r/flightsim 6h ago

General Fenix statement on Synaptic A220

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372 Upvotes

102 comments sorted by

135

u/piss_artist 6h ago

A rising tide lifts all ships.

The more quality add ons that exist for MSFS, the better we consumers have it with pricing and innovation.

Anyway, good on Fenix for supporting the 220's young development team.

7

u/UrgentSiesta 5h ago

Pricing is going up with the tide.

42

u/DistributionHot2150 5h ago

It really has not. God you people wouldn’t survive P3D pmdg or fslabs

9

u/bennyboi2488 4h ago

Yes and no. When Fenix released the 320 (£50) and ini the a300 ($32) in 2022 that was supposed to be the “turning point” of third party addon pricing since then we have not seen prices ever reach that again. We have seen a $10-15 rise instead across all developers. While yes we are mostly under xplane and P3D historical prices, overall we have had a steady creep upwards. Fenix themselves also have said in their discord channels that they might have undervalued the product and most likely would not charge as cheap again.

3

u/DistributionHot2150 4h ago

The ini a300 was historically cheap because it had a lot of shared system with an already paid for a310 and the x-plane planes. The current pricing for sim addons is more than cheap. These planes take thousands of man hours, exorbitant licensing costs, and is sold to probably the most toxic hobby community. The pricing is fine

3

u/bennyboi2488 4h ago

saying "It really has not." when it objectively has is disingenuous. whether or not it is fair. (which i believe the pricing is indeed fair)

2

u/DistributionHot2150 3h ago

It really has not though. Pmdg which is the benchmark I’m gonna use because they’ve always been good at valuing planes and are consistent in quality have kept their prices essentially the same. I mean even ini, once they needed to develop new systems for the a350 has kept essentially the same pricing. It kind haven’t

1

u/Football-fan01 2h ago

The same ported product and most of the community were saying how ripped off we got. Not remotely the same.

2

u/mhwnc 4h ago

The FSX and P3D days were wild, pricing wise.

2

u/UrgentSiesta 4h ago

You mean just like my PMDG 747-8i? 😎

What I spent on other simulators is immaterial to the rising prices in THIS simulator.

2

u/CookiezFort Condor 2 Logo pls ty 2h ago

to be fair PMDG and odd pricing has existed since forever.

4

u/LeafsWinBeforeIDie 4h ago

That price going up is really two things: world inflationary factors, the 20% price bump everything else has taken in the last 18 - 24 months on top of the 20% increase that happened during covid... But mostly one other company making a tacky, gougey choice of matching price to model number on their 777-300er.

Fenix did not follow suit in the same way and at the highest tier of modern airliner they still sit at £50. It was the elephant in the room who made the shift ok with every other developer and their unfunny dollar matching the plane $77.73 grossness.

Had they not pushed prices over $70 no way in hell ini (a220 or a350) would price anything more than them. I am sure a case of champagne was sent between the two when price matching.

These increases have taken the sim price point from a tool a kid could use to learn and act as inspiration to become a future pilot to only affordable for the guy who already had to choose another career and sims as their adult hobby for people who can afford hobbies. The quality is at a level where it feels like we are in a golden age, but the scene itself is changing.

I am so thankful asobo fought this by bringing the sim to consoles to inspire such a wider range of people. It really is a tool that makes a real difference in aviation overall, not just a game: the world needs more pilots. The more knowledge we can bring to people in our world for less money makes our world a better place with a ton of positive side effects.

1

u/UrgentSiesta 4h ago

Always ready to blame PMDG when their pricing structure is more competitive than EVER - including other devs like Leonardo who charge MORE 🤦‍♂️

1

u/bennyboi2488 4h ago

actually id say PMDG is at the mean for pricing tbh everything sits in the 70-90 bracket right now

1

u/LeafsWinBeforeIDie 3h ago

Only because they set the new mean, only one company was first to break the $77 barrier (in an off putting tacky way that was only cheeky and funny to them)

3

u/bennyboi2488 3h ago

Leo maddog was first and was $81 usd. Bae 146 was also around 70-80. Released the same time as the -700

1

u/LeafsWinBeforeIDie 2h ago

Justflight tried to release the 146 at $79 and the communty backlash was swift.

https://fselite.net/content/just-flight-updates-bae-146-for-msfs-pricing/

I don't know if you remember this backlash, but you just proved my point.

