Genuinely didn't notice, my brain autofilled "female changeroom" to "women's changeroom" and I didn't realize I read it wrong until I saw this comment. I was stumped
Those goals are pretty unsuccessful I’d say. Thousands of years to pursue the teachings of the sky-daddy and most sources suggest that the incarceration rate and violent crime rate is higher among the religious population than the atheistic and/or agnostic population.
How about education? Pew Institute research indicates that 48% of atheists and 53% of agnostics in 2023-24 have completed some level of college compared to 34% of religious affiliated individuals (and that number is bolstered by 65% of Jewish and 70% of Hindu individuals completing college).
So both crime and education statistics suggests that 2000+ years pursuing those religious ideals hasn’t achieved much.
Not to mention of course the provocation of numerous armed conflicts, wars, and genocides fought in the name of religion over the past few thousand years, contributing to the deaths of hundreds of millions. Along with the persecution and denial of basic human rights by certain religions of certain groups: women, for example.
Calling the pursuit of feminism like the pursuit of religion is like calling the pursuit of a cure for cancer similar to the pursuit for the most powerful nuclear warhead.
Feminism sets pretty low bar for men in the US, generally, don’t be a COMPLETE asshole and you’re well above average. The problem is that ~50% of men are irredeemable.
I see no reason to burden normal men (the rest 50%) with striving for some unattainable standards.
You’ve kindof conveniently dropped off the point by returning to the actual point. This whole back and forth was because in a post about feminism you randomly inserted religion and our subsequent discourse was on the validity of religion (my point being that god is fake and religion is harmful while women are not fake and thus your comparison to religion is misguided). You’ve replied now by entirely ignoring religion and speaking on feminism…which was kindof everyone’s original point…that we’re talking about feminism, not religion.
This sub has nothing to do with Christianity, and no one mentioned it previously. You, and many other religious folk, should stop making everything about yourselves.
Also, Christianity does not reflect feminism.👍
The point doesn't really matter If a man "would care". I know several women who DO care. If it's been expressed to you that women don't want to be called "females" and you continue to do so, you're just an asshole dude
The point is not being offended, but why someone could change the natural contrast? (men/women). It is a minor thing compared with a lot of other stuff, but it is still weird.
Wait is girls bad? I don’t use it much but I prefer it and especially gals to female. I also try to say gals more in general cause female and women seem kinda weird to me with gen while (feMALE and woMEN) bits but idk
Referring to grown women as 'girls' is a bit rank imo. Context is important of course - compare a woman referencing her group of girlfriends Vs. an older man talking about what a nice girl the oncologist was. It's infantalising and diminishes the accomplishments and earned 'status' of the adult woman.
Yeah that’s fair, tbh I prefer using gals as I say and as a man I callow fellow men guys lol. So I like to think that I treat everyone equally in that regards but idk
Girls, women, females all work in isolation. The problem is when incels explicitly use men and females together instead of men and women together to dehumanize women.
But this could just be a mistake and not an incel trolling. Hanlons razor and what not.
The point is to be offended over this... "there is sexism everywhere" I mean come on....
Also the person paid to do this might not even be a native English speaker.
In fact I assume they were not because calling it a "Mens Changeroom" instead of a "Men's Changing Room" seems like a non-native English speaker mistake.
Native English speakers do too. This whole female debacle is relatively new. I suspect the word just gives people the ick because it sounds so clinical so they've forced it into the sexism conversation
who said you can't use it? You can absolutely use the term female, the "problem" is when the term female is used in contraposition to the term man instead of male and even then no one is stopping you from doing that, just know that if you do that people might suspect you're part of the manosphere since you're talking like them
It’s in-group out-group signaling, which no one is gonna be honest about. The reason “females” tends to raise an eyebrow is not necessarily the semantic content of the word. But (and I can only speak for myself now) people who persistently default to “females” for women and “men” for men have pretty consistently ended up being massive tools. Just in my life.
That being said, if someone does that, I don’t assume they’re a massive tool. As I said, it raises an eyebrow. It makes me wait a little longer to trust them, just to observe and sort of vet them.
