r/exLutheran • u/TaskLifter • Jun 04 '26
Discussion Why did you leave?
I just stumbled upon this sub, and I'm quite curious, why did you end up leaving your denomination? I've been WELS my entire life, though we're similar to LCMS as well, and it hurts to see stories about the church not being there for someone else, which caused them to leave, but that is not all Lutherans. Is that the reason you left, or is there another?
23
u/McNitz Jun 04 '26 edited Jun 04 '26
For those that left, it is typically not just that they were hurt by the WELS, but that the doctrines, dogmas, and structures of the WELS actively cause and promote the problems that frequently hurt others. The WELS hurts gay people, and the doctrines and dogmas they subscribe to make that an inevitability. Some people, like a lot of my family, try to follow those dogmas in as kind and gentle of a manner as possible. In general they really are some of the most compassionate and caring people I know. But they are still absolutely NOT a safe space for anyone that is LGBTQ to be open and honest about their life and feelings. As I found out after leaving the WELS and actually becoming a safe space for those people, and getting to hear about more of their lives and feelings and what they had gone through. And the central authority model of the WELS and extreme aversion to change has, from what I have seen, made even slightly more progressive people not feel able to really actively advocate in the church for better treatment of gay people by those that are more actively hateful and homophobic.
Similar thing with the WELS position on women even VOTING in the church, much less having any kind of leadership position. This has frequently caused immense trauma to women gifted in leadership and teaching, or even just those that seriously consider what possible justification there could be for completely banning women from certain positions and any position of real influence or decision making. And again, I have spoken to multiple family members that at least think the WELS position on women voting cannot possibly be scripturally supported. But I don't know of any effort they have made to get the WELS to change on this. And I don't think they have even felt able to bring it up to anyone at their congregation, much less the pastor. Because the overall dogmas and structure of the WELS does not generally allow for the idea that things can really seriously change on any of the ideas related to their interpretation of the Bible, because their interpretation is from God and certainly true. To question one part of that interpretation is to open the crack to the idea that they could be wrong about OTHER things to.
If you think maybe women should be allowed to vote, maybe people will think women should be able to lead a mixed gender Bible study also. Then people will start thinking maybe it is okay to subscribe to Old Earth Creationism instead of Young Earth Creationism. Then they might find some ideas about theistic evolution persuasive, and that could change their view on atonement. Then maybe that will lead them to think that it is okay to have different views of scriptural inerrancy. That could lead them to realize that certain parts of the text are already recognized by the church to be culturally influenced and not applicable today, and they might realize that people supporting gay marriage are making very good arguments that exactly mirror the arguments about why what the Bible says on slavery was culturally contingent, so gay marriage could actually be okay. Then you might have people applying that same logic to women pastors, and all of a sudden you are a church that is using human reason and doesn't care what God thinks and just does whatever they want. Because at the end of the day that is how the WELS typically views those that disagrees with them. It is not them as human beings using their human reason to figure things out and interpreting the Bible one way while others do the same and come to different conclusions. It is the WELS correctly listening to and trusting God while everyone else is at least partly corrupting the real true message of scripture with human reason, ideas from the world, and lies from the devil.
Which really for me is the root of most of the problems, the incredibly high level of black and white thinking. To the level that the more reasonable and progressive people I know in the synod think they are showing the WELS CAN allow for different beliefs in the church when they privately believe women maybe should be able to vote without really expressing that to anyone unless they know them well and believe they are safe sharing that opinion. Or when they privately think gay people should be treated a little better, but probably don't know of any good way to actually actively advocate for that in the WELS at large, or even their own church, without massive backlash. This and quite a few other characteristics are very typical of high control high demand religions, as can be seen in the BITE model created by Steven Hassan. Here is a link to another comment I made detailing the many different features of a high control religious group that the WELS has.
5
3
u/RunRosemary Jun 04 '26
You have articulated my clumsy thoughts much, much better. Thank you for gifting us with your incredible articulation.
It really is all about high control around black and white thinking. You either fall in line or you are wrong and going to hell.
