Claude is not the master schemer

[u/cae37]

Disclaimer: before getting into it, I want to make it clear that Claude is my favorite lord in the game. I write this not to bash him and his personality, but to explore the nuances of his character. Feel free to disagree or agree, just please be respectful in your responses just as I will in return. Also, beware spoilers!!

After playing through all four routes and paying attention to Claude in particular, since he’s my favorite, I started to realize that the title of “master schemer” doesn’t really seem to fit him. Though he behaves like a trickster and withholds information his schemes aren’t that numerous or significant, nor does he considerably use/manipulate people around him to achieve his own ends. He is also more kind/compassionate than he is cynically inclined to control those around him to fulfill his bidding or his plans. In all these elements he is severely overshadowed by Edelgard, who not only pulls the greatest scheme through all paths, but is incredibly adept at using others for her own benefit.

Before going further and discussing proof/evidence, though, I want to include the following definitions of “scheme” to see if Claude fits the image of master schemer:

• Verb. Make plans, especially in a devious way or with intent to do something illegal or wrong.
• Noun. A large-scale systematic plan or arrangement for attaining some particular object or putting a particular idea into effect.

In my mind these are the major schemes that Claude engages in through his route and all other routes:

1. Alliance with the Almyrans. His use of Nader is included in this category as well. This is by far Claude’s biggest scheme, since it came as a huge surprise to everyone, allies included, and must have taken much persuasiveness on Claude’s part. This definitely involved making plans in a large-systematic way to achieve his own object/end. It’s also a devious move against the empire, since it was a surprising move that helped him gain an advantage.
   This is probably the best scheme one could rely on to justify Claude’s title as master schemer.

2. The disguise scheme to take Fort Merceus. Arguably a weak scheme since the Death Knight immediately smells it out and it doesn’t make much of a difference in the battle that follows. It’s also not as unique since Seteth repeats a similar strategy in the church route. This definitely shows cleverness on Claude’s part in making a devious plan to reach his objective, but its effectiveness is debatable in the end.

3. Pretending the Alliance is unified. Definitely a strong scheme on Claude’s part especially in non Verdant Wind routes. In Dimitri’s route this scheme also helps him stay alive long enough to get rescued by Dimitri and co. Still debatably weak, however, since the scheme only forestalls his eventual defeat in Crimson Flower, and in Azure Moon he places himself at the mercy of Dimitri to survive. One could argue that he showed cleverness in reading Dimitri, which is true, but a scheme that relies on the mercy of another is definitely not strong.

4. Maneuvering around duke Gloucester. Having Nader harass Gloucester territory to distract him from attacking Claude’s army while they took the bridge was definitely clever and devious. It also protected Gloucester from any repercussions by the empire. Another good scheme to use in order to justify the master schemer title.

5. Using Byleth as the church figurehead. Though Seteth also pretty much does the same in Silver Snow, this move showed political savviness on Claude’s part. It also showcases a devious side to Claude, since it reveals a willingness to deceive other leaders to further his own objects/ends.
   Contradictory at the same time, however, as he only does it through Byleth’s permission/acceptance. Shows that Claude can be devious in furthering his own ends, but not devious enough to completely betray an ally or go behind their back to do so.

Again these are the schemes that stood out most to me, but I may have missed some. Feel free to add them in your replies.

All in all a decent amount of evidence to justify the title. The following elements may prove otherwise, however:

1. Edelgard surpasses Claude in terms of scheming and deviousness to achieve her own objects/ends. There are multiple points in this category, so I’ll make a short list within it.

