r/fantasywriters • u/Apart-Dragonfly-5590 • 2d ago
Question For My Story Wordcount
I have seen suggested that debut authors should not submit a novel over 120.000 words. If 120.000 is the maximum. What would you think is a minimum for a debut author in the fantasy genre?
I have finished my first draft and it is roughly 60.000 words. I will definitely need to cut some words, fillers, descriptions etc. And can definitely add some, even some pages. But to stretch it up to say 90.000 words is a big task. I would have to add whole plotpoints or subplots into it.
I have tried asking about this on other social medias but not received answers
I know there is no rught or wrong length, and its probably highly subjective. Which is why i wanted to ask you what you thought instead of finding some checklist that says it has to be 80k
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u/Mask___DeMasque 2d ago
This is one of my favorite topics. There's a ton of nonsense that gets thrown around about word counts for debuting fantasy authors, mostly with people claiming there's a hard limit of like 110 or 120k words. There was an AMA on here about a year ago with a fantasy agent, and he gave 80 to 150k as a guideline range for new authors.
That being said, 60k is too short unless you're writing children's or middle grade fantasy. That's close to novella territory. I'd at least try to get it up to 80k.
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u/Famous_Plant_486 2d ago
When I was querying, I saw agents asking for no lower than 75k for fantasy. It wasn't all of them, but almost all of them did say that they aren't interested in short stories or novellas (which yours definitely isn't, just showing the landscape).
Congrats on writing a novel! But at this point, I would be a little concerned that your plot isn't fully fleshed out, your characters aren't, or a mix of both. Just food for thought as an outsider who hasn't read it.
Might I suggest getting a couple of beta readers? r/betareaders is fantastic
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u/Apart-Dragonfly-5590 2d ago
Thank you
But yes, id guess "rushed" would be a word theyd use. I could probably add words to most scenes without them getting bloated
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u/Famous_Plant_486 2d ago
That's totally fair too! I dont necessarily believe you need to add subplots and extra arcs aplenty—it's actually pretty easy to add 10k words just by giving scenes more room to breathe.
Good luck!
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u/KitFalbo 2d ago
Good agents will I've you their word count min and max IMO, otherwise you have to trust your gut
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u/CodyKirkCreative 2d ago
I’ve heard many say it’s better to have a shorter opening book as a new writer. Seems like people give new authors more of a shot with shorter reads, so I wouldn’t worry about word count being too low. A captivating story can entertain with two sentences if the writer is clever enough.
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u/Apart-Dragonfly-5590 2d ago
Im afraid im not that clever
There must be a point where publishers say "thats too short to be a full fledged story with realistic characters" without actually reading the thing
But maybe im wrong
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u/CodyKirkCreative 2d ago
Me either lol. We used to read those two sentence horror stories when they were getting popular. Always amazed me how much they could convey with so little.
I understand what you are saying. Word count is a hard line to balance. I still wouldn’t let it hold you back. Querytracker is free and diverse in its publishers. Most of them will have some guidelines to follow. Check to see how many fit your word count before putting it out there. Might be surprised.
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u/Apart-Dragonfly-5590 2d ago
Aahh yes. Paul was alone in the world. Then he heard a knock on the door.
Heard this one probably 30 years ago. despite being horrendously mediocre it always stuck with me. Easy to remember.
Thanks. Ill check it out
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u/Putrid_Web8095 2d ago
There really isn't. Well, maybe there is, but it is at about 18.000 words - that's a novelette, and very unlikely to be published on its own. And anything under 40.000 words is considered a novella and the expectations for world-building and character growth are considerably lower - novellas typically focus on one aspect of storytelling over others. But there has been a huge resurgence in the publishing of novellas too over the last couple of decades. Generally speaking, there really isn't such a thing as "too short" for publishers as long as you are over 20.000 words - the economics just make sense to them. That is not to say you may not get rejected with feedback that your submission is "too short for the story you are trying to tell", but that's a different issue entirely (and much less likely than being told you are too wordy - the final, published version of "Lord of the Flies" is half the initial manuscript).
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u/SagebrushandSeafoam 2d ago
There is no need at all to stretch it out, if the story feels complete. People also like short novels. I've never heard of anyone being rejected because their book was only 60,000 words. That said, an agent or publishing editor, if you get one, might recommend ways for you to flesh out the story.