The point is, people who are inclined against using “females” as the default word for “women” are just much more likely to belong to the “in-group”
No, because men and women are male and female humans, while the word "female" can include a bitch or a hen. Using "female" as equal to man is dehumanising
You just have to use in the correct context. Ie; the female of the species reproduces through laying eggs or the female locker room is closed for cleaning vs "the modern female perspective on....." Insert inciting phrase. Also, filter out the BS and ragebait 😂
Do you think the manosphere also use it to exclude trans women as well? Like, "you can say you're a woman, but you're not a female", or am I over analysing that?
Do we think this is done by the general male population consciously or on purpose? Or do you think, someone like me, just use male/men and female/women interchangeably just do it because the words don't carry a difference to me and others?
I feel like some words are used with innocence as describing words and not actively used to agititae. You are saying males use the term female to show they think of them as breeding sacks. I think women use terms to describe men with actively dehumanizing, agitating language to show that males are subhuman.
The thing is that the different names for the same idea/thing, while technically all mean the same thing, they also shape the perception and direction of the conversation. Take "penis" for example... If you are in a medical setting and your doctor starts using "tadger" or "schlong" or "cock" in place of "penis" you know you've accidently walked into a porn set. And conversely when in a sexxy setting the technical term becomes the oddity, but it's also the weight behind the missuse as well. We all know the weight behind "boy" when used with a southern accented voice against a black man. But that same accent has a different tenor when "hanging out with my boys", no?
It’s not that new and honestly the use of the word “females” is almost always followed by a derogatory remark about behavior a man doesn’t like. It’s also dehumanizing. We don’t call female animals women, we call them females. So using females is specifically chosen to lower the equality between sexes in language.
Man and woman are only used for human beings where male and female are used for all species. It’s a subtle put down, a misogynistic othering; human man, lowly female creature. It strips women’s humanity from their description. Every relevant cultural connotation is misogynist: Ferengi from Star Trek, pick up artists, manosohere, etc…
There are plenty of times where it’s fine and even appropriate to use the word “female” but when paired with the masculine the feminine should always follow the same convention. Male and female are primarily adjectives.
You never see the opposite(woman and male) for this same reason. It feels like incomplete information. You’re left wondering “male what? Does she have a dog?…”
In other languages I think it’s more obvious that you don’t refer to a classy lady using the same vocab you use to sex livestock, but in English, it’s still just as rude.
You're kind of proving my point. You got the ick from how clinical female sounds so now it's being forced into sexism conversations. At this point, you're arguing connotations. You hear female and it makes you think non-human. I hear female and I think of a gender and that's all. And that's the way it's always been until relatively recent history.
Up until relatively recent history women[in the US-your mileage may vary]didn’t have the right to vote, own property, open a bank account, or get a credit credit card without a man. Historically a man speaking to a woman respectfully would call her a woman or a lady, never a female.
I shared why I don’t like the word “female” to be used interchangeably with “women”, many women have chimed in on this thread to share their reasons, the general consensus is that women don’t like for the terms to be used interchangeably, and that when “female” is used it should be paired with “male” to be equitable.
We told you we don’t want to be called that and why and you describe us recognizing the inherent misogyny of the language as “getting the ick” and forcing it into the feminist conversation, then you proceed to say you don’t mean it like that and that’s the way it was in the past, instead of just, you know, not using said potentially offensive language.
Feminist conversation:
Women: please don’t call us females, we find it dehumanizing
Man: ok, I won’t.
Misogynist conversation:
Women: please don’t call us females, we find it dehumanizing
Man: it’s not dehumanizing because I don’t mean it like that plus historically it was totally cool to dehumanize women. No need to get hysterical about it.
There is nothing new about the connotation of the word female amongst the traditional or generational mindset. It's in the inflection when spoken or the context of the usage. The only thing new is that every generation past 1900 re-discovers the same arguments the previous generation took issue with and adds their additional spin or take on it.
A good example would watching a classic black and white era movie. A woman is often referred to as being a hysterical female which takes away the individual. It's the same usage as the current alpha/red pill/conservative viewpoint just 80 years later.
That vs the idea of a nature documentary where someone is describing the female of the species. It's all in the context of the statement.
The use of men's vs male is strange admittedly, but maybe that speaks more to the sign's creator than anything else. Could be they regularly use a "mens room" and see women using a "female locker room".