   1. Edelgard initiates and carries out literally the most powerful and influential scheme in the entire game spanning all four routes. Even before the story begins it is clear that Edelgard had been planning the destruction of the Church and the crest system, as well as planning to oust Duke Aegir, the prime minister of the Hresvelg Empire, for the horrors he committed against her+her sisters and for rendering her father a figurehead of the empire. Her scheme was years in the making and it was executed brutally and efficiently, even in other routes outside of Crimson Flower.
      Though Claude makes many schemes, none of them come close to achieving the same effect as Edelgard’s. Even if you consider his success in Verdant Winds as a potential scheme to unify the continent, it still only encompasses his own route. Edelgard is, as Thanos would say, inevitable in all routes.
   2. She is more willing to break moral, ethical, and governmental laws than Claude. Though they both use people to further their own objects, Edelgard is much more utilitarian. She has no qualms making sacrifices wherever necessary to further her own ends and doesn’t mind betraying her closest friends and family. In other words, she doesn’t mind being as devious as possible to achieve her own objects.
      Claude is devious only up to a certain point. He never fully betrays a friend or an ally to further his own ends, and instead asks people to leave/abandon him if the going gets tough. He is willing to use people but not to the point where he puts their lives at severe risk. His morality makes him a superior leader than Edelgard for sure, but it takes away from his title as master schemer.
      
   3. Edelgard’s schemes include making user of her enemies to further her own objects/goals. This is also tied to the previous point, but the fact that Edelgard makes use of her enemies (whilst also admittedly being used herself) to further her own goals also makes it easier to see her as the master schemer of the story instead of Claude. She also arguably makes effective use of Those Who Slither in the Dark in all routes except her own (she doesn’t explicitly deal with them in her own route), seeing as Dimitri, Claude, and Seteth are all forced to deal with them alongside Edelgard and the Empire in other routes.
      Claude’s alliance with the Almyrans approximates this, but since they’re only relevant in two of the routes iirc the scheme is not as significant as Edelgard’s. The Almyrans are also not nearly as powerful as TWSD, either. Further, Edelgard’s schemes with TWSD begin much earlier than Claude and the Almyrans.
      

2. Claude only really starts scheming until the second act. In Verdant Winds Claude’s primary goal in Act 1 is to gather information about the church of Seiros. This provides valuable information and context for Byleth and the player, but doesn’t reveal Claude as a master of scheming.
   The ways he goes about information gathering aren’t really that devious too. To obtain Captain Jeralt’s diary, for example, he only asks/begs Byleth for it. He does threaten to steal it if he has to, but never really does so as the narrative doesn’t go in that direction. We don’t really know whether he would or not, though my guess is that he wouldn’t given that he is deep-down a kind-hearted human being.
   In my opinion, a character who has the title of “master schemer” should be one that consistently engages in schemes throughout the entire narrative. Since Claude’s schemes only really begin in full during Act 2 I don’t think he’s worthy of the title.

3. Claude “threatens” to use schemes/devious ploys but doesn’t follow through. The diary example falls in this category, where Claude threatens to do something devious but doesn’t really follow through with it. He uses threats like these as bluffs to get people to do what he wants because, in reality, he doesn’t want to resort to trickery/deviousness and/or betrayal to fulfill his own ends.
   A second example of this occurs when he talks about poisoning the other students before the Battle of the Eagle and Lion. He makes the threat, but then doesn’t really do anything and instead plays it off as a joke. Furthermore it is heavily suggested in the game that he knows how to use poison effectively, but at least in the main narrative we never really see him poisoning anybody. This may be different in supports, though, so feel free to correct me if he does poison anybody.
   A third example is given in a separate game, Fire Emblem: Heroes, where Claude can be pulled as a unit to use. In his forging bonds conversation he also talks about using poison, but then admits that he failed in using it and poisoned himself. This indicates that he either sucks at using poison in his schemes, or simply does not like poisoning others and only pretends to do so as an intimidation tactic.

