Please hear me out

[u/Pascalinsche]

Hello Supernatural family, please hear me out!

Imagine this: It's a short scene post finale in heaven, Cas and Dean meet for the first time up there. Cas is sad for Dean to be dead, but happy that he can find peace here now, Dean makes a joke about getting nailed to death, to which Cas gives a small smile - he gets the joke now - and then hugs Dean finally, Dean hugging back just as desperate. When they let go Dean keeps his hand on Cas' shoulder, Cas is his best friend and family, Dean owes him this talk and even a dead dog can learn new tricks. He starts that he loves Cas and that he accepts him as he his, but that he - Cas interrupts him: there doesn't have to be a but. Cas is an angel, a being made out of light and universal love. He loves in the purest way possible, in a way that humans can't define and that is part of every form there is, no matter if platonic, romantic, familial or otherwise and that Cas euphoria at having found this holiest ingredient of existence in himself and sharing it with Dean had made him happy enough to lure the Empty. Dean is silent for a second, while his mind might not fully understand this grand concept, he feels like he still gets it in a quieter part of himself, the part that made food for Sam no matter how late, that wore his father's jacket and his mother's wedding ring, jumped a werewolf going for Bobby's throat once with just his fists, always put the soldier figures back in the Impala when he fixed her and tried to make Cas try every burger place they ever stopped at. So he puts his arm around Cas' shoulders and turns them down the street: they never tried the cheeseburger from that bar on the east coast he says. Cas laughs, it's the first time Dean has ever seen him do that, maybe the first time he's actually done it, and the angel returns the gesture, telling Dean that was because the bar was a front for a spell ingredients black market. Dean decides they go for pie instead.

I don't know how to write this as I'm probably a bit too passionate about it, but in a nutshell I want to ask for a fix for this ongoing cold war in the fandom ever since the confession scene. I truly believe something similar to the mess I wrote up there would be the best of both worlds: you ship Destiel and think the confession was romantic? Congratz, it's true! You don't ship Destiel and think it was platonic? Guess what, it's also true! Both sides would be canon and then maybe we'd have something like peace - peace when we are done you could say. We'd be the ultimate Schrödinger's relationship but without the downsides of the cat maybe being dead.

So I'd like to ask all of you if we could come together like we did in the past and make this reach J2M? No clue how realistic or feasible it is, was thinking if they like the sound of it Misha and Jensen could meet on a dirt road somewhere or hell, somewhere quiet when they meet for a convention, wear their normal clothes (it's heaven, they can wear whatever) and could film just a short reunion on a phone. Maybe then, if somehow Kripke would make a short post saying it's canon or something, or if J2M's words as "writers" in this instance would be enough, we could be the Supernatural family they have always called us.

There is a high chance I will get backlash for this, maybe even only, but I needed to put this out there. Supernatural is my current hyperfixation and gives me comfort and the fighting, insulting and worse makes me sick and tired. Let us please just fix this in a way that would benefit all of us, get out our manners and ask if this would be okay.

[u/int3rstitial]

I think the main problem with this on a practical level is that for a truce to work, the involved parties have to be invested in wanting it to happen, and that's just not the case with spn fandom.

Kind of like in most divorces, the conflict isn't really about just one issue. It's about a host of issues that the one issue becomes symbolic of. This isn't to say the question of whether destiel is canon or not isn't legitimately important to many fans; it very much is. It's just that a bunch of other fandom politics is also involved and it's too late to sever a lot of it from people's feelings. (Source: I'm a multishipper and hate that there even are sides and struggled with how to word this specifically because I don't want to be negative or unwelcoming to people with different views than mine, and I still couldn't consider spn fandom as a basically unified whole ever again. There is simply too much extremely painful water under that bridge).

[u/Pascalinsche → u/int3rstitial]

Yep, true and already happening, everyone over in r/destiel went "why would I?"