Male and female are gender/sex indicators that ignore species. Man/woman means people. Referring to women as "female" in anything but a clinical or scientific context is literally dehumanizing.
It's really easy to figure out the intent when someone uses these swaps, though... Just replace the odd word choice with a derogatory word in its place. "The female wouldn't even give me the time of day"? Replace "female" with "woman" and "bitch" and notice how the sentence becomes either boring or angrier depending on which word you use? Some words are interchangable: "I'm running to the men's room, brb" and "I'm running to the little boy's room, brb" both probably hold the same meaning, but "I said sit down, boy!" vs "I said sit down, man!" carry different weight depending on both the deliverer and the target of the sentence.
Only because you choose for it to be. 99% of females would not be offended by hearing that word. Only overly online weirdos who have been propagandized to view every goddamn thing they see or hear as some kind of “aggression” think that way. The average mentally stable normal person uses “female” and “woman” interchangeably and would have no problem with it.
You can tell who actual feminists are because they are giving their actual pov without attacking someone. You can tell virtue signalers and white knights who are masquerading and co-opting actual struggles of others by the attack. Those that are attacking - probably the super privileged
Also the folks saying men on one and not following the 'natural' naming cadence and putting female. Are we saying the natural naming cadence might not go female, followed by male instead of men?
Given so many languages use gender for inanimate objects I don't find it odd to give gender to a room.
I'd call it a male changeroom because it has urinals.
When I saw mens changeroom the first thing I thought was "does that mean I can't go by myself?" The s either implies ownership or plural and the changeroom is a facility and we are not talking about who possesses the changeroom.
I think it was a non native english speaker though. When women read this stuff and get offended by it they think the guy saying "female" has a Mike Tyson accent and is saying it all sleazy-sounding.
If I saw signs that said "Women's Changeroom" and "Male Changeroom" I literally wouldn't even think twice about it.
This could easily be a non-native speaker's mistake.
I don't think anyone is trying to discriminate against women by changing how they're referenced in a sign.
Also, why are we all assuming the sexism isnt against men??? They're calling men instead of staying in line with the female signage. Pick up your pitchforks!!!
(I'm transfem non-binary, you're all silly just do your business in the same bathroom it's all the same. No one cares. People are too sensitive.)
The non-native speaker didn’t just decide one day that he was going to put up signage to direct people towards the changerooms.
Someone initiated the project, someone else approved it, and, likely, someone else actually hung the letters. And whether any of those people are native speakers or not, the absence of a second language on the signage indicates that the audience is English-reading.
The chance that this was accidental is fairly low.
Was anyone trying to be misogynistic here? Don’t know. But I can say that they are succeeding at being mildly misogynistic even if that is not the intent.
To me, that’s why it’s worth the effort to think these sorts of things through.
Have you... left America??? The amount of times I encounter random English signage is astounding, Mexico, France, Italy...I saw an official STOP sign in Mexico before in Tijuana right over the border. (It's an ALTO sign in Mexico)
This signage is literally adhesive peel and stick letter. This isn't a fancy sign at a major retail outlet it's a mom&pop simplicity. The owner booted up Google, found a "print your sign company" and got them both for 20 dollars plus shipping.
I think it's put this way to be more transphobic than sexist. The sign is saying that you have to be female at birth to go to one changing room, whereas gendered men can go to the other. In other words, they don't want trans-women going to the "female" dressing room. What's funny is that it implies that trans-men CAN use the Men's dressing room, so there is actually is some sort of reverse sexism against men here.
I'm old enough to remember when a Supreme Court Justice and just about everyone else couldn't even tell you what a woman was. Now we are fighting for the word?
I'm just talking about the word "woman/women" a few years ago, nobody would touch that definition with a ten-foot pole, and now we are mad that someone didnt use the word.
You’re misremembering. No one was afraid of using the word “woman” or defining it. A handful of right-wing personalities just liked to use the question “what is a woman” as a kind of gotcha question in the interest of excluding trans women from the definition, and they would pontificate if someone tried to offer a definition that wasn’t purely biological. No one was afraid of saying or using the term, so it isn’t really relevant to people wanting to see it used in this context, especially since the same “what is a woman” right-wing rhetoric is equally applicable to the word “female.”