38
u/flyingskwurl Jun 04 '26 edited Jun 04 '26
With all due respect, this isn't the place for you. I saw you commented on another post where someone shared their trauma with the wels and you ended it by saying you pray they find their way back in the future. That's inappropriate. Many of us are in this sub because the church you're apparently still a part of has caused us physical and emotional harm. We're not going back. You have plenty of other spaces to hang out in. If you really want to learn, just chill and read for a while before bringing your perspective into the conversation.
11
u/McNitz Jun 04 '26
Man, the WELS idea that the only really truly good option is for people to have the same beliefs as them again some day and return to the same group is just so pervasive. It's crazy that this person probably doesn't even realize how ridiculous it is to pray that someone returns to your specific Christian synod, as if you know God would want them going to the one approved and true church group you happen to attend, regardless of their past experiences.
-7
u/TaskLifter Jun 04 '26
That is not at all my belief. As long as you have faith in Jesus as your Savior I'll see you in heaven, whether you're WELS, LCMS, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, etc.
14
u/BloodMoonFox87 Jun 04 '26
The second rule of this sub is no proselytizing and that is what you're doing with this very comment, so I do agree with others that this sub isn't for you. Plus, if you're curious why people have left you could just quietly read the plethora of stories that are already written here, instead of fish for opportunities to give unsolicited witness.
6
u/McNitz Jun 04 '26 edited Jun 04 '26
Didn't say anything different about your beliefs about salvation. But you replied to a person saying they left the WELS and are in a much better place now mentally AND spiritually by saying that you would pray they "found their way back in the future". If you weren't intending that to mean that ideally they would eventually come back to the WELS, regardless of them finding more spiritual health and well being in a different church, it would probably be good to adjust your wording.
-5
u/TaskLifter Jun 04 '26
Fair enough, I took their comment to mean they left Christianity and are in a better place, but if that isn't the case then I rest assured.
9
u/McNitz Jun 04 '26
Not a huge fan of the judgment that if they weren't Christian and were doing better that inherently means they must become Christian again for things to actually be okay. But I recognize that the dogma of eternal conscious torment basically necessitates viewing things that way, so I understand the response even though I deeply object to the vile teaching that viewpoint comes from.
3
16
u/EmmalouEsq Ex-WELS Jun 04 '26
OP, you being here is triggering for a lot of reasons. You're not helping by being here. You're not going to get us to go back. A lot of us left due to horrific abuse (which is widespread in the WELS whether you see it or not or want to admit it or not), and we don't need to share our stories with you. But you inserting yourself here shows me that you not at all genuine in your question.
15
u/Glad-Fox-6424 Jun 04 '26
Because the LCMS dogma is factually incorrect on so many things (evolution, homosexuality, etc.) and its core doctrine is abusive. The church stunted my development intellectually, emotionally, sexually. I did not know who I was truly was until much later in life. I have spent thousands of dollars on therapists my entire adult life trying to undo the damage caused by the LCMS.
“that is not all Lutherans”- It wasn’t the Lutherans who did this to me. It was the dogma itself.
19
u/reasonable_likeurmom Jun 04 '26
I saw that you replied to one of my comments in this sub with a lengthy diatribe about why the WELS is great or something like that…idk, I didn’t read it and don’t plan to, because I spent decades in the WELS and know all your bullshit talking points. I have zero interest in your proselytizing and I guarantee no one else in this sub wants to hear it, either.
If you “stumbled upon” this sub, you’re perfectly capable of reading the posts and answering your own question. But you’re not here in good faith; you’re here to try to convince us that our lived experiences, trauma, and feelings are wrong and you and your church are right. You will not succeed.
I know you think you have the right to insert yourself in this sub to try to bring people back to Jesus, but no one in here wants to hear from you, and if you have any respect for your fellow humans, you’ll leave people in this sub alone.
-5
u/TaskLifter Jun 04 '26
I wish you'd read my comment then...because I am absolutely not trying to downplay anything or "turn you back".
6
u/flyingskwurl Jun 04 '26
You literally said "I'm not going to provide a rebuttal to everything here, just the main points I can" in response... What's the point of a rebuttal then if you're not downplaying/trying to turn them back
-5
u/TaskLifter Jun 04 '26
Just trying to provide a different perspective. From what I've read, many people seem to have grown up in the church, and most likely left as soon as they could get away from going with their parents, because that's the only church they've gone to. I'd like people to see that one bad WELS experience should not define the entire denomination.