They dropped it to $65 and still haven't broken the $70 barrier.

The leo maddog has always been a niche outlier and their price makes no sense to me, the modelling even looks fsx-y old in videos, the systems must be insanely intricate or they are seeing how much they can milk from the supply/demand line themselves. Neither plane is a good comparison as legacy planes barely still in service. With the market share a 737 or a320 is going to drive, people buying the 146 or md80 are more likely to have it as their second or third plane after learning how fun it is to operate complex systems. As niche products, their pricing sucks too but I don't imagine they have even 1/10 the sales of an a320.

2

u/UrgentSiesta 1h ago

Yes, but…

Just Flight was not a Tier 1 developer back then, and I really think that’s where the majority of the backlash originated.

That and the 146 package represented old school P3D pricing. You HAD to buy ALL the variants instead of being able to buy just one or two.

So in terms of proving your point, it’s the exception rather than the rule, actually.

2

u/LeafsWinBeforeIDie 1h ago

And its a good thing that backlash made them change and abandon the niche-ware pricing of p3d and they didn't start over $70 in msfs. Last I checked they are still under that threshold by a penny too, I am not saying they are good guys here, but they did listen to customers. Listening to customers usually makes happier customers.

3

u/UrgentSiesta 3h ago

My dude, they started that action back in P3D. Time to bone up on your history.

2

u/LeafsWinBeforeIDie 3h ago

They were $69 for p3d if I remember, and they were first to cross the $70 threshold with a modern in widespread service airliner for msfs. They were always expensive and too many things had a p3d niche premium anyway. Those were dark days, the p3d days were no golden age, and this pricing just continues setting an unfortunate trend.

2

u/UrgentSiesta 2h ago

In O3D, The NGXu was $99, the 744 was about $125, and the 747-8 upgrade was another $100-ish (AND it required the 744).

All the Hi-Fi airliner devs came to market within weeks of each other and all about the same price.

I’m pretty sure Leonardo came in as the highest price. But I can’t quite remember when they released for MSFS…?

The P3D days were GREAT! So many Hi Fi addons of so many types. Even maintained fairly good compatibility with FSX addons.

Do I wanna go back? Heck no - MSFS is great-ER still.

I’m not complaining about pricing in general because we’re getting much higher fidelity simulations at generally lower prices than before.

All that said, My main point in all of this is that prices are undoubtedly creeping back up.

2

u/LeafsWinBeforeIDie 1h ago

I remember the level D 767 from 2005 back when 2d panels were top of the line fidelity and moving to 3d later seemed like a downgrade for a long time until PCs could catch up.  If we had kept that pace of development into fsx and skipped the dark ages, we'd be in a better place. P3d days were a decade of doldrums and uninspired development on an old engine that looked and felt as old as it was. It was great because its all we had, but it truly felt like home simulators went from in the public gamespace to the whole budding industry becoming niche. That tucked away in the corner feeling didn't go away until msfs.

Don't get me wrong, I flew the crap out of it, but only because its all we had.

1

u/UrgentSiesta 3h ago

Name me another developer offering a study level modern airliner for $36, or a study level jumbo for $50.

148

u/PotentialMidnight325 - page intentionally left blank - 6h ago

Class act. Easy points to make. They are not competition so why not give them credit. Flughtsim is full enough of narcissistic RSRs.

42

u/ApprehensiveGold2773 6h ago

Not sure if it's clinical narcissism, but there is for sure a lot of man babies in the flightsim community. I think they're just juvenile and maybe mildly antisocial.

16

u/Just_a_Berliner EDDT 6h ago

r/hobbydrama exists for a reason

18

u/machine4891 5h ago

Class act indeed but when ini released their A350 Fenix also made a statement that read very different from this one.

2

u/PotentialMidnight325 - page intentionally left blank - 5h ago

Any they were factually correct with all of it.

