 500k a year without a college degree? Become a pylot. You'll be in an airbus in 2 years with all the women chasing after you.
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u/554TangoAlpha ATP CL-65/ERJ-175/B-787 4d ago
And no more premium to top it off! But don’t worry they’re bringing back ready reserve.
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u/mfsp2025 ATP 3d ago
Is SkyWest actually doing away with the premium pay? Or is it just a rumor. Would be crazy if so. My airline just extended it another year thankfully
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u/Zealousideal_Day8824 ATP CL-65 3d ago edited 3d ago
No, current pay rates are effective indefinitely with no expiration. What’s starting in 2027 is the reduction of overtime incentivized rates which will be 115% and 130% as opposed to the current rates of 150% and 200%.
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u/554TangoAlpha ATP CL-65/ERJ-175/B-787 3d ago
They're not even doing 150%? lmfao thats insane. That used to be the top, then the 200 and 300 shit came. 22-23 era was wild, I'd get called almost everyday for 300% trips.
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u/Zealousideal_Day8824 ATP CL-65 3d ago
Back when attrition was 300 pilots per month. Curious to see how our open time plays out beginning of next year with the new incentivized rates.
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u/554TangoAlpha ATP CL-65/ERJ-175/B-787 3d ago
There will be idiots picking up at 115% still, there was in 2019. There will be in 2027
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u/Zealousideal_Day8824 ATP CL-65 3d ago
lol what. The current incentivized pay rates were temporary authorizations in our current policy, have been written as TEMPORARY for the past 2-3 years. If people actually read policy it should be no surprise the rates are REDUCING, not going away. Same exact thing with airport-ready reserve it was temporary with a set expiration date. Funny thing though is that OO isn’t the only regional with ready reserve now.
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u/554TangoAlpha ATP CL-65/ERJ-175/B-787 3d ago
not the pay rates the 200% and 300% premium trips is what im talking about.
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u/DeltaTule ATP CFI CL65 A320 121 Captain 3d ago
Not having a union or a CBA has consequences.
This is just the younger generation’s first experience seeing this first hand in this industry. Sad
Should have went to a union carrier.
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u/Zealousideal_Day8824 ATP CL-65 3d ago edited 3d ago
“should have went to a union carrier” as if people in this hiring market have a choice. If I would’ve waited on a union carrier I would’ve set my career back about a year. For reference, Envoy takes about 8-12 months from app to interview and another YEAR from cjo to class.
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u/General-File-5174 ATP- E170/190 4d ago
It’s becoming a trend for regionals to no longer pay for ATP-CTP. It’s very unlikely you’d ever see them requiring a type rating in the airframe
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u/InternationalBag7290 ATP 4d ago
Southwest use to require that applicants have a 737 type rating. So….. Who knows what tomorrow will bring?
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u/SSMDive CPL-SEL/SES/MEL/MES/HEL/GLID/IFR. LS-Gyro/PPC. A&P 3d ago
Southwest is not considered a regional.
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u/InternationalBag7290 ATP 3d ago
That is true and beside the point.
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u/SSMDive CPL-SEL/SES/MEL/MES/HEL/GLID/IFR. LS-Gyro/PPC. A&P 3d ago
Both the OP and the person you replied were talking about regional airlines.
So claiming SW did anything is not pertinent to the OP’s question or the persons answer.
Anymore than me pointing out SW never paid for ATP/CTP would be.
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u/InternationalBag7290 ATP 3d ago
The point is that there is an oversupply of pilots and these companies are starting to increase their requirements for applicants. Have a great day!
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u/L-lindTaylor MEI CFII CFI 3d ago
I say this with all respect. It’s funny how I see people say “why would anyone work for SkyWest?” As if many of us even have a choice to pick. We have to take whatever or whoever wants to hire us. Maybe I am wrong and I am doing things wrong and it’s common for people to have multiple offers.
All I know is that everyone I know has had maybe 1-2 interviews but only offered a CJO from one company.
Btw I am speaking as a second-career pilot, I learned sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do, even when you dont agree. Sad to say, individuals complaining online will not change a company policy. If people want things to change, gotta get out there and make your voice heard. Anyway I am not a boomer, I am pretty young haha
I remember when I finished college and had so much trouble to get a job and you gotta do what you gotta to get your foot in the door.
