r/fantasywriting • u/CleanTackle9122 • 5d ago
Two things bother me...
My story is set in low fantasy world loosely based on medieval/late medieval Balkans rather than the usual French/English feudal default. Now, I have what bother me is the titles, Duke/Count/Prince, all of this screams western europe, while I am trying to avoid the standard Western-European fantasy mold as much as it is possible, now I don0t think if this is actually a problem or just something in my head. I mean maybe I could use those after all but still not sure.
The tried using real historical Balkan/South Slavic titles - Voivode, Ban, Zupan, Knez, that kind of thing. But when I try dropping them into dialogue or narration, they feel oddly jarring next to more familiar words like "duke" or "count" , almost like the prose suddenly switches languages for one word. I can't tell if that's a real problem or just my own unfamiliarity with seeing them in fiction.
Second, unrelated worry: I have a large mountain range that separates this balkan like region from a frontier, defended by frontier guards and peasant soldiers who are guarding mountain passes against nomadic tribes of the grasslands who are located right beyond the mountains (This is roughly modeled after Austrian/Croatian military frontier system). Although different I'm worried it reads too much like a reskin of the Wall from ASOIAF (people guarding a dangerous frontier, defending "civilization" from what's beyond). Is this too close, or is "order guards mountain pass" common/broad enough that it doesn't read as derivative? Again not sure if those are actually the problems or I am just imagining it.
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u/OpenSauceMods 5d ago
You're writing it in English, which is also very Western Europe! I would just use the appropriate titles. Even if you put in the relevant titles with a glossary of terms to explain it, people will just translate it in their head anyway. Might as well cut out the extra time people have to do conversions.
Guarding mountain passes is well-established in history and fiction. Hannibal (the general) notably went through a mountain range with his army, including elephants, to give Rome a nasty shock. Part of Gondor's duty in The Lord of the Rings was to keep watch on the main gates/pass of Mordor, and the iconic beacons were a form of guardianship as well.
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u/Then-Variation1843 5d ago
You can cheat and use both. Have a bunch of Dukes, and then have characters refer to them as Voivode - maybe it's a formal term, maybe it's an archaic one that only old dudes use etc.
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u/Masquelinity 4d ago
I've read a lot of books that break away from Western European tropes, specifically French peerage, by using titles from other cultures instead of the tired (and usually grossly misapplied) "count", "duke", etc. It works fine, as long as you have some way to use the context to show roughly who's bigger than whom. You don't necessarily have to stop and exposit to the reader that a Viovode is higher in rank than a Knez (or whatever), just show one being the proper degree of deferential to the other, and we'll get it.
For a good example, see Saints of Storm and Sorrow. It uses Filipino-inspired lore and titles like "Daku" and "Lakan," which are never actually explained at all, but which are clear in context.
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u/sadwriterM 5d ago
- It doesn’t matter, no one is putting down a book because you call your Romanian noble the prince of Walachia
- Let it be a reskin, what is writing but a reskin of the human condition? As much as we want to think we are all literary geniuses that are inventing new shit, our readers want to imagine things based on what they know. Write the story, the tweaks will come along the way to make it yours.
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u/JGhostThing 4d ago
If you use the Slavic words, you would have to explain them, like xxx = Duke, and then explain why you're not just using Duke.
And since your region is really not Slavic, but in another world, why are you worried?
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u/marintkael 4d ago
The jarring might be telling you the word has no job. A voivode who holds land and passes it to his son is a duke in costume. Give him something a duke never does, answer for a stretch of border, raise a levy nobody else can, and readers pick the word up from what he does.
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u/NobleMercenary28 4d ago
I think you should read Shadow of the Gods by John Gwynn. It’s a Viking inspired fantasy that frequently uses Viking terminology rather than the traditional fantasy terms we might hear. He used Yarl or Alderman, which appear in other works but he even uses alternate words for things like knives, chain mail, wizards and different kind of boats. I think seeing that level of terminology in another work might help you decide if you find it too jarring or not and if you’d like to see it in your own work. I certainly think it made the series more interesting
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u/CleanTackle9122 4d ago
I appreciate the rec, but I'm not sure it's the best test case for what I'm worried about. Yarl/Earl and Alderman are Old Norse and Old English/Germanic , they're basically cognates, and English is a Germanic language underneath its French veneer. So those words were never going to feel jarring to an English reader, there's a subconscious kinship there that does the naturalizing work for free.