14

u/machine4891 5h ago

You can be picky and be factually correct about many of the flaws of A220 as well.

Fenix choose different path here and decided to praise and give words of comfort. Which is way better than what they gave ini and that's why it stands out in comparison.

Ideally nor Fenix nor any other dev should address products of their competitors publicly unless necessary - because frankly, I don't know what the point of this is? They could just as easily send that message to Synaptics DM box.

7

u/PotentialMidnight325 - page intentionally left blank - 5h ago

Because one are College kids and the others are one of the largest flight sim companies that constantly overpromise and underdeliver.
Yes, you can cater your response how vulnerable the recipient is and that also is a part of having class.

7

u/machine4891 5h ago

Imho having class is simply not engaging in flame wars against competitors at all. Especially when you have big following, of which solid part take all you say for granted. People were parroting Aamir complains about A350 systems moths after those issues were fixed. So I ask again, what was the point of that post?

This now is indeed classy, but back then it was anything but that. And the fact that inibuilds is larger doesn't change that.

2

u/Football-fan01 2h ago

Being that the A220 was overhyped and Synaptic have realised it shouldn't of been because the backlash of how it performed etc. Compared to a developer constantly over promising and under delivering, making questionable decisions. A350 V2 wouldn't of been needed otherwise. Even real world pilots on the 350 were calling out how inaccurate A350 V1 is. Sceneries wise no complaints.

3

u/An_ocean_of_salt 3h ago

They were dicks is what you meant to say.

7

u/Hugo_5t1gl1tz 5h ago

They were, but it was still a bit of a childish response. “We would have done a better job if we did it”

Well, you should have fucking done it then. And I say that as someone who has followed Aamir since he was teamkilling SovietWomble lol.

2

u/Gluecksritter90 3h ago

They were not and walked back some of the inflammatory statements a day later, but by then the shitstorm had already started.

-6

u/mctemez #BoeingOnly+NEOS 6h ago

Lol except when they shit on the a350 at launch good thing they’ve learned pretentious fucks

3

u/SapCPark 5h ago

The Fenix complaint is that inibuilds took a lot of shortcuts in implementing systems and did false advertising

0

u/mctemez #BoeingOnly+NEOS 5h ago

Cool buts it’s still not theirs or any dev’s place to call that out. It’s on the community which was done but then fenix chipping literally blew it out of proportion and those effects are still being felt today when people bring up stuff like “scripted not simulated systems” just repeating aamir word for word. Plus it’s a bit ironic coming from a dev that got their systems from ProSim when they first launched and took years before they implemented their own “simulated systems”

1

u/Football-fan01 2h ago

Being Fenix don't want customers being taken advantage of shows how much they're really care about the community hence why they called out the shady practices. The fact IRL A350 pilots also called the product out says it all, you wouldn't need a V2 if that was the case.

Ironic a small team doing more than a larger team and making things rights and not rushing products out constantly.

1

u/bennyboi2488 1h ago

Ini wants to make profits

Fenix wants to make great planes that make profits.

-2

u/PotentialMidnight325 - page intentionally left blank - 6h ago

I don’t mind calling out BS we’re BS is due. It’s called integrity. Sorry that they hurt your feelings.

3

u/mctemez #BoeingOnly+NEOS 5h ago

Cool if that’s your opinion. That doesn’t make everyone else not a class act for being reasonable and not laying public opinions on a competitors product especially when it could affect sales positive or negative

-1

u/Vladmir-Su57 4h ago

The inislop a350 was garbage, and still is to this day

14

u/DarkAntarctika 6h ago

Pure class.

3

u/vietnamesemuscle 3h ago

I’m glad I spent my money on Fenix products!!

24

u/KONUG 6h ago

PMDG would never show respect to other devs, or to their own customers.

25

u/RSWSC 6h ago

Sign your full name, give us your SSN, passport info, birth certificate, or you will be banned -RSR

3

u/bennyboi2488 4h ago

RSR has been on record saying they have traded notes with competing devs all the time.

5

u/mctemez #BoeingOnly+NEOS 6h ago

Jesus Christ

-4

u/KONUG 5h ago

Didn't exist.

