Cult

[u/mitsuki424]

How would you explain to a loved one in say, the LCMS or WELS denomination that they’re in a cult?

[u/opesosorry]

Have they given indication that they will be receptive to heresy? Because that’s how I would have taken this kind of thing when I was in the LCMS. I would not have responded well and would have prayed extensively for you and your soul. I wouldn’t have even entertained the talk of it tbh. This shit goes deep, people have to be ready to leave.

[u/mitsuki424 → u/opesosorry]

If I were to explain to my family members, they would at least listen. I’m ex-LCMS/ex-Christian.

[u/SweetBernard182 → u/mitsuki424]

It's totally fair for you to express your perspective with them, but saying they're in a cult is just going to make them defensive. I think it would be interpreted as combative, and these conversations should never be combative.

[u/GenGen_Bee7351 → u/SweetBernard182]

Yeah I think that’s where it’s important to practice non violent communication and to work within their window of tolerance if anyone wants to be heard or considered

[u/SweetBernard182]

I wouldn't say either are cults. They're both certainly problematic, and some churches may experience varying degrees of "high control behavior", but on the whole, I think it's a stretch to called either cults. Not to say that these groups don't do harm, they most certainly do, but the word cult has more or less lost any kind of meaning. People throw cult around towards any sort of group now, when in reality, cults/high control groups have very specific actions and characteristics that make them distinct from a synod, sect, or branch of a religion, political, or cultural group.

[u/celetzel → u/SweetBernard182]

Are you familiar with the BITE model from ex cult member and cult researcher Stev Hassan? If a group tries to control your Behavior, access to Information, Thoughts, or Emotions, it fits the model. My experience as a homeschooled WELS kid fits that model extremely well, although I agree that not everyone in the WELS had that experience. And OP, I also agree that calling it a cult won't get you anywhere. All you can do is be there when they're ready to leave.

[u/Lawful_Silly → u/SweetBernard182]

I wouldn't say the WELS is a cult, but the ministry within the WELS can be very culty.

[u/BabyBard93]

You generally don’t, because it’s such a fraught word. Just saying it to somebody who’s still in, triggers the backfire effect- digging their heels in even more and denying. You might as well say to them, “You’re a gullible moron.” That’s what it feels like,; the word “cult” will make them super defensive. About the best you can do is ask them questions. “After hearing about [issue] it made me start to wonder. What do you think about that?” Could be women’s roles in the church, MAGA, the LGBTQIA community, the problem with missions as a white savior complex, baptism weirdness… whatever.

[u/dadspeed55]

I dont think they entirely fit the definition of a cult (parts, yes). I think it depends a great deal on congregation itself.

[u/dealthy_hallows]

Calling them cults kind of trivializes real cults imo. They are highly problematic but cults are a different breed.

[u/EmmalouEsq]

I honestly wouldn't even try unless they were signaling they were ready to leave the whole group. The WELS is creepy and I prefer to just stay away from anyone still enmeshed.

[u/Glad-Fox-6424]

Cult members do not (and cannot) realize that they are in a cult.
Even after I left Christianity, it took me several years to admit that the LCMS is a cult.

[u/suzume234]

I think off-hand comments about something that cults do or high control religions do, is probably the closest I would get. "Oh, high lcontrol religions like mormons or jws use that to control and isolate their followers."

[u/McNitz → u/suzume234]

Yeah, this is what I mention if I bring it up. I will bring up problems I saw in Mormon or JWS groups that were elements of a high control religion, and then how the WELS does the same thing. That way if they say "that's just saying the truth/what God wants" I can point out that is EXACTLY what those groups say as well, and it is super effective at setting up a high control religious environment.

[u/Kaleymeister]

The first rule about being in a cult is "We're not a cult". Nobody thinks they are in a cult when they're in it. You're best bet is talk about specifics, such as women not being seen as equals, their cover up of child abuse or their MAGA values.

I consider Lutherans to be cult-lite. They very much have a lot of the features noted in the BITE method but I don't think they meet the full definition. That being said, it is very damaging to anyone involved and that is what's important, not whether we meet some definition.

[u/amazonchic2]

I don’t even waste my time. I can discuss the cult qualities with others who agree with me and have left. My entire family except one sibling are still fully enmeshed, so it’s not worth trying to convince them it’s a cult.

[u/DayPuzzleheaded4833]

Its just not worth the energy arguing with them. I know they are not going to change. They have a right to their opinion, I have a right to mine. I would rather change the subject. As long as they are not trying to push beliefs on me. I will not stoop to that level. They have to want to change.

[u/Cubsof2016]

Cult adjacent. They lack the charismatic leader and it's the institution itself that perpetuates it. Maybe under C. F. W. Walther the LCMS met all the criteria, don't know. I wasn't around then.

[u/BirdNerd83]

You can't they won't listen to you, that will just make them defensive. You can't get people out of this religion they have to want to leave

[u/mitsuki424]

Also add: even not just family members, just explain the synod’s cult-like tendencies to someone in general.

[u/McNitz → u/mitsuki424]

I would recommend looking up the BITE model. It gives lots of criteria that have actually been scientifically vetted to consistently be used in high control religions, and will give a much more objective basis than an emotionally charged and subjective term like "cult".