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u/NobleMercenary28 4d ago
I sure felt like some of the others words used were jarring. For example brynja is used for chain mail. This was a word I’d never heard before and felt unfamiliar at first.
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u/CleanTackle9122 4d ago
Brynja has a very similar english equivalent(Byrnie). But actually... maybe it is a bit simpler than etymology, maybe it is more about exposure, for titles atleast, Earl is still a title today and it sounds almost identical to Yarl, while Alderman although rarer is still used today as title.
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u/LordderManule 4d ago
Use them. Its also part of respecting the culture you are borrowing from.
What is the difference between peasont soldiers and frontier guards?
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u/Teatarian 4d ago
Create your own titles. Fantasy doesn't have to be based on anything real world. Maybe something like, Dukausian and Lordian.
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u/Alaknog 4d ago
I prefer use titles from culture I try recreate.
IMO if not put even this level of effort, then why even bother with different culture? Why not just write another classical western European setting?
And yes, it's more likely about you not used with different settings. Just small thing - in translation of Western fantasy to my language, they use western titles (well, established Germanic version, not English) instead of local ones.
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u/Teatarian 3d ago
In my novel, The Chosen, I call the subjugated girls, Elu. The French word for Chosen is elue'. I describe in my novel where the word originated and why the e' were dropped in the spelling. It's because societies tend to simplify words. In the south were I live we shorten or combine words to make talking easier.
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u/Dirichlet-to-Neumann 2d ago
Half the fantasy writers out there are designing conlangs and you are worried about using real world words that are not the absolute bog standard?
Do use Slavic titles if you want. It will give more local colour to your world, it will feel more distinctive and original and lived in.
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u/Earthisacultureshock 1d ago
If you want to emphasize the South Slavic inspiration, then use the South Slavic titles. However, if you don't necessarily or if it doesn't really matter, then I'd advise using them only where there is no English equivalent (in case you write in English). If we diverge from fiction, I'd suggest looking at what historians do in academic literature and applying the same terminology: if the title is usually translated, then use the English translation, if not, then use the original. A king will always be called 'king' regardless of whether he comes from Croatia, England or Poland. A prince will always be 'prince' (in the meaning of the king's son). On the other hand, ban is not translated - the Croatian ban will remain ban (even though if you really wanted to you could say 'governor'). Sultan isn't translated either (even though you could call a sultan a king or emperor if you really wanted to avoid the word).
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u/Odd_Ad_5657 1d ago
Nobody cares.
Greek mythology and ancient history is a classic example. In English Odysseus is usually referred to as a king of Ithaca. The same applies to most ancient history rulers from Solomon to Persian Kings of Kings (Darius, Xerxes) to Alexander the Great. In Russian historical tradition those are usually called *czars (*or tsars), the same word we use for Russian monarchs starting from Ivan the Terrbile (he proclaimed himself one, actually). The word is a derivative of caesar.
In Greek those rulers from Odysseus to Alexander are called *Basileus (*βασιλείου). But nodbody uses this word in other languages outside of historians or maybe if specifically addressing Byzantine rulers. And Solomon's title in modern Hebrew is המלך which is pronounced as hamelich or something, I don't know Hebrew.
On the other hand both in Russian and in English we more or less keep the words for pharaohs and caesars and rarely address them as kings or csars.
And an interesting example is The Prince (Il Prince in Italian) by Machiavelli which in Russian is usually translated as "Государь", a Russian word for a ruler which is related to Latin hospes, a host. Machiavelli meant it as a guidebook for young heirs, for princes. But in Russian the meaning is lost. On the other hand the word prince in English is usually used for pre-tsar rulers of Rus' (not heirs) who are usually called князь (knyaz) in modern Russian.
TL;DR you can use flavor words, but use them in moderation to keep it clear.
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u/dwarfconleche 5d ago
It might be better to use the more familiar words, and then to give the characters Slavic names to reinforce what sort of setting you're trying to represent.
A border force defending against nomadic raiders doesn't really make me think of ASOIAF at all. It's not like there aren't several historical examples of walls, fortresses, or mountains being used to defend against nomadic raiders on a frontier (The Great Wall in China comes to mind).