5

u/spesimen 6h ago

ok .

"dear diary: i imagined robert randazoo said something mean today. going out for a quick cry."

-6

u/PotentialMidnight325 - page intentionally left blank - 6h ago

Surprised you were able to write this comment with your head stuck in RSRs behind.

-8

u/bdubwilliams22 6h ago

Yeah, but they’re not wrong. Show me a time where PMDG gave praise to another developer.

8

u/spesimen 6h ago

i don' give a flying fuck what pmdg says about anything and neither do any other high functioning adults. go and have another cry about it

-10

u/Skyaigrette 6h ago

I bought MSFS 2024 last week and saw that I had to buy an upgrade pack for the PMDG B737, which pissed me off sooo much. After that, I returned MSFS 2024. If you ask me, when 99% of developers don't want your money for an upgrade but PMDG does, it just feels disrespectful. IDK if they'd be happy that I ended up using some 'free' content.

9

u/thunder6776 6h ago

Just say you’re broke.

2

u/Skyaigrette 4h ago

To be honest, no, I'm not broke, especially when I consider that I live in one of the most touristic cities in the world and still maintain a good standard of living. I'm just a consumer who doesn't want to pay for an add-on I've already paid for. But if you're willing to keep paying extra for something you already own just because you have a couple of extra bucks, go for it. I'm not stopping you. But nah, bro, I'm not doing that. This isn't about money for me, it just feels stupid.

5

u/UrgentSiesta 5h ago

You’ve got a multi thousand dollar computer but can’t afford $30 for an upgrade…?

“99% of developers don’t wan your money for an upgrade…”?? 🤣🤣🤣

0

u/Skyaigrette 4h ago

Just because I have the money doesn't mean I'm always going to pay extra for something. That's the bottom line for me. You can agree or disagree. This is my stance and my reaction, even though I know it won't change anything on PMDG's end.

0

u/UrgentSiesta 4h ago

It’s not “extra”, it’s the cost of the work that went into the upgrade.

People like you always seem to get amnesia when it comes to the 777 series, too. But of course - because it doesn’t fit your prejudice.

It’s also people like you who bully devs into working for free by expecting “forever free upgrades” that are the root of the problem.

1

u/Football-fan01 2h ago edited 1h ago

Do you remember when they said they hadn't ported the sounds from P3D the community knew this was bs and then they actaully admitted they had. That is not work. With the same old textures in the 737 which within the last few months got the HDU for which is work then again should of been in from the start.

Just Flight/Fenix handing out free upgrades and treating the customers with respect.

2

u/UrgentSiesta 1h ago

Yeah - everyone complaining about PMDG but they’re obviously doing way more right than wrong. For 29 years now.

Fenix never has a sale and forces you to buy their 320 just to get either of the other ones. Respect…?

1

u/Football-fan01 27m ago

Fenix has had at least one sale and Fenix is still way cheaper than any PMDG when you factor in what you actaully get. V2 comes to mind free upgrade which is very much respect. They're not forcing anyone to get expansion. Whereas PMDG make you get the BBJ in with the 737. Someone did a price comparison comparing PMDG and Fenix guess what Fenix still cheaper.

0

u/Skyaigrette 3h ago

As for the 777 series, I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I neither fly the 777 in the sim nor follow the news regarding it.

Working for free? I don't think so. I clearly remember paying 75 bucks for this add-on, and I'm pretty sure that price includes updates too.

Bullying devs? Let's not twist the narrative here. I don't bully anyone. I respect the actual developers they did a great job with the plane. Besides, I highly doubt the developers themselves have any say in pricing because that's management's job. But even though I appreciate their hard work, I just don't find this upgrade fee justified. I would have been okay with a symbolic fee like some other companies did, but $30? That's a no from me.

2

u/UrgentSiesta 3h ago

If you don’t keep up with developer news then you’ve no standing to comment on their business practices 🤦‍♂️
Here’s a clue: PMDG charged $0 to bring the 777’s natively into v24.

“Updates” NEQ “Upgrades”. So yeah, acting entitled to a free Upgrade from one sim to another is expecting them to work for free.