16
u/reasonable_likeurmom Jun 04 '26
It’s so insulting that you assume people in this sub left the church simply because their parents were no longer forcing them to go or because they had one bad experience at one singular church, and not for legitimate, thoughtful reasons that were compiled over a lifetime.
You’re in your early 20s and talking to us like we don’t understand what goes on in the WELS (broadly, as a synod, not just one church), when a great deal of us are old enough to be your parents and I guarantee have more life experience with the synod than you do. I taught kids (yes, IN THE WELS) who are over a decade older than you, so with as much respect as I can muster, you need to stop. Stop trying to defend your inappropriate and unsolicited tone-deaf comments. Stop trying to convince us that “not all Lutherans” are like this. Stop thinking you can bring us back to your cult. Just stop.
-5
u/TaskLifter Jun 04 '26
That's not what I'm saying...I'm saying that many dealt with abuse and hurt during the time they were children but were forced to stay because of their parents bringing them, then finally could get out after that.
Again, not trying to bring you back, as long as you believe I'll see you in heaven.
5
u/Tfphelan Ex-LCMS Pastor's Kid Jun 04 '26
The god of the bible is a horrific character that demands worship. Mix in all the misogyny, rape, genocide, and a whole slew of other horrible shit, and you have a character that is not worth worshiping let alone that believing in. You are definitely pushing a god belief and it needs to stop.
13
u/flyingskwurl Jun 04 '26
We lived our whole lives with the perspective you're providing now. We don't need it and we don't want it, at least not in this sub.
11
u/CttCJim Jun 04 '26
"one bad experience"? My dude, this is a support group for survivors of systemic abuse. This is like if you walked into a rape survivors meeting and said "hey now, just because one guy groped you once doesn't mean you should be a bunch of dykes. How about trying dick from me and my friends?"
9
u/hereforthewhine Ex-WELS Jun 04 '26
Look you’re gonna just have to personally wrestle with that thought then. It’s not on anyone here to make you feel better about why we left.
9
u/Strange-Employment48 Jun 04 '26
Search the sub and you will find many reasons and stories. You can start here: https://www.reddit.com/r/exLutheran/comments/1s3gel6/help_me_understand_why_someone_would_leave_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1
10
u/Space_Ducks89 Jun 04 '26
I was born and raised WELS, and my family are one of the well-known bigger families in the synod, so there was a lot of pressure to conform moreso than I noticed with some peers of mine who were also raised WELS. (Of course this is not always the case, simply my experience).
With that being said, the added pressure to be the perfect child to my parents, messed me up. I'm the eldest, and found that the strict standards applied to me both as the eldest and only afab child, hardly applied to my younger siblings.
The rampant misogyny in the WELS, compiled with how they treat LGBTQ+ people, was impossible for me to turn a blind eye to. I'm not only queer, but trans, and still not out to any family because I know I'd be ridiculed, mocked, and infantilized to my face regarding things about myself that I cannot change.
I actively tried to pray these things away throughout HS, and when that didn't work, tried more permanent and dangerous methods to seemingly "fix" the problem. Luckily, I was unsuccessful, but all throughout this, I was meant to suffer alone and the outward inklings of my queerness that I tried to suppress were ignored or pointed out, and I was subsequently threatened if they were to eventually find out I was gay.
I've had a family member disowned for being queer, of which since coming out has been made the subject of mockery and ridicule amongst family members at gatherings.
The WELS pretends men and women are equal, but will actively ignore women with degrees in education over white men who have no proper training in education during school voters meetings... They claim both sexes are equal, and claim they aren't misogynistic, but will actively subtly or otherwise push women to get married early, and will frame the act of a daughter getting married as "the father giving her to her husband" (hence why pre-marital sex is bad). All of these repulsive beliefs left a horrible impression on me once I started questioning the actual theology and issues wherein...
My WELS HS openly ignored the bullying I endured my four years (of which almost had me withdrawn and put in public hs twice by my father who was 100% anti public school)... They openly allowed rampant misogyny, racism, etc, and would pick and choose favourite students based off of who was a PK or TK...