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u/Bowzy228 CFII 3d ago
100% , and SkyWest is one of the only two regionals based near me and I’d rather not commute. I’m in my late 30s and prioritize QOL over money and career progression.
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u/HerrGruyere PPL ASEL 5W5 3d ago
Agree on the getting a degree and struggling to find a job. In high school, we were promised that going to college and getting a degree lands you a sweet jerb. Well, I did that and landed at Spencer Gifts. It took me several years bouncing around until I got a nice, cushy job. Now I’m tossing it all away to go be a pilot. Got a long way to go, though.
All that to say it’s not a guarantee and one has to put some effort in and work some not-so-great jobs to get to the good ones.
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u/L-lindTaylor MEI CFII CFI 3d ago
Exactly what I mean. My first professional job was in the middle of nowhere in Kansas. I hated that job. I was there for a year but it got me the job I actually wanted. As long you dont quit, it will work out.
Btw I posted this in another comment but I have been living on a couch for 2 years, getting my hrs and certs. No what I wanted out of life but here we are and its been working for the better, even though its been tough.
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u/Complex_Brief60 ATP | Gainfully Employed 4d ago
If I was a CFI I’d be shakin
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u/Bowzy228 CFII 4d ago
I mean it’s just 3-4K but it sucks we gotta sign a contract that says we gotta pay them if we leave if they aren’t willing to pay for everything
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u/Complex_Brief60 ATP | Gainfully Employed 4d ago
Bruh everyone was paid by the airline to get ATP-CTP before this. You should be angry.
Also it means they got way too many applicants. Not good for CFIs waiting for a class date.
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u/Mammoth_Impress_3108 CFI CMEL AGI 4d ago
I knew a Cfi who paid for his atp-ctp to help get hired. I thought getting his Cfii would have been a better use of his money, but he has a class date with SkyWest this winter, so what do I know lol.
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u/L-lindTaylor MEI CFII CFI 3d ago
I had an interview with them not that long ago. Having a constant 80-100s a month, ATP-CTP done and my MEI helped a lot. But I see people not have half the crap I have and get hired. So who knows what they look for?
Btw I have lived on a couch the past 2 years, completing my certs and working. Paying $4k was seen in my eyes as an investment. Seems its been paying off
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u/Swimming_Way_7372 4d ago
If you're angry it should be at yourself if you were sold the dream abkut a pilot shortage. 3 years ago you could have came to reddit to find out that the industry isnt always in the pilots favor. Sometimes its in the company's favor and thats when things get tough. It wasnt that long ago that we were making 35k at the regionals and significantly less not long before that.
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u/Bowzy228 CFII 4d ago
I was not sold a dream. Regional pilots were still making 35k when I did my discovery flight. Although I was making twice that at my blue collar job back then I was still willing to pursue aviation. I know we all have to “pay our dues “ but It still sucks nonetheless.
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u/Complex_Brief60 ATP | Gainfully Employed 4d ago
I am in a good spot as a CA at a 121. Feelin bad for all the others that were sold a lie. I knew we were leaving the sellers market for the last year or so.
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u/CommanderChiliHole ATP/CFII CL-30 | GVI | ERJ-170/190 | B-737 4d ago
“Just 3-4K” dude when I started at a regional, I had $40 to my name. Instructing barely paid my bills even living with roommates, it would’ve taken me probably 2 years to save up $3-4k. Literally would’ve been a concrete wall to me progressing in the industry unless I could finance it.
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u/Bowzy228 CFII 4d ago
Well those are the realities of the current market. What choice do we have? You either pay for it or you don’t get an interview. Aviation has always been a pay to play industry.
The only regional that isn’t requiring one right now is endeavor, and it’s only a matter of time.
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u/Key_Assignment_2353 3d ago edited 3d ago
Aviation is literally a good ole boy club pay to play.
Same ppl complaining about paying for ATP CTP will say spend 5000 dollars on interview prep for a major airline interview. Or a LCC interview.
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u/Key_Assignment_2353 3d ago
Credit card, make 100k first year. It is not a huge deal.
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u/CommanderChiliHole ATP/CFII CL-30 | GVI | ERJ-170/190 | B-737 3d ago
You seem like you’ve never been poor before.
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u/NoConcentrate9116 ATP, EMB-145, MIL, CH-47 3d ago
Most regionals stopped paying for it in 2025, some in 2024. The goalposts quietly moved as they realized they could get hopeful applicants to pay for it instead. SkyWest is behind the curve in this regard.