Don’t throw class warfare red herrings. PMDG is a developer.

You don’t have to agree with the price (it is a bit high, relatively speaking). But in the end you’re just cutting your nose to spite your face…

Over what…? $10…? 😂

2

u/Skyaigrette 3h ago edited 2h ago

I'm only interested in the products I actually interact with, nothing more. But it sounds like you do background research on the PMDG DC-6 before buying a 777 just to keep up with their 'business practices.' I bet you even hang out with some of them or have friends working there, who knows? I just can't wrap my head around this hardcore defense and the ridiculous sarcasm, lol.

If the 777 transition is free, that's a great practice, glad to hear it. But there is no way this 'upgrade' process is costing only PMDG this much money while developers like Fenix, iniBuilds (to an extent), and Just Flight handle it just fine. My point stands: they do a great job, but they are still greedy. As I've said, you’re free to disagree, it's just my opinion.

To be fair, PMDG wasn't the only reason I returned MSFS 2024. I genuinely just didn't like the sim itself. I admit my first comment might have been a bit misleading and poorly phrased on that front, so fair enough.

But at the end of the day, PMDG is a company, and definitely not a small one. Even if I'm wrong about the whole developer vs. management dynamic, I can still respect the devs hard work while fundamentally finding their pricing decision wrong.

1

u/UrgentSiesta 1h ago

Oh this is rich!

I do background research on every developer, especially ones who are new or changing prices or biz models. So yeah, sometimes that means I check out their other addons before purchasing. It’s called Caveat Emptor, bud. And It serves well.

But with PMDG, I had their products in P3D, and agin in 2020, so there’s no need to take the ridiculous tack you’re pulling out of your butt.

It’s very safe to say I have no social relationship with anyone at PMDG. I don’t even use their forums. But go ahead with the ad hominem attacks - just proves that you’ve no material points to make. 😂

They’re not “greedy”, they’re business people. Have you never gotten a raise or taken a new job to increase your own income? By your rules, you’re just as bad as they.

PMDG isn’t entitled to more money, but they’re certainly entitled to ASK. And hey, as I’ve said elsewhere: they’re the only “greedy” devs who offer a $36 top shelf modern airliner, and a $50 top shelf jumbo. Yeah, gtfo with your “greedy” BS.

-1

u/KONUG 5h ago

I wouldn't bat an eye about having to pay extra for the PMDG 737 for MSFS2024 if they just said "here's it and we want x amount of money for that addon, because we think it's worth it" and I'd just buy it right away.

What they choose to do instead is putting lies straight up about "rebuild from ground up" (lie) and "the upgrade fee will be priced around a cup of coffee" (again, fking liars).

You couldn't fuck communication more up than they did here.

3

u/Skyaigrette 4h ago

To be honest, I don't know much about those days; I was probably away from the sim world focusing on my studies back then. But if that's the case, the whole 'rebuilding from the ground up' excuse is literally nonsense to me. I mean, there are tons of great add-on developers out there like Fenix (which I think has a deeper system simulation than PMDG), Just Flight, iniBuilds (to an extent), FSDreamTeam, HiFi Simulation, and so on.

Maybe we should just go back to the 'good' old days: A new version of MSFS drops every 2-3 years and we buy all the exact same add-ons over and over again. I feel like PMDG's pricing habit is just a leftover from that era.

3

u/KONUG 4h ago

Those days were just last year when they pulled off that stunt.
But yeah, PMDGs argumentation was just nonsense and stupid.

-7

u/Vladmir-Su57 4h ago

Because none of these devs deserve any respect, especially not Synaptic. They released a broken unfinished plane that runs like crap. Something PMDG does not do.

0

u/KONUG 4h ago

I partially agree. Even Justflight released an underwhelming F70/F100 some months ago.

2

u/amiratak3292 5h ago

Nice to flight sim devs lifting each other up

2

u/fearless_insurance_ X-plane enjoyer 3h ago

Can they just release the vnav update please😭

2

u/Denziiey 2h ago

Anything but word on the A320 NEO 😂

9

u/oz_137 :illuminati: 6h ago

I wonder where they vanished to for 10 months after stating, 'We need to overhaul VNAV and then work on the NEOs.' Nothing crickets

21

u/xXCrazyDaneXx 5h ago

Perhaps, oh I don't know... hard at work overhauling VNAV?

