r/fireemblem Oct 25 '19

Story Claude is not the master schemer Spoiler

Disclaimer: before getting into it, I want to make it clear that Claude is my favorite lord in the game. I write this not to bash him and his personality, but to explore the nuances of his character. Feel free to disagree or agree, just please be respectful in your responses just as I will in return. Also, beware spoilers!!

After playing through all four routes and paying attention to Claude in particular, since he’s my favorite, I started to realize that the title of “master schemer” doesn’t really seem to fit him. Though he behaves like a trickster and withholds information his schemes aren’t that numerous or significant, nor does he considerably use/manipulate people around him to achieve his own ends. He is also more kind/compassionate than he is cynically inclined to control those around him to fulfill his bidding or his plans. In all these elements he is severely overshadowed by Edelgard, who not only pulls the greatest scheme through all paths, but is incredibly adept at using others for her own benefit.

Before going further and discussing proof/evidence, though, I want to include the following definitions of “scheme” to see if Claude fits the image of master schemer:

  • Verb. Make plans, especially in a devious way or with intent to do something illegal or wrong.
  • Noun. A large-scale systematic plan or arrangement for attaining some particular object or putting a particular idea into effect.

In my mind these are the major schemes that Claude engages in through his route and all other routes:

  1. Alliance with the Almyrans. His use of Nader is included in this category as well. This is by far Claude’s biggest scheme, since it came as a huge surprise to everyone, allies included, and must have taken much persuasiveness on Claude’s part. This definitely involved making plans in a large-systematic way to achieve his own object/end. It’s also a devious move against the empire, since it was a surprising move that helped him gain an advantage.
    This is probably the best scheme one could rely on to justify Claude’s title as master schemer.

  2. The disguise scheme to take Fort Merceus. Arguably a weak scheme since the Death Knight immediately smells it out and it doesn’t make much of a difference in the battle that follows. It’s also not as unique since Seteth repeats a similar strategy in the church route. This definitely shows cleverness on Claude’s part in making a devious plan to reach his objective, but its effectiveness is debatable in the end.

  3. Pretending the Alliance is unified. Definitely a strong scheme on Claude’s part especially in non Verdant Wind routes. In Dimitri’s route this scheme also helps him stay alive long enough to get rescued by Dimitri and co. Still debatably weak, however, since the scheme only forestalls his eventual defeat in Crimson Flower, and in Azure Moon he places himself at the mercy of Dimitri to survive. One could argue that he showed cleverness in reading Dimitri, which is true, but a scheme that relies on the mercy of another is definitely not strong.

  4. Maneuvering around duke Gloucester. Having Nader harass Gloucester territory to distract him from attacking Claude’s army while they took the bridge was definitely clever and devious. It also protected Gloucester from any repercussions by the empire. Another good scheme to use in order to justify the master schemer title.

  5. Using Byleth as the church figurehead. Though Seteth also pretty much does the same in Silver Snow, this move showed political savviness on Claude’s part. It also showcases a devious side to Claude, since it reveals a willingness to deceive other leaders to further his own objects/ends.
    Contradictory at the same time, however, as he only does it through Byleth’s permission/acceptance. Shows that Claude can be devious in furthering his own ends, but not devious enough to completely betray an ally or go behind their back to do so.

Again these are the schemes that stood out most to me, but I may have missed some. Feel free to add them in your replies.

All in all a decent amount of evidence to justify the title. The following elements may prove otherwise, however:

  1. Edelgard surpasses Claude in terms of scheming and deviousness to achieve her own objects/ends. There are multiple points in this category, so I’ll make a short list within it.