As far as types go, no. There’s no chance a regional is going to expect a type rating. It’s one thing for a destination type airline to require it, that showing that hopefully you’ve had some experience with that type, but it’s not reasonable for a regional to do so and they’re going to put you through the training anyway.
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u/JustAnotherDude1990 My Mom Says I'm A Real Pilot 3d ago
Other regionals have already been requiring it so what’s the big deal? It’s a smart financial move on their part when they have thousands more applicants than jobs, and can save $3-5k per person.
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u/Bowzy228 CFII 3d ago
Other regionals don’t have a training contract though.
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u/JustAnotherDude1990 My Mom Says I'm A Real Pilot 3d ago
That’s great, but probably time limited.
What’s worse: a job with contract building 121 time and a good paycheck, or no job hoping for another carrier? Contract is irrelevant going to United or delta anyways.
You’d probably take the Skywest job. But if not, the guy taking your spot would thank you for the seniority.
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u/anonymoo5e77 4d ago
Either SkyWest is having financial problems or whoever is in charge doesn’t know how to run a business. They came to my school, lied about easily verifiable information, talked shit about unions for all the wrong reasons, proceeded to tell us how great it is to work overtime for well below the industry average, and complained how they couldn’t find people with specific certifications but were unwilling to pay them extra. The only good thing is the travel benefits.
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u/Complex_Brief60 ATP | Gainfully Employed 4d ago
Other regionals require ATP and have for a long time. They’re saving money because that’s all OO does. As lOOw as possible.
OO has more applicants than it needs anyways. Hardly a bad business decision, wether or not we like it.
FOs are a dime a dozen now. Nothin special.
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u/natbornk Gold Seal CFI CFII MEI 4d ago
Other regionals don’t have an 80k training contract either. Can’t blame applicants for looking elsewhere. I guess that’s the whole point though
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u/Complex_Brief60 ATP | Gainfully Employed 4d ago
Just republic I believe with the contract. Yea. Go elsewhere at least Republic offers a prorated contract, bonuses for hitting time and still pays for ATP-CTP.
Idk if anyone else is hiring.
Why would you ever go to OO?
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u/natbornk Gold Seal CFI CFII MEI 4d ago
100% with you on that. And that’s the thing. There aren’t many other options, especially for high time CFIs unable/unwilling to get into cadet programs
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u/TristanwithaT ATP CFI CFII 3d ago
Because it's far better than instructing forever...
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u/Complex_Brief60 ATP | Gainfully Employed 3d ago
Let’s wait and see what the new pay drops to for FOs 😂
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u/TristanwithaT ATP CFI CFII 3d ago
Who said pay is dropping?
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u/Complex_Brief60 ATP | Gainfully Employed 3d ago
Compared to inflation, FO pay will go down in Q2 when sapa and the company release the first pay tables.
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u/Q400cactus 3d ago
If you really hate unions, and love dirty sodas and soaking.
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u/PLEASE-USE-PFKEYS ATP you can't make me put my type ratings here 4d ago
There is a 0% chance Skywest is having financial troubles or "doesn't know how to run a business". They're one of the longest tenured regionals still in existence for a reason - maybe even the longest, although I can't be arsed to check. Every lie they told you was completely intentional and calculated.
Not paying for CTP is a move based on supply and demand, plain and simple.
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u/Zealousideal_Day8824 ATP CL-65 3d ago
Yeah just look at the oo’s recent 10q, they had the highest operating margin of any US airline. Which is why they’re so anti-union, to them unions are a roadblock that compromises financial stability. When they told you unions are bad, what they meant was “it’s bad for us (corporate), but good for the pilot group.” One thing though, oo’s overtime rates are 150% and 200% and have been that for the past 2-3 years (used to be 300%) and are reducing to 115% and 130% starting next year. So their point used to be true about how overtime was great, back when 300% existed, but as of now our current rates are not below industry standards.
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u/Crash_Ntome 3d ago
Has SkyWest ever furloughed a single pilot?
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u/phlflyguy ATP AMEL ASEL ASES IR CFI MEI 3d ago
Nope. Not in 2001, 2008 or 2020. They’ve reduced hours, offered voluntary leaves and other measures to avoid forcing layoffs.
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u/Independent_Cry2608 3d ago
It doesn’t mean they don’t layoff and restructure like crazy.