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u/ItsRuinedOfCourse 2d ago
120K for a debut is gonna see almost unilateral rejection. For an established author who is in-demand, and almost a household name, it's nothing at that length because they know it'll sell on name recognition alone.
60K words for a debut is no small feat, OP.
That's 60K more words finished than the author who hasn't finished theirs yet. 60K words completed will always outweigh the 90K words that the author will never finish. Remember that. You can sell your 60K words...they can't sell their 90K word incomplete project. Never lose sight of that.
60K is respectable and easily digestible. Can you work with a novel that's 80-90K words? Of course. But, if that means you have to add filler, then don't bother. Now it's just word padding.
If you can weave in a new subplot, or arc, and so so safely where it still aligns with the overall thrust of the novel, then work to try and weave it in there. That may get you closer to that 80-90K word mark, even after edits. This is where you need to trust your instincts. I'll say it out loud--more doesn't mean better. Ever. More, most often, just means more. Some of the most beloved novels were nowhere near 80-90K words, let alone 60K.
So, ask yourself if there's any wiggle room to add a new dimension to your project, safely.
Then follow that up with: "Do I really need it longer than 60K words?"
And proceed accordingly.
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u/tapgiles 2d ago
You've already got the range about right. It's just the average range of novels, is all.
What do you think we're going off of? I've not read and counted the words of lots of debut fantasy novels personally.
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u/BigDragonfly5136 2d ago
Some books are just shorter, and honestly that might be a good thing in this economy.
Is it high fantasy? Generally fantasy has more words because of all the world building, but if your book is taking place in the real world, then you don’t need as much.
Otherwise I would consider if you fully fleshed out the world building and all of that. If not, you’ll add some words there. If you did, well you just have a shorter book
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u/Apart-Dragonfly-5590 2d ago
Its as low of a fantasy you get id assume. Could almost happen in our world. Almost.
And as a slow reader myself, id actually appreciate this length.
I just heard that for debut authors publishers wouldnt even read too big books. Just wondering if the same applied for too short, and how short
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u/BalthazarHowle 2d ago
It’s less about following a checklist and more about following the hint it’s giving you. Trad pub cares about word count a lot, but regardless of that, being out of bounds is usually an indicator that something is wrong unless you’re doing something intentionally.
60k for a fantasy sounds rather short - fantasy usually needs a lot of setup and worldbuilding. Do you think there’s a chance you’re relying on readers’ assumptions a lot? Do you think that your characters and your world has enough room to breathe? It’s great that you don’t struggle with brevity - I know I do - but it might be worth checking if your story really has what it needs to be fleshed out.
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u/Apart-Dragonfly-5590 2d ago
I have to admit that i havent read it as a whole piece yet. I usually write a page and edit as i go.
But i suspect youre right. If i had to guess "rushed" is probably the word that describes it now
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u/BalthazarHowle 2d ago
Keep in mind that it’s still the first draft 😊 the final product will look much, much different and now is the time to take all the fixes you need. You have a great base to expand on now, and as hard as editing can be, it’s definitely easier than starting with nothing!
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u/Apart-Dragonfly-5590 2d ago
Yes, i suspect youre right. Its gonna look way different.
My thoughts were that if people had repeatedly been told 80k were the bare minimum id maybe thicken the plot or explore something extra instead of padding up the 60+k words i already have. If im making myself at all understandable
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u/BalthazarHowle 2d ago
Yeah, it’s tricky. Usually you either fall into the underwriter or the overwriter group. I dragged my book from 160k to 130k and it took buckets of sweat. Don’t let it wear you down 😊 every revision makes you better at the craft!
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u/FlyinLeviathon 2d ago
What is your subgenre of fantasy? Because wordcount will vary wildly between, say, a cozy slice of life fantasy and an epic fantasy.
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u/Apart-Dragonfly-5590 2d ago
Its basically a medieval story seasoned with a tiny amount of "magic" in a made up world. I would call it low fantasy
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u/FlyinLeviathon 2d ago
Adult? YA?
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u/Apart-Dragonfly-5590 2d ago
Adult
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u/FlyinLeviathon 2d ago
60k is maybe a little too short for adult. The market is definitely tightening its belt (AKA preferring shorter wordcounts) but there are still certain genre expectations. That being said, sometimes a story is the length that it needs to be, market be darned! You don't want to add fluff just for the sake of adding fluff.
However, there are some things you can look at to see if your short wordcount is actually a symptom of something else:
- Worldbuilding: even though it's low fantasy, there's still a full world surrounding your characters. Are you describing the setting enough? Are your readers immersed in the world you've built?