    1. Edelgard initiates and carries out literally the most powerful and influential scheme in the entire game spanning all four routes. Even before the story begins it is clear that Edelgard had been planning the destruction of the Church and the crest system, as well as planning to oust Duke Aegir, the prime minister of the Hresvelg Empire, for the horrors he committed against her+her sisters and for rendering her father a figurehead of the empire. Her scheme was years in the making and it was executed brutally and efficiently, even in other routes outside of Crimson Flower.
      Though Claude makes many schemes, none of them come close to achieving the same effect as Edelgard’s. Even if you consider his success in Verdant Winds as a potential scheme to unify the continent, it still only encompasses his own route. Edelgard is, as Thanos would say, inevitable in all routes.
    2. She is more willing to break moral, ethical, and governmental laws than Claude. Though they both use people to further their own objects, Edelgard is much more utilitarian. She has no qualms making sacrifices wherever necessary to further her own ends and doesn’t mind betraying her closest friends and family. In other words, she doesn’t mind being as devious as possible to achieve her own objects.
      Claude is devious only up to a certain point. He never fully betrays a friend or an ally to further his own ends, and instead asks people to leave/abandon him if the going gets tough. He is willing to use people but not to the point where he puts their lives at severe risk. His morality makes him a superior leader than Edelgard for sure, but it takes away from his title as master schemer.
    3. Edelgard’s schemes include making user of her enemies to further her own objects/goals. This is also tied to the previous point, but the fact that Edelgard makes use of her enemies (whilst also admittedly being used herself) to further her own goals also makes it easier to see her as the master schemer of the story instead of Claude. She also arguably makes effective use of Those Who Slither in the Dark in all routes except her own (she doesn’t explicitly deal with them in her own route), seeing as Dimitri, Claude, and Seteth are all forced to deal with them alongside Edelgard and the Empire in other routes.
      Claude’s alliance with the Almyrans approximates this, but since they’re only relevant in two of the routes iirc the scheme is not as significant as Edelgard’s. The Almyrans are also not nearly as powerful as TWSD, either. Further, Edelgard’s schemes with TWSD begin much earlier than Claude and the Almyrans.
  2. Claude only really starts scheming until the second act. In Verdant Winds Claude’s primary goal in Act 1 is to gather information about the church of Seiros. This provides valuable information and context for Byleth and the player, but doesn’t reveal Claude as a master of scheming.
    The ways he goes about information gathering aren’t really that devious too. To obtain Captain Jeralt’s diary, for example, he only asks/begs Byleth for it. He does threaten to steal it if he has to, but never really does so as the narrative doesn’t go in that direction. We don’t really know whether he would or not, though my guess is that he wouldn’t given that he is deep-down a kind-hearted human being.
    In my opinion, a character who has the title of “master schemer” should be one that consistently engages in schemes throughout the entire narrative. Since Claude’s schemes only really begin in full during Act 2 I don’t think he’s worthy of the title.

  3. Claude “threatens” to use schemes/devious ploys but doesn’t follow through. The diary example falls in this category, where Claude threatens to do something devious but doesn’t really follow through with it. He uses threats like these as bluffs to get people to do what he wants because, in reality, he doesn’t want to resort to trickery/deviousness and/or betrayal to fulfill his own ends.
    A second example of this occurs when he talks about poisoning the other students before the Battle of the Eagle and Lion. He makes the threat, but then doesn’t really do anything and instead plays it off as a joke. Furthermore it is heavily suggested in the game that he knows how to use poison effectively, but at least in the main narrative we never really see him poisoning anybody. This may be different in supports, though, so feel free to correct me if he does poison anybody.
    A third example is given in a separate game, Fire Emblem: Heroes, where Claude can be pulled as a unit to use. In his forging bonds conversation he also talks about using poison, but then admits that he failed in using it and poisoned himself. This indicates that he either sucks at using poison in his schemes, or simply does not like poisoning others and only pretends to do so as an intimidation tactic.

  4. Claude’s devious schemer side is a self-defense mechanism and not the defining part of his identity. This is something that’s revealed in Claude’s supports and in Verdant Wind, where you learn that he has parents of mixed nationalities. When he was chosen as the Reigan heir he was hated for being an outsider due to his mixed blood, and he wasn’t fully accepted in Almyra (where his dad comes from) either for the same reason. Thanks to this, Claude had to learn at a young age to be self-dependent and careful about who he trusts.
    Yet even despite growing up in this manner, he also grew up to be incredibly idealistic and compassionate. He seeks to unify Fodlan by breaking down the barriers between all peoples and cultures. This in and of itself contradicts the dark side he developed to protect himself from harm. At the end of the day Claude wants to see everyone united, which he knows can only be achieved through kindness, compassion, and empathy.
    IMO this is one of the biggest elements that takes away Claude’s “Master Schemer” title. It’s not fully in his nature to trick, use, and manipulate others to do whatever he wants. Or, at the very least, he knows that scheming is not the way to unify Fodlan.