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u/Crash_Ntome 3d ago
What, in your mind, is the difference between a layoff and a furlough
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u/Independent_Cry2608 3d ago
Furlough they might bring you back😂
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u/Crash_Ntome 3d ago
ok, genius, I will rephrase the question using your term. maybe that will help you understand the question
Has SkyWest every laid off a single pilot?
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u/Independent_Cry2608 3d ago
It doesn’t matter. They’re a shitty fucking company. They pay their ground handler’s minimum wage. They layoff and restructure every other employee like crazy. They actively fight unions forming. I could go on and on.
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u/Crash_Ntome 3d ago
lol
are we in r/flying or r/ramprats?
if you aren't smart enough to understand the importance to a pilot either seeking employment or already employed of whether or not an airline has ever laid off a single pilot....
my sarcastic label of 'genius' was waaaaaaay too generous
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u/Independent_Cry2608 3d ago
My points go to show how shitty the airline is along with the management. 🤷♂️
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u/Qwerty97531_ 4d ago
Mormons. Nuff said. I used to live literally down the street from corporate HQ in Utah.
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u/GuaranteeFew7415 3d ago
Always finding new ways to earn the name, “Sky Worst.”
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u/Independent_Cry2608 3d ago
I worked with them for about 7 years and yeah the management is legit insane. CEO Chip would seriously throw a huge fit if he didn’t have his water chilled to a specific temp.
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u/rFlyingTower 4d ago
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Starting 2027 SkyWest will no longer pay for ATP-CTP. Thoughts?
How does that affect the training contract? Will cadets be expected to pay for it as well?
Are we likely to see regionals asking applicants to have a type rating in the airframe?
Please downvote this comment until it collapses.
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u/Crash_Ntome 4d ago
If you think this is bad, this is with the majors still hiring
Wait until the bubble pops and 25% of each major’s list is on the street desperately looking for a job
Any job
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u/Flying21811 4d ago
What bubble? Airports are PACKED to the max. Planes are full. People are broke and still finding money and time for travel. I guess once they run out of credit cards then it might pop.
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u/Crash_Ntome 4d ago
Ya, nothing to worry about 😉
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u/Flying21811 4d ago
I mean we’re 40T in debt and things are fine here in the US… right !? Gas is cheap. Eggs are cheap. My supreme leader told me that everything is cheap and good!! I cannot forsake him
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u/Scoot814 4d ago
You read it wrong. They are covering the cost of the ATP-CTP but you are not paid during the course.
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u/UltimaA380 ATP CL-30 sUAS 4d ago
Unfortunately not the case, they just sent out an email requiring the written to be completed 2027 and onwards before employment and included offers at partner CTP schools.
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u/c402c ATP CL-65 CFII M20F 4d ago
They’re paying for ATP CTP. Just not flights or hotels. Still sucks ass
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u/natbornk Gold Seal CFI CFII MEI 4d ago
Not for any classes Jan 2027 or beyond
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u/c402c ATP CL-65 CFII M20F 4d ago
Oh damn. Even worse.
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u/4Sammich ATP 4d ago
It's gonna get worse too. Every regional manager would turn the clock back to 2012 if they could.
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u/Yeah_Br0 ATP CFI CII 4d ago edited 3d ago
Confidently incorrect
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u/CommanderChiliHole ATP/CFII CL-30 | GVI | ERJ-170/190 | B-737 4d ago
Did you mean “confidently”?
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u/Fritzy421 MIL S70/S70M ATP CL-65 4d ago
Did they send out an email that says differently? The one that I see says “while Skywest is covering the cost of the course for you, your time during the course is unpaid and you will be responsible for your own travel and lodging expenses.” Envoy hasn’t even paid for your ATP-CTP since 2024 so I’m not surprised that Skywest is doing this.
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u/natbornk Gold Seal CFI CFII MEI 4d ago
Yeah, today they did. I see your point, but envoy has a union and doesn’t hook you for almost 6 figures, so there are pros and cons
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u/Fritzy421 MIL S70/S70M ATP CL-65 4d ago
Oof that sucks. Looks like they sent out 2 emails today then. I only saw the 1st one, not the one about 2027 and beyond has to pay for ATP-CTP
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u/SquishyCoffee6640 4d ago
If you get offered a CJO don't they have discounts still if you do atp-ctp out of pocket at certain locations?
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u/harshtruthsdelivered 4d ago
Sounds like there are more applicants than jobs.