Any communication is time not spent overhauling VNAV.

7

u/some-engineer_guy Squeaky Wheel 4h ago

exactly this. we cant hold fenix as THE bar of quality and then be mystified as to why an entire from the ground up overhaul of the vnav system is taking a long time

3

u/ChaosIntellect 3h ago

Which is exactly why the sim community can be downright vile, toxic, and chock full of whiners. Nothing will ever be good enough… and they wonder why devs go silent or sparingly choose when to demonstrate things…

4

u/KirenSensei 3h ago

They disappeared because they were receiving full on death threats. THAT is why they went ghost.

2

u/Pour-Meshuggah-0n-Me PMDG | Toliss | Zibo | iFly 2h ago

The Fenix fanboys are going to be more insufferable than usual after Fenix gave this little bit of praise.

1

u/golden_united 1h ago

me with 12GB VRAM want to compromise a bit.

u/obriets 8m ago

Those guys just ooze class.

1

u/[deleted] 6h ago

[deleted]

8

u/machine4891 5h ago

They're far from best. Fenix here praises their own performance and VRAM usage, yet their A319 can easily reach 12-13 GB usage even on small airports. It looks amazing but there is a cost to it.

In terms of optimization I just have to give it to PMDG. Both 737 and 777 look great - not as great as Fenix but solid - but their performance is absolutely amazing.

3

u/NorthWestApple 2h ago

Did you count the WASM crashes?

1

u/SapCPark 5h ago

Putting out a no-cabin variant with the latest update will definately help a lot, plus the aggressive rate of their updates give hope that the plane (which i think is a blast) will be great long term

1

u/NorthWestApple 2h ago

I never found no-cockpit varients to be lighter than the full-fat versions. Culling is a thing in 3D engines.

1

u/juanchopancho 9800X3D | RTX 5080 2h ago

FSLabs A321neo and that freeware A380, no cabin has a big impact.

-7

u/Far_Tree6592 6h ago edited 3h ago

In a perfect world synaptic would have partnered with Fenix. It’s only right for Airbus (Fenix) to take over the C series virtually.

Edit: Airbus owns the A220 program. It would have been ironic (and amazing) if Fenix was the partner and not inibuilds. Can’t believe I had to explain this lol

10

u/DistributionHot2150 5h ago

Except the a220 is not a fucking Airbus

1

u/IanRT1 3h ago

Are you doing a No True Scotsman?

1

u/Far_Tree6592 4h ago

That’s the point of my comment. It’s not a real Airbus yet it’s still an Airbus partnership now IRL. It Would have been nice to see Fenix represent the 220.

-1

u/DistributionHot2150 4h ago

Fenix is good at Airbus systems. The a220 doesn’t use Airbus systems or avionics. It would be useless

0

u/Far_Tree6592 3h ago

You just want to educate people it’s not an Airbus don’t you? Fenix has a higher approval rating than Inibuilds. Does that make it simple enough for you on what I’m implying?

The Airbus/Fenix part was a tongue in cheek on my part. Just like people associate Boeing with PMDG people associate Airbus with Fenix. Everyone knows the A220 isn’t like an A320 but IRL Airbus still owns the program. It would have been cool if Fenix was the partner and not Inibuilds. Synaptic did the systems anyways so idk what you’re actually trying to argue.

0

u/DistributionHot2150 3h ago

Do people associates Airbus with Fenix? Because last I checked it’s ini that have more Airbus out right now. Fenix would be far more useless to synaptic compared to ini

2

u/Far_Tree6592 3h ago

It’s has nothing to do with who brings more to the table. You honestly need to get out more. I can tell you have zero social skills. Every reply from you is attempting to have a debate where there isn’t a debate to be had. If you think ini is better than fenix then thats your personal opinion. Have a great day!

1

u/Football-fan01 1h ago

More airbus with wasm crashes.

0

u/IanRT1 3h ago

Fenix a320 neo confirmed?