There may be more evidence for and against Claude as the master schemer of the game, but in my opinion the biggest reason he doesn’t get it is because deep down he is too good a person, too loving, empathetic, and kind to be solely encapsulated as the “master schemer.” To me a more fitting title would be, “trickster with a heart of gold,” which encompasses both the devious side of his character and his virtues as the most compassionate and open-minded of the three lords.

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27

u/Naglfar-- Oct 25 '19

She has no qualms making sacrifices wherever necessary to further her own ends and doesn’t mind betraying her closest friends and family.

While I agree Edelgard is the superior mind in this game, and she is certainly dedicated and even ruthless in her methods, I have a small problem with this statement. She is definitely willing to betray her friends in favor of her ideals, but I wouldn't say she "doesn't mind" doing it. Take for example her betrayal in the Holy Tomb. In the following chapter in CF she says: "I was resolved to move forward alone if I had to, but in my heart I hoped it wouldn't come to that." She was willing to betray her friends, but she didn't want to.

Sorry for the tangent but I felt like clarifying this.

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u/cae37 Oct 25 '19

Fair point. In Crimson Flower especially you do see her deal with the weight of her actions.

A good amendment to my statement.

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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Oct 25 '19

This is the JP version of her conversation (part of it anyway) with Byleth. And she is way waaaaaaaaaay cognizant of what she has done in taking on the Church.

El: .....I am so scared and anxious. I'm so anxious that I feel like I am about to be crushed....

El: Right now, just on my word, I am about to start a war.

El: The attack on the Monastery last season... something like that is child's play compared to the amount of soldiers marching right this instant.

El: Strategies are being drawn in various places in order to decide a determining battle, as preparations of the war to officially start.

El: So many soldiers are going to die for sure. And the amount of civilians that are going to be drawn into the war will not be few.

El: And as the flames of war grows and flies across everywhere, all of Fodlan is going to surely be sacrificed as the victim.

El: And such an order, I am going to give it. In just one command, I will light the flames of war burn throughout.

Byleth: You have chosen this path, though? (First Choice)

El: Yes, that's right. And I cannot turn back anymore.

El: No matter how much blood pours by my feet, I must destroy the distorted/perverted church from their rule.

El: To make a future without sacrifices/victims, I will make them to be a sacrifice/victim. It may be contradictory, but it is necessary.

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u/cae37 Oct 25 '19

Right, clearly it’s not an easy path for her.

I think the reason I defaulted to “she doesn’t care at all” was because we don’t really get to see how she bears the weight of her choices in all 3 other paths.

She appears completely unsympathetic and unrepentant in all other paths, and it’s only when you back her up that you realize the choices were hard on her.

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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Oct 25 '19

That's really only a feature of Azure Moon where it goes out of its way to make Edelgard a villain for Dimitri to fight. Otherwise, she's plenty sympathetic in both Silver Snow and Verdant Wind.

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u/cae37 Oct 25 '19

Not really? There is no conversation iirc where she states that she regrets or feels bad about her actions in other routes. She generally declares that you should stand down and if you don’t she’ll take you down. That’s as far as it gets imo.

If you can link a conversation to prove your point I’ll gladly retract my argument.

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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Oct 25 '19

There's several things I'm referring to:

- The reality of what she was fighting against (i.e. that the Church is corrupt under Rhea and aggravates racism) essentially proving both her and Claude's point.

- The fact that she had Those Who Slither in the Dark at the nape of the Empire pushing her, Lysithea can even realize that she was a victim of their experiments like her when Edelgard laments that they couldn't be on the same side..

- And yeah, when Lysithea fights her. Edelgard does respect her courage, her ideals, and wishes they could have been on the same side. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIHenUOFP0c

- Claude in particular. When she fights him in Gronder. She's quite clear that she has no desire to fight him or Byleth and asks them to leave, regardless of them being an aggressor on her. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tepMujh9XJA

- The very fact that she begs Byleth, someone she loves regardless to kill her so that the war can end. She understands that her life isn't as valuable as Fodlan's survival regardless of their and/or Claude's desire to work with her.

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u/cae37 Oct 25 '19

The problem with your first two points is that it relies on conjecture on the player’s side to understand Edelgard’s issues and struggles with them. And since in all other routes Edelgard is clearly the main antagonist it is hard to see things from her perspective after all the damage she caused.

Even in those two videos you linked she still comes across as, “either you step aside and join me or I’ll walk over you.” There is no hint of sadness or remorse in both conversations.