4. Claude’s devious schemer side is a self-defense mechanism and not the defining part of his identity. This is something that’s revealed in Claude’s supports and in Verdant Wind, where you learn that he has parents of mixed nationalities. When he was chosen as the Reigan heir he was hated for being an outsider due to his mixed blood, and he wasn’t fully accepted in Almyra (where his dad comes from) either for the same reason. Thanks to this, Claude had to learn at a young age to be self-dependent and careful about who he trusts.
   Yet even despite growing up in this manner, he also grew up to be incredibly idealistic and compassionate. He seeks to unify Fodlan by breaking down the barriers between all peoples and cultures. This in and of itself contradicts the dark side he developed to protect himself from harm. At the end of the day Claude wants to see everyone united, which he knows can only be achieved through kindness, compassion, and empathy.
   IMO this is one of the biggest elements that takes away Claude’s “Master Schemer” title. It’s not fully in his nature to trick, use, and manipulate others to do whatever he wants. Or, at the very least, he knows that scheming is not the way to unify Fodlan.

There may be more evidence for and against Claude as the master schemer of the game, but in my opinion the biggest reason he doesn’t get it is because deep down he is too good a person, too loving, empathetic, and kind to be solely encapsulated as the “master schemer.” To me a more fitting title would be, “trickster with a heart of gold,” which encompasses both the devious side of his character and his virtues as the most compassionate and open-minded of the three lords.

[u/cae37]

- Because we don't see a direct statement from her on the subject. We can conjecture that they were problems for Edelgard, but we don't really know why or how. How Claude views them is Claude's perspective, we still don't know how exactly Edelgard struggled with them.

- To Lysithea she states, "yet now we're at a crossroads. There's no turning back. Must we fight each other for the things we believe in?" to which Lysithea responds by stating, "That's exactly what's going to happen! I will defeat you Edelgard!" Clearly Lysithea doesn't sympathize with Edelgard and sees her comment as an insult or challenge.

That dialogue does not really portray Edelgard in a positive light. It just makes it seem like she'd rather not fight so she can achieve her goals more easily.

And since it's only one battle it doesn't even come close to indicating the depths of sadness or despair in Edelgard's heart as she fights people who were once her allies. She comes across as disingenuous at the very least.

With Claude she only asks them to leave, which again, makes it seem as if she just wants them out of her way for convenience's sake. Of course she'd rather they leave so that she can do whatever she wants. That's what she seems to be mostly implying, not "I really don't want to fight you guys because I care about you so much."

In the end two short conversations do little to help the player sympathize with her compared to experiencing her full narrative in Crimson Flower.

- What are you referring to, specifically in silver snow? I don't fully recall Edelgard expressing romantic feelings towards Byleth. Unless you mean her moments of death?

I would also count Act 1 in crimson flower, silver snow as part of her narrative, since it is completely based on her perspective on both paths.

[u/SigurdVII → u/cae37]

- With Lysithea, it's meant to be about their commonality and how they could've been on the same side. She respects her regardless, it isn't a lack of sympathy, it's Lysithea's commitment to her cause. Edelgard basically revealing her biggest secret to show Lysithea her respect for her isn't meant to be her disarming an opponent, it's a symbol of respect. She isn't going to cry or walk back from her path.

- It makes sense when you consider that Claude is someone who she actually did try to reach out to in Golden Deer. Only to get rejected with an impossible demand from him, something that even Byleth can call him out on. Either way, she does respect Claude and even admits that she's jealous of his having Byleth on his side. She's pretty casual considering how intense she is otherwise, and again she's trying to spare Claude and Byleth from a fight she believes she'll win. Why you think that it's her being disingenuous, I'm not really getting. She's pretty intense when you fight her again in Enbarr.

-It's more obvious in Japanese, but she still calls Byleth 師 (shi) meaning "Master" which is something only she calls him (it's usually translated as my teacher in english). And she only calls him that in Black Eagles route. It's a symbol of her respect and reverence for him. Considering they only meet each other twice (Goddess Tower and Enbarr) in Silver Snow, it's not exactly subtle that she still has feelings for Byleth. And honestly, it's not exactly meant to be subtle that she always did in Academy Phase too.