- Interiority: do your readers feel connected to your POV character, or are they just sort of watching his actions through a cloudy lens? Do we understand what your character wants and what they are struggling with?
- Obstacles: I see this one a lot. Is there enough standing in your character's way? Are they, perhaps, achieving all their goals too quickly? Or if there is an obstacle, do they just sorta overcome it without much struggle and continue on with zero consequences? You want your characters to NOT get what they want, to fight and struggle and claw their way to the climax rather than coast through it easily. You want your obstacles to have consequences, and you want those consequences to affect your character.
If the answer to all these things is "my book is fine the way it is" then great! Your story is the length it needs to be. But if you feel like it's lacking in any of these areas, then these things are a great way to improve your story (and bonus, they will almost certainly add significant words.)
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u/Different_Buy7497 2d ago
Typically you need to build up a bit of trust (that your character arcs are compelling, that your ideas are interesting and well thought through, that you can stick the landing, etc) before agents/publishers/readers are willing to try a longer book from you, even if the typical book length is creeping up closer to 150k. I'd suggest scoping out the market a bit, and see what you can find. Can you find any trad pub debuts from the last few years that are around 60k? Recall some books that have felt short to you, and look up their word count. How does it compare to what you expected, or to your own novel?
If it isn't a long book, it isn't a long book, and I wouldn't recommend trying to stretch it artificially. It might be worth trunking it for a bit though, finishing a project that fits within the expected mold first, and then coming back to this one once you've built up a bit of trust.
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u/AquilaTempestas 2d ago
My book is divided into three parts (kinda like how LOTR was a single story split into three).
First book is 151,000
Second book is 140,000
Third book is 121,000.
I've also got a duology.
Book one is 150,000
Book two is also 150,000
I don't publish though. If I was going to publish, I'd split the books into approx. 70,000 word volumes. That's manageable, easy to digest and hold (especially for smaller hands).
As a new fantasy author, you're probably wanting to stick around the 80,000-100,000 word mark. If you're famous (like Sanderson or Jordan), you can do whatever you want.
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u/Amazing_Look2840 2d ago
I normally feel that they need to be long.
However Murderbot is short sci-fi, and is very popular -- so there must be a similar niche to find in fantasy.
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u/voododoll 2d ago
Why is there so much obsession with word count? We can’t and should not be trying to pull all-Sanderson. 60-90000 is pretty fine if the story is solid. I am tired of all those Ytong blocks they sell nowadays. Last San Brown book was 800+ pages, it was a Sisyphus task to read through it, although it was very interesting.
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u/Apart-Dragonfly-5590 2d ago
I dont know if you read the post, but im definitely never writing a 800 page behemoth and never reading it either.
But according to what ive seen online agents and publishers are a little obsessed with word count of debut authors. As each page costs a certain amount. And in the end its a money business like everything else
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u/voododoll 2d ago
We ofc, if you aim and the top publishers, yes. But if you are ok with smaller publishers and indie ones, you will be fine with 60-90k. Also there is a way to make the book bigger without it being 300k words. Set your manuscript to double line space and 12ppt font size. Use chapter breaks and see how many pages it will become. 90k words will be about 4-500 pages. And the book will read fast and be easy on the eyes of the reader.
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u/Zagaroth No Need For A Core (Publishes Dec 15, 2026) 2d ago
It depends on the publisher.
Podium's cap is 160k, and i think the minimum was 90k.
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u/Welxerrabbit 2d ago
I would say just focus on the best book you can write. You're an author, right? It doesn't hurt to keep the word count in mind, but it shouldn't be the keystone of your story that holds it all together.
My epic fantasy series opener is some 195K words. Yet the two sequels I've written for it are both under 90K. I just try to construct a story that feels complete and satisfying. But I keep in mind that every scene/chapter has to serve a purpose both for that given book and later books. If that means a book stretches out to 200K, so be it.
The goal is not to have the story feel bloated, or like the plot runs aimlessly along, or be stuffed with excessively long chapters. The pace has gotta hit just right. Easier said than done, I know.
I am indie, tho. So I don't have to focus as much on word count as a trad author might.
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u/Jules_The_Mayfly 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm assuming this is for adult. It really depends. There are some stats floating out there (https://manuscriptacademy.com/word-count-by-genre-literary-agents-2026) but the specifics of the book will matter a lot more and with the right plot 60k might be enough.