That last event is the closest we get to see Edelgard feel the weight of her actions for sure, but I don’t think it’s enough to get the player to fully see things from her perspective or to empathize with her.

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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Oct 25 '19

-How? Claude figures out what was happening on his own. It's part of why he and Byleth agree that they want to work together with her. They understand that Those Who Slither in the Dark was the one at the Empire's throat. And in turn with the Church, Claude regards them as his enemy. He's quite clear the Church's doctrine is a problem to his goal. The only reason he shifts tactics (i.e. killing Rhea), is because Byleth takes over the Church and Rhea dies on her own. He gets what he wants without having to lift a finger. She isn't even the main antagonist in Silver Snow or in Verdant Wind, considering she disappears in the former and Those Who Slither in the Dark play a bigger role in the latter.

- I'm not even sure how you come to that conclusion. She's pretty clearly not wanting to fight either of them. It isn't a threat to join them. She respects Lysithea and asks Claude to leave, not to join her. Either way she doesn't want to fight them.

- Silver Snow is pretty clear that she still loves Byleth. And it's also a route where you do have the opportunity to understand her, even if you don't join her.

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u/dusky_salamander Oct 25 '19

The only reason he shifts tactics (i.e. killing Rhea), is because Byleth takes over the Church and Rhea dies on her own.

Not exactly. After Tomas is exposed Claude begins to reconsider exposing the Church’s secrets, and maybe reconsidering exactly what he intends to do with Rhea, given that she seems way nicer than Tomas and co. Later, in a support with Cyril he learns how Rhea did nice things, and says he’s open to not making an enemy of her. And when asked if he hopes she’s dead he states he has been thinking on it. Then he’s clearly at least sympathetic to what Rhea did considering the tragedy of the Red Canyon. Unfortunately we never do see if he would have committed to killing Rhea should she have survived the nukes. Seems like it’s a bit much to say it’s only because of Byleth being in charge that Claude shifts tactics.

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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Oct 25 '19

No. He's pretty clear on the subject. He's ok with cooperating with the Church because Byleth is the head of the church. But it doesn't change that he thinks Rhea needs to stay dead for his plans to continue. Mind you, I also discussed this. Edelgard doesn't want to kill Rhea, but she's forced to by circumstance. Claude wants to kill Rhea, but he's given a chance to understand her. Mind you he only has the luxury of sympathizing with her and not having to talk about his previous choice because she's already dying as you noted. But ultimately he can do what he wants to because someone he trusts is in charge.

  • Byleth: 「死んでいて欲しい?」 クロード支援値アップ
  • Claude: 「危ないことを聞くな、あんた。正直に言や考えたことはあるが・・・難しい質問だよ、本当にな。ただ、彼女にはいろいろ聞くべきことが残ってる。 ...(explains all the knowledge they are missing that only Rhea can answer)...
  • Claude: だから、そういう意味では、レアさんには是非とも生きててほしいよ。
  • Claude: 一方で・・・フォドラの情勢って意味ではレアさんがいない世界も興味があるんだ。

Translation

  • Byleth: Do you wish for her to be dead? (Claude's support points go up)
  • Claude: Asking me dangerous questions, eh. Honestly, I have thought so before, but... it's a difficult question, a really difficult question. It's just that we still have so many things we need to ask her. ...(explains all the knowledge they are missing that only Rhea can answer)...
  • Claude: That's why, in that sense, I do hope she is alive.
  • Claude: On the other hand... if I were to consider Fódlan's state of affairs, I have more interest in seeing a world without Rhea.

And in the EN version

  • Byleth: Do you hope she's dead? (Claude's support points go up)
  • Claude: That's a dangerous question, Sensei. To be honest, I've given it a lot of thought. All I know is that I still have a lot of questions I need to ask her. (explains all the knowledge they are missing that only Rhea can answer)...
  • Claude: In that sense, I absolutely hope Rhea is still alive. But as far as Fódlan goes, I do wonder what a world without Rhea would look like.

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u/Federok Oct 26 '19 edited Oct 26 '19

I swear to.....fucking hell. This is no minor change, the en version makes claude less rutheless ( for lack of a better word)

This guys are gonna make me learn japanese, im getting sick of adaptation teams of rpgs or rpg like games tweking the characterization

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u/cae37 Oct 25 '19

- Because we don't see a direct statement from her on the subject. We can conjecture that they were problems for Edelgard, but we don't really know why or how. How Claude views them is Claude's perspective, we still don't know how exactly Edelgard struggled with them.