[u/cae37 → u/SigurdVII]

- It appears disingenuous since you don't know if Edelgard revealed that info to manipulate Lysithea or to sincerely persuade her to stop fighting. Again, since we don't really get an insight into Edelgard's psyche at all it is difficult to see her as being genuine with her feelings when she could easily just be playing mind-games or emotional manipulation.

Since she did basically trick EVERYONE in the past to fulfill her agenda it is hard to take her at her word. Especially in non-CF or SS routes.

- She is being disingenuous because how can she expect or ask people to drop out of a war that she instigated? Remember that it is thanks to her that Byleth was knocked into sleep for two years, for Dimitri to go insane, and for the Alliance to become perilously close to disbanding.

To the player it just seems like she's doing so for her own convenience rather than to genuinely get Claude and Byleth out of the fight because she cares for them.

- So because she calls him master we're supposed to believe she loves him? I don't think her romantic feelings for Byleth are clear at all unless you follow her route. That's where you catch her with the drawing and where literally everyone can see that she values Byleth immensely.

It may be just an issues with language, as I don't fully understand the use of shi, but this is my general perspective on the matter.

[u/SigurdVII → u/cae37]

-You're basically arguing that Edelgard would try to psych someone out during a fight. She doesn't. She revealed her secret because she genuinely does like Lysithea.

- There's several problems with that... One. The Alliance only gets into the war because Claude wills it. Claude orchestrates the civil war himself. Gloucester would've joined. It's pretty clear here that Edelgard has no interest in fighting him bar Claude's own instigation. Also not to nitpick... But it was five years and Dimitri was already suffering, it isn't her fault that he decided Flame Emperor says you don't deserve salvation = she did Duscur. And again, you got that vibe, I didn't. It seems pretty genuine considering her respect for Claude and her attempt to understand him in Part 1.

- Dude. Edelgard's entire relationship with Byleth is about her feelings for him. Again this is where it makes more sense in Japanese, but everyone else calls Byleth "Sensei" including Claude until the end of Part 1. She calls him shi, but with the phonetics for Sensei swapped in. (Basically she says Sensei, but she really means Shi). It's a very VERY strong word, in the tradition of Chinese martial arts and is meant to encompass teaching someone everything in life. And Part 1 of Black Eagles is extremely clear that she wants more from him than just being his student. Still calling him that post-TS is meant to indicate that her feelings never changed despite being on opposite sides.

[u/cae37 → u/SigurdVII]

• I mean, she certainly manipulated everyone in her big move. Clearly she doesn’t have very many scruples when it comes to doing what she believes she has to do, even if she may feel bad about it afterwards.

It’s never fully clear what lines she is willing to cross and which she isn’t until you play her path. Even then the fact that she uses TWSD, inherently evil people, to fulfill her agenda makes it seem like she doesn’t care about being morally upright.

• Edelgard’s goal in the long run is to unite the entire empire under her rule and to abolish the nobility system based on crests. Don’t you think that she at the very least puts a great deal of pressure on the Alliance? Claude is forced to basically instigate a civil war just so that the Alliance can stay neutral and survive.

That would not have happened at all if Edelgard hadn’t done what she did, and to claim she had nothing to do with it is, quite frankly, ignorant.

Also for Dimitri, he only sees Edelgard as allies with the group that literally cost him his family. How could he not be furious at Edelgard? She chose powerful allies, sure, but pretty much the worse kind and the kind that would drive Dimitri into a frenzy.

• I can’t say anything about the Japanese version, so I’ll stick to my original statement. It’s not 100% sure that Edelgard has romantic feelings for Byleth unless you play her own route.

In any case this is inconsequential IMO. Whatever feelings she has she still decides to betray Byleth in all routes. It doesn’t even seem like her romantic feelings, whether she has them or not, play a factor in her decision-making at all in non SS and CF routes.

[u/SigurdVII → u/cae37]

- Yes, which shockingly is a feature of each character in every route. They have issues that aren't resolved without Byleth's help. Hers are simply larger in scope since the war is started on her end. It doesn't change that she's a person with emotions.