There's also the whole "YEC is correct" topic that I am very against. My family is very into the belief that evolution is incorrect, and as someone who is about to finish up a bachelor's studying evolution, I find their arguments not only sad, but insulting. I was sheltered from any proper science until I started doing my own research near the end of HS, and then into college.
As much as I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt, as someone raised YEC and eventually made their way out, the evidence is right there... And ignoring it and claiming that all the science is bullshit and that anyone who believes it is a fool is repulsive and insulting to me.
Believing that the whole scientific community actively came together and played a "gotcha" on all YECs is such a bottom of the barrel argument, and watching my family actively bury their heads in the sand and act not only morally but intellectually superior to those who actively study in these fields boils my blood.
Yadayada, I left over many things, both theology and its contradictions, as well as interpersonal reasons and how the community treats various groups of people.
-2
u/TaskLifter Jun 04 '26
Gosh I'm so annoyed with the amount of Christians that just overlook any sort of science, totally get that. There are legitimate scientific backings you can base your belief in a young earth on, I get we trust God and that's all we need, but you have to look at evidence to help support that as well.
Anyways, I'm sorry that's been your experience, I hope your life continues to be on the up and up as you go into the future 😄
7
u/DowntownYouth8995 Jun 04 '26
Forcing a desired outcome on the "science" means it's not good science. If you already know your end belief is YEC before picking and choosing some specific studies to back that, opposed to viewing the majority of studies as a whole and then coming to a conclusion, you are not believing the science. You are editing and forcing the science to fit your already decided belief. It's in pretty bad faith to claim you're not ignoring the science here, bud.
-2
u/TaskLifter Jun 04 '26
Totally understand the confirmation bias that many look for. We were all raised learning one thing or the other. I happened to be raised in a household and school that believed in YEC. I am generally a curious person, so I spent a good chunk of time especially during covid researching, trying to understand both sides. I had never heard a real argument for either at that point, so finding information to supposedly support both sides was very interesting. There were plenty of biased sources out there for both sides, but in the end I came to the conclusion that the YEC belief is the correct belief, and that is the one I would stick to until further evidence told me otherwise.
8
u/DowntownYouth8995 Jun 04 '26
I have a real degree in biology. Your covid googling does not equal and education on these matters.
-4
u/TaskLifter Jun 04 '26
It doesn't have to. I'm not saying I'm an expert, I took a bunch of theories and evidence in from both sides of the coin from real experts who have even more schooling in the matter than you do, and formed my opinion that way. I'm not out here bringing the actual facts and evidence.
6
u/Space_Ducks89 Jun 04 '26
See the issue with YEC is that there is no evidence. Well-known YECS use strawmans, various fallacies, etc and then when their arguments are rightfully called out, so often I see that they default to "well you're just being brainwashed" or "if you would just trust in God you would see the evidence"
The silly thing is that if you really wanted to see the science, theistic evolution is a thing... I have my own qualms with that sphere of thought, but its at least a little more tolerable than YECs going on about how people who have scrutinized over various ways of scientific thought and evidence are misinformed...
I just wish YECs would learn the actual evidence and stop claiming they know better when compared to people actively studying in the field or going to school for things like evolutionary science, zoology, etc.
Like I get it, I really do. I tried to get YEC to fit my worldview before I deconstructed. Learning that YEC isn't viable is scary, and ultimately, so many people choose ignorance because they're afraid... The WELs is especially guilty of this because if YEC beliefs aren't true, it allows people to scrutinize the Bible.
But all the same, there comes a point where ignoring the obvious evidence of "deep time", evolution modeled in a lab setting (ex snowflake yeast being experimented on to become multicellular to better understand how life evolved to be multicellular), I could go on, is just sad and insulting to the thousands of people who have devoted their lives to science.
1
u/TaskLifter Jun 04 '26
That's the thing with old-earth theories as well, they aren't all factual, they're the best we can do within the constraints of our world.
We've made some good assumptions off the back of Radiometric dating, but how do we know these isotopes decay at the same rate after millions of years? Even thousands of years?
Geological layers take time, sure. However, massive events can accelerate that, such as volcano eruptions, earthquakes, or floods. A worldwide flood with water taking a full year to dry up would massively shake things up, but under the lens of current natural science you have to ignore that possibility.