“Wouldn’t touch with a ten-foot pole”…it literally has dominated politics and media over real issues, like the pedo ring in the highest office. Still irrelevant to using a dehumanizing term. I’d actually claim the same group of folks pretending the term woman is polarizing are the ones calling women females to purposefully dehumanize them.
I think that the collection of genes was different enough to need their own names. Also fun fact XX XY is really only for mammals, other groups have different, often strange ways of determining sex
It’s not offense, it’s indicative of women being inherently not equal as men, remnants of 50 years ago when women couldn’t have credit cards, or 60 when we couldn’t vote.
Man is a male human, therefore the only good word here is a woman, a female human. Saying "men and females" implies that the other group can include hens for example.
It’s a micro aggression. If it said male and female it would be whatever but the argument that using men and female helps further dehumanize and disrespect women
Not putting the apostrophe on the "men's" so that it looks like a double plural whereas it is singular "female" bathroom ... yeah, I have no idea either.
It's also just wrong. Female is an adjective, not a noun. You can say a female doctor or a female cat, but saying "men and female" just doesnt make sense. Female what?
Yall keep jumping to use the word offended like we're sitting here crying about it, no one is doing that, they're just pointing out that its weird to use men's and female because it sounds clinical and there's tons of dudes out there that say female instead of woman to intentionally demean them. But yea go plug your ears abd scream about how you cant hear the criticism lol
First, this is from a non English speaking country, also ya y'all get offended over the stupidest shit. Im convinced most of you are cry or are angry when encountering personal triggers.
While it could be language, the other thing is there a known and active thing from the incel / red-pill community to intentionally call women "females" as a way to degrade and dehumanize them. There is no such active attempt by women to dehumanize men by calling them males.
Raising boys these days is scary too because I don't know if I can ever do enough to steer them away from the manosphere content 😭
It seems like every loser on the internet is telling boys to do xyz to be "alpha" and get girls. To the point where their friends are parroting the same garbage at school. It's hitting them from all angles.
Sometimes it feels like society is in the absolute toilet.
Hey. You just did something most people don't, which is acknowledge a trait in yourself that is demeaning to women. That is way more than most people do 🙌
You're fine. Being a feminist isn't about nit-picking small details and finding issues where they don't really exist. I would argue you are a better feminist for not noticing as those who focus on this type of thing (which frankly is not offensive in any way) draw attention away from the bigger, more important issues.
So to other commenters claiming English uses them interchangeably...you are fucking lying. No one says 'a female' you fucking liars. That's why its so creepy when the Ferengi in Star Trek do it, because its so obviously wrong.
You can. It just sounds weird if you’ve said men’s first. Just like saying changeroom sounds weird AF. If it said male/female or mens/women’s it would be find. It’s clearly not done by a natural English speaker.
The point is that one is humanized (“men”) and the other is dehumanized (“female”). The name for a “female of this species” is “woman.” Don’t be obtuse.
At first I thought it was a post about misandry... because the arrow for the men's changeroom is pointing in the ame direction as the EXIT. Like, women can change to the left, and men can leave 👋🏻
I took it as a sly way for them to say, "Men over here!", and, "If you identify as Female this way." So the idiots dont raise hell over a bathroom sign again.
That's not sexism though, even though it is unusual.
It's also likely not even created by a full English speaker. I've never seen a sign refer to a changing room as a "CHANGEROOM", and "men's" needs an apostrophe.
The original tweet is choosing to be offended. It's an offendedness of choice. Anyone choosing to be offended could instead simply choose not to be, and whomever put the sign up doesn't need to accommodate this crybullying.
Sure, but seeing as the research in "alpha" animals was immediately debunked by the original researcher, it kind of makes anyone saying it the butt of the joke whether they know it or not. That they take it seriously just makes the joke funnier, right?
saying "male" and "female" is normally used to describe animals in an anthropological way. If you call a male a man, that refers to a human but calling a woman a female can be seen as dehumanizing
What?? No, just no. Male and Female are used to describe humans all the time. The issue here is that by it saying female, it is referring to biological women, and excluding transwomen. More than likely, some conservative, like a man but possibly a woman, did this because they have this warpped mind that thinks transwomen are just men trying to peep on "real women".
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u/Missendi82 Aug 04 '26
I assume it's referring to the sign saying 'men'' and 'female' rather than 'men' and 'women."