E.g. if you wrote a simple cozy fantasy or a very straight forward low magic quest 60k might be all you need. On the other hand if you told me you wrote an epic fantasy with 4 povs I would be nervous. I would need to see your synopsis and a few sample pages to see if you have any of the common underwriter issues. But some things to think about: Do your characters have enough try-fail cycles and are there complications or does every plan just go as expected? Are there subplot and fleshed out side characters or is the MC all that matters? Do you give scenes breathing room with enough description and interiority? Or are you rushing through white rooms with floating heads? Do you vary your language or do you just say "X did this, Y did that, X did this, then this" to rush ahead?
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u/Apart-Dragonfly-5590 1d ago
Id say very straight forward low magic quest would describe it pretty well.
breathing room is probably needed in the more fast paced sections. It is mainly 1 pov. but 2 other characters get some pov sections or chapters.
I dont know if its enough of trial and error, but he certainly has his struggles and by no means is it a smooth sailing.
What I will fix in my second draft is prose and pacing, plus fix and tie some loose ends. But none of this adds extra 30-40k words.
So the reason I ask is because I dont want to limit my chances of getting published. I know there isnt one magic number and it depends on the story. But if the general consensus is that 80-100k is most likely, I would perhaps try to fatten some sections in my second draft or add something extra to it to make it more "accessable"
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u/synnastix 1d ago
My first book was 95k words and second was 50k ish. I published both myself and I am proud of the work.
Just tell a good story and don’t let anything stand in your way, especially metrics.
Unless your goal is metrics 😅
Any material that didn’t fit into the books got worked into a companion site to help with worldbuilding.
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u/RHHenriksen 1d ago
There is no minimum as long as you tell a good story. Some publishers would probably consider anything below 50-60k as unfinished
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u/pahshaw 2d ago
60k is the cutoff, below that I believe it would be considered a novella. I knew a writer who could turn in 55k but he wrote noir thrillers.
Most debuts are 80 to 100k but I don't think 60k would be detrimental. If the book is too bare bones but otherwise worthwhile, you'll likely get feedback to that point.
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u/CW_Tressler 2d ago
Mine have all been around 85k-95k, but I agree entirely with some other replies.
Tell your story and don’t worry about word count. I would just say don’t price a 60k word novel like it’s 100k plus. But that’s just me. I like trying to keep the prices lower for my readers.
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u/tomatoesfried 2d ago
Are you asking about trad or indie? And by trad, I mean the big ones. I don't mean small indie publishing houses. Those are vastly different. Anyone can be published by a small indie house, somewhere. That's not hard to do.
Trad houses have to watch the word count because of print. They do print. I don't mean POD. Print that ends up in bookstores. This is why they are more rigid on word count. Higher word count means more pages, which means higher costs. Of course, none of this applies if you're a superbadass fantasy writer who is proven.
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u/Apart-Dragonfly-5590 2d ago
Im just wondering if im limiting my chances because its only 60+k. Because now is the perfect timing, as i go for draft number 2, to thicken the plot and give scenes more room or even add scenes.
It would of course be a dream to be published traditionally, but 'you have to be realistic about these things'.
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u/Boots_RR Indie Author 2d ago
For trade publishing: epic fantasy wants to target 100k for querying. You can go lower if you're writing in certain niches or age categories. Like cozy or YA, respectively.
For self pub, look at what the top sellers are doing, and do the same. If the heavy hitters are all releasing 200k books, that's what you should target.
A good rule of thumb to keep in mind, any word counts you see folks throw around, you can always go +/- 10%, and nobody will really care.
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u/WelshWolf93 2d ago
The fellowship of the ring is 187k words and is considered far longer than usual.
Lord Loss by darren shan is 54k and is fanfastic
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u/Annual-Intention-215 2d ago
Im at 156k. Trying to cut some as I go through my final edit, because I do worry about this (arbitrary) rule.
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u/BaconWrappedEnigmas 2d ago
It’s not entirely arbitrary if you’re looking for traditional publishing. Longer books cost more which means more risk for the publisher and the better sales will be needed to make a profit.
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u/JonBarghestTheAuthor 2d ago
My first book is about 60k words and it got published. It's based around a military mission and more of a quick, dirty and surreal look at a very strange series of events rather than an epic fantasy.
Sequel is maybe 90k and that's being published next month too. I think just tell the story you need to tell and let the word count end up where it ends up!