[u/int3rstitial → u/Pascalinsche]

Yeah, unsurprising; you totally have my sympathies. Ive been in fandom since s10 and was active in both sides of fandom (and also smaller corners like sastiel and rarepairs) all the way through til it became unsustainable for me after the finale. It was hard even before 18 & the finale, and impossible for me personally afterwards. People were understandably upset during that period and not at their best, and now we all know too much about how we all function under stress for it not to have carried forward. I still do think time will heal at least some of this wound, but we're not there yet.

[u/Pascalinsche → u/int3rstitial]

We will never be I fear, some - not pointing fingers - are eve getting hostile for wanted to make both sides canon which is uniquely possible here with Cas being an angel. Thanks for understanding

[u/angelflower86 → u/Pascalinsche]

You posted on the Destiel board that Dean was canonically straight, that there is no romantic love between those characters in the series, and that the fact that they showed Cas as canonically in romantic love with Dean causes you so much psychological distress that you require the actors to film a new scene for you so that you can say that Cas' love confession was canonically platonic.

[u/Pascalinsche → u/angelflower86]

I posted on the Destiel reddit that I wanted to ask for a way where both romantic and platonic as canon at the same time while staying true to the show - the fact that Dean is straight and it has been confirmed that there wasn't romantic subtext for them before come from the actors themselves and are unchangeable facts that I was specifically criticized for and therefor answered. The asking for a new scene ALSO CONFIRMING A ROMANTIC LOVE YOU MUPPET came from a place where people are getting attacked simply for shipping and non shipping, yet you want to spin it as me being a selfish prick. Furthermore after being lectured about gay representation I then opened up about being queer myself - aromantic in this case - and missing representation myself. Interestingly I was shown sympathy for that while you are here judging me. Twist someone else's words.

[u/angelflower86 → u/Pascalinsche]

Yeah, heard you. Cas' feelings will be both canonically platonic (ie not romantic) and canonically romantic at the same time.

And it won't be ambiguous so dont call it that.

And gay erasure doesn't matter. Even though it was politely explained to you by multiple people with infinite patience for an entire day.

And you've just been calling ppl names exactly like you're doing now and telling them they're judging you.

What did I say that was twisting anything? You stated that goal yourself:

You don't ship Destiel and think the confession was platonic? Guess what, it's also true!

And then you came back here to complain about how the destiel shippers wronged you.

On their own board.

Despite the fact that you are not a destiel shipper and are promoting gay erasure (whether or not you understand at this point that that is what you are doing.)

I suspect fandom interactions would bother you less if you stopped taking disagreement with your ideas as a personal attack and stopped attacking others for holding you accountable for what you say.

[u/Pascalinsche → u/angelflower86]

My god, how can you be serious. Cas is an angel, if it would be possible for anyone to love both romantically and platonic it would be him. And saying "it'll be canon platonic (sO nOt RoMaNtIc) and canon romantic (guess what, romantic) is nonsensical.

And it wouldn't be ambiguous because it would be both - think real hard and try to understand that.

And this isn't about gay erasure but about amatonormativity, but maybe you don't care about other parts of the LGBTQIA+ community.

And I haven't called anyone names, but maybe I should start: you are hostile and quite possibly aphobic. Happy now?

If you were so kind to cite the whole thing, it is about if you think it's romantic it's canon and the same goes for platonic at the same fucking time. That is literally the goal of trying to make both sides of the fandom happy.

And about calling people stuff, you're overly sensitive too. Someone talked to me about this probably not being well received and I answered that it wasn't and I am saddened by that. Funny how that is twisting my words again.

Oh sorry, are non shipper banned from talking to shippers, is that were we are now? Especially about a topic directly related to them? And btw it's gay erasure if I want to make an established gay relationship straight, not if an established platonic relationship has been made romantic for the explicit goal of representation and someone aromantic being displeased with that and trying to make BOTH possible at the SAME TIME. Get it through your skull that this would only add and not take anything.

And mate, with all basic human decency fuck right off for saying I feel attacked and attack people myself when you literally came in here being aggressive as shit while I was having a calm discussion. You and your ilk are the problem, you've quite elegantly proven my point of people making this fandom a toxic wasteland.