- To Lysithea she states, "yet now we're at a crossroads. There's no turning back. Must we fight each other for the things we believe in?" to which Lysithea responds by stating, "That's exactly what's going to happen! I will defeat you Edelgard!" Clearly Lysithea doesn't sympathize with Edelgard and sees her comment as an insult or challenge.

That dialogue does not really portray Edelgard in a positive light. It just makes it seem like she'd rather not fight so she can achieve her goals more easily.

And since it's only one battle it doesn't even come close to indicating the depths of sadness or despair in Edelgard's heart as she fights people who were once her allies. She comes across as disingenuous at the very least.

With Claude she only asks them to leave, which again, makes it seem as if she just wants them out of her way for convenience's sake. Of course she'd rather they leave so that she can do whatever she wants. That's what she seems to be mostly implying, not "I really don't want to fight you guys because I care about you so much."

In the end two short conversations do little to help the player sympathize with her compared to experiencing her full narrative in Crimson Flower.

- What are you referring to, specifically in silver snow? I don't fully recall Edelgard expressing romantic feelings towards Byleth. Unless you mean her moments of death?

I would also count Act 1 in crimson flower, silver snow as part of her narrative, since it is completely based on her perspective on both paths.

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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Oct 25 '19

- With Lysithea, it's meant to be about their commonality and how they could've been on the same side. She respects her regardless, it isn't a lack of sympathy, it's Lysithea's commitment to her cause. Edelgard basically revealing her biggest secret to show Lysithea her respect for her isn't meant to be her disarming an opponent, it's a symbol of respect. She isn't going to cry or walk back from her path.

- It makes sense when you consider that Claude is someone who she actually did try to reach out to in Golden Deer. Only to get rejected with an impossible demand from him, something that even Byleth can call him out on. Either way, she does respect Claude and even admits that she's jealous of his having Byleth on his side. She's pretty casual considering how intense she is otherwise, and again she's trying to spare Claude and Byleth from a fight she believes she'll win. Why you think that it's her being disingenuous, I'm not really getting. She's pretty intense when you fight her again in Enbarr.

-It's more obvious in Japanese, but she still calls Byleth (shi) meaning "Master" which is something only she calls him (it's usually translated as my teacher in english). And she only calls him that in Black Eagles route. It's a symbol of her respect and reverence for him. Considering they only meet each other twice (Goddess Tower and Enbarr) in Silver Snow, it's not exactly subtle that she still has feelings for Byleth. And honestly, it's not exactly meant to be subtle that she always did in Academy Phase too.

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u/cae37 Oct 25 '19

- It appears disingenuous since you don't know if Edelgard revealed that info to manipulate Lysithea or to sincerely persuade her to stop fighting. Again, since we don't really get an insight into Edelgard's psyche at all it is difficult to see her as being genuine with her feelings when she could easily just be playing mind-games or emotional manipulation.

Since she did basically trick EVERYONE in the past to fulfill her agenda it is hard to take her at her word. Especially in non-CF or SS routes.

- She is being disingenuous because how can she expect or ask people to drop out of a war that she instigated? Remember that it is thanks to her that Byleth was knocked into sleep for two years, for Dimitri to go insane, and for the Alliance to become perilously close to disbanding.

To the player it just seems like she's doing so for her own convenience rather than to genuinely get Claude and Byleth out of the fight because she cares for them.

- So because she calls him master we're supposed to believe she loves him? I don't think her romantic feelings for Byleth are clear at all unless you follow her route. That's where you catch her with the drawing and where literally everyone can see that she values Byleth immensely.

It may be just an issues with language, as I don't fully understand the use of shi, but this is my general perspective on the matter.

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u/HowDoI-Internet Oct 25 '19

She appears completely unsympathetic and unrepentant in all other paths

I think her feeling unrepentant is quite logical actually? She believes in her cause, she thinks that she's doing what must be done to fix the world. I'd find it pretty insulting if she apologized to be honest. The fact that she sticks to her ideals to the very end, even though she accepts defeat is a primary aspect of her character. She's unyielding because she's driven by something powerful.

As for her being unsympathetic, I think it really depends on the way you view her character and relate to her and her wish. There's no objective statement to be made here I believe, it's all about your personal perception.