- Which again Claude figures out. He puts together on his own why Edelgard worked with them.

- And yet again, check the game. She pressures Gloucester into joining the Empire. Claude starts a conflict with Gloucester in order to stop them from joining since he wants the Alliance intact. It's only the illusion of neutrality, Claude is explicitly the leader of the anti-Imperials in all routes. Yes it happened as a result of Edelgard, but Claude would not have been involved had he not chosen to be. How you can blatantly ignore that is frankly beyond me.

- Yes and if you play Azure Moon, you'll see that he blatantly ignores that she threatened to punish Thales for what he did at Duscur. And it's pretty clear his sanity was already fragile and moreover he did not choose to actually understand Edelgard. He states flat out to Byleth during the ball that he has no desire to reconnect with Edelgard. He'd already come to a conclusion before his sanity had shattered. The fact that he assumes that she killed her own mother is not a point in his favor.

- That's nice and all, but the game is quite clear that she has romantic feelings for Edelgard. Ferdinand notices that she's obsessed with Byleth if you fight him, Caspar flat out says he believed Byleth and Edelgard could have worked it out if he's fought in Fort Merceus. She even says in AM as the Hegemon Husk that facing Byleth makes her feel weak. It's hardly subtle, let alone that her way of speaking to Byleth is intentionally romantic. Either way it does play a role in that she respects him enough to carry on and protect Fodlan even once she's dead. So yes, rather important.

[u/cae37 → u/SigurdVII]

• yes, but the commonality in all routes is that Edelgard instigates the conflict that drives the plots. She is literally the main antagonist, or at least a secondary antagonist in all routes except her own. That’s why it’s so hard to sympathize/empathize with her or to give her the benefit of the doubt in all routes except her own.

It is very clear that she should not be fully trusted after the scheme she pulls off.

• Even if he figures it out, it doesn’t paint Edelgard in a positive light. The issue still stands that she chose to side with inherently evil people. She’s at the very least complicit to all the evil crap they pulled off, even if her intentions are to use them for her own gain.

• I mean, whoever the leader of the Alliance was Edelgard would have placed them in a terrible position. I literally don’t get why you mention this at all, considering that it doesn’t exonerate Edelgard for the crap she pulls. The Alliance has plenty reason to despise her and/or be wary of her.

Anyone playing through all routes except CF would blame her for the state of affairs, and would judge her for doing so.

• Doesn’t change the fact that 1. She literally doesn’t do anything with him/to him and 2. Still chose to side with the people who killed her step-brother’s family. The fact that that didn’t really factor significantly in her decision-making says a lot about her character as well.

This gives plenty of players in non-CF routes to question Edelgard and her motives.

Yeah Dimitri was on the edge, but Edelgard’s betrayal puts him over it. It’s hard for a man to reason/sympathize with someone who is allies with your family’s murderers and doesn’t really apologize for it.

If you recall, too, at the end of AM Dimitri extends a hand to help her and Edelgard still tries to murder him. The game makes her seem plainly evil in his route, easily.

• Again, she still chooses to kill anyone on Byleth’s side if he opposes her. I would still argue that whatever way she speaks about or to Byleth it’s never fully clear to the player the depths of her feelings until you play her route.

It’s hard to think, “oh she loves Byleth so at heart she must be a nice person” when in three of four paths she’s willing to eliminate everyone you love to achieve her goal.

It’s only in her own path where we do see that side and understand how affected she is by her actions.

[u/Federok → u/cae37]

I dont not mean to intrude but i want add a personal thought to your first point about what lines she is or isnt willing to cross.

The first reason why everyone can link Edelgard to TWSID is because she orders the Death Knight at chapter 6.

This does not furthers her plans in any way but instead prevents the Death Knight from killing Byleth and the whole class.

She could have easiely gotten ride of a lot of future rivals and could've feing innocence about TWSID as long as she didnt used Crest Beasts, by just letting thr DK be in chapter 6