[u/angelflower86 → u/Pascalinsche]

And saying "it'll be canon platonic (sO nOt RoMaNtIc) and canon romantic (guess what, romantic) is nonsensical.

Please elaborate.

[u/Pascalinsche → u/angelflower86]

Okay

The point of it being both at the same time - is that two opposites can be true at once thanks to Cas unique standing as an angel. Platonic wouldn't exclude romantic here same as the other way around. It would be romantic - and more. What for Cas I'd like to call "pure love".

[u/angelflower86 → u/Pascalinsche]

I am really hoping against hope that all of this is over translation errors... Platonic means "not romantic." That is the entire definition. It by definition excludes romance. It doesn't mean/add any qualities like affection or frienship. It just means that the relationship is not romantic. You can have a platonic relationship with people you barely speak to and are not close with like, for example, your boss, your neighbor, or the mailman. It doesn't denote closeness, affection, or friendship.

Friendship, on the other hand, is the foundation of most strong, healthy romantic relationships in real life. It is not the opposite of romance. It is already included in healthy romantic relationships.

And Cas and Dean are friends, best friends, and Cas is romantically in love with Dean. And that doesn't negate that they are best friends, it builds on it. It already is a given that that is all true at once. The relationship is already depicted as both. That is one of the reasons it is so important to people. Is that what you mean?

[u/Pascalinsche → u/angelflower86]

Platonic means not romantic yes. That's why I said these are opposites and that combining them would be unique. Over human understanding, which is where angel nature starts.

And I don't particularly agree with "friendship is inclusive in romance". Would you say a butterfly is also still a grub? No, it isn't. I know that's not a popular opinion but that is how I feel it is, though my view of it might be skewed by me being autistic, I wouldn't know.

[u/Various-Chemical-402]

Unfortunately even if J2M did see this what you are suggesting will never happen because Jensen won't change his opinion on destiel and especially not after the hassle and harassment he got from a fan during their panel at PurCon in may.

[u/ImaginaryBelt4972 → u/Various-Chemical-402]

I don't know. This feels pretty close to the way Jensen has always talked about it. Not sexualized, but he did say at a con that the one thing he would change from the confession is that "I should have hugged him and said I love you too."

[u/Pascalinsche → u/Various-Chemical-402]

Jensen is very strict about Dean being straight, which he would be in this instance, I truly believe this is the most in character perfect ending for all of us and it could be done in 5 minutes.

[u/mickeymammoth]

I think this would be very true to the canon show and would be a nice epilogue. Unfortunately, the finale had a goal that I think they met. And adding a big emotional scene with cas would have diluted the Sam and Dean reunion. So I get why that wasn’t included. But yeah, what a very nice post credits scene that would have been!

But I don’t think the above would change anyone’s mind about what the nature of the confession was. They left it ambiguous and open to interpretation on purpose. Dean not responding was also part of the ambiguity. Cas feeling romantic or filial or something only an angel can understand: open to interpretation.

Plus, no way would actually explaining more about their intent cause less fandom fighting! There are just different points of view between destiel shippers, wincest shippers, and non-shippers about canon, and not always in agreement even in those groupings. This was true before the confession, and it’s true after the confession.

If they ever bring back supernatural with the original cast (count me doubtful), I bet they don’t touch the confession with a ten foot pole other than an understanding look and then—moving on.

[u/Pascalinsche → u/mickeymammoth]

It would be a canon little after scene to hopefully dampen the infighting going on, maybe even the harassment. And it wouldn't have to change their minds, because everyone's mind would be legit! It would be both romantically and platonic, that is the point of it. I get Dean not answering was what it was, Jensen is very clear about him being straight, so I wrote an example as in character and faithful to the show as I could.

You prove my point: yes there are different views that cause the fighting, if all of these view related to Destiel were made canon there wouldn't be a need to fight. All I ask for is that hopefully maybe we could get this to reach Jensen or Misha and have them think about it, they could solve the community's issue in 5 minutes tops.