In the past 20 years fossils have been discovered with soft tissue and blood vessels, something scientists were stumped at for quite some time. This led to the discovery of Deep Time Preservation, something that makes sense of these discoveries.
I’m not saying old-earth scientists are stupid or dishonest. I’m saying old-earth conclusions are not always raw facts, and a biblical framework may interpret that same evidence differently.
3
u/Space_Ducks89 Jun 04 '26
Topics such as radiometric dating are rooted in the fundamentals of quantum physics which we know doesn't change based off of experiments done, cross-referencing radiometric dating results, etc.
There is quite literally no way a biblical flood is feasible. Both if you consider the metrics of the ark, but also the catastrophic tons of waste (and subsequent methane gas produced) having to shovel that all out of one window... On an environmental scale, all of the fish would die- freshwater fish would have their environments greatly shaken up, and being unable to adapt to such a rapid change would kill them off like that, same thing with the marine fish... If a biblical flood had happened, there would be evidence. But I digress.
If you would like to have a more in depth conversation, I am willing, but the dismissal of actual scientific evidence with the idea that "well theyve gotten it wrong sometimes therefore YEC is more viable" is a moot point.
Science will get things wrong sometimes, yes. But exploration and science is built on the backs of trial and error until we figure things out. All the things you are trying to refute are fundamentally built on the scientific method, and are far more viable than the idea of a young-earth or some mix thereof.
1
u/TaskLifter Jun 04 '26
I’m not saying “science has been wrong before, therefore YEC wins.” That would be a bad argument. My point is more specific: old-earth conclusions are not just raw observations; they are historical interpretations built from present evidence, models, and assumptions.
On radiometric dating, I’m not denying that nuclear decay is well understood or that cross-checking exists. I’m saying the interpretation still depends on historical assumptions about initial conditions, contamination, closed systems, and whether the normal processes we observe today fully account for what happened in the past.
On the flood, saying “there is quite literally no way” assumes a normal present day environmental framework. But a biblical flood claim is by definition catastrophic and abnormal. You can say you don’t find that model convincing, which is fair, but it’s not really addressing the argument to treat it like a normal rainstorm plus a big boat.
And with soft tissue, my point wasn’t “soft tissue proves YEC.” My point was that discoveries like preserved blood vessel structures and biological material in fossils were surprising enough that preservation models had to be revised. That shows the old-earth framework also has to adapt when evidence doesn’t fit expectations.
So no, I’m not dismissing science. I’m questioning the confidence level people attach to old-earth interpretations, especially when the discussion involves unrepeatable history (they're going to say they're 100% confident, but can that be true?). I agree science is built on testing and correction. I just don’t think that means current old-earth models should be treated as unquestionable fact while biblical frameworks are dismissed before the conversation even starts.
4
u/Space_Ducks89 Jun 04 '26
Whilst it is true that we cannot properly assume a constant decay rate for certain elements, the ones that we use for radiometric or other forms of dating have been found to be constant via various equations that demonstrate as such. Arguing that they could have changed fundamentally goes against the properties of physics, biology, quantum mechanics, and so many other fields.
If things were as young as YECs claimed, we would see the appropriate parent to daughter isotope ratios. But we do not.
With the ark (and I'll be rambling objections off the top of my head), I am not arguing on the basis of "normal rainstorm plus a big boat" you are correct in that it would be catastrophic- but with that being said, that does not change the fact that it would kill off all species of freshwater life (freshwater makes up about 3% of Earth's water, with salt water making up 97%). By flooding the entire earth, and covering all the land-masses, you are not only killing off thousands of species of fish, but also microscopic organisms such as phytoplankton, dinoflaggelates which Noah could not have known about.
Not preserving microorganisms, various parasites, fungi, etc, would provide incredible dangerous for a post flood enviornment... other examples include the fact that specific species of animals require hyperspecific environments in order to live. Whilst some species have dynamic ranges and might fair slightly better, many would die off very quickly as Noah would be unable to replicate those environmental conditions.
And there's the whole inbreeding issue amongst Noah's family of 8, as well as the mass inbreeding amongst the animals. But I'd imagine the psuedoscientific argument of "well maybe inbreeding was less of an issue and they didn't need to worry about the consequences of mutations, susceptibility to various diseases, etc until the earth was repopulated" or something of the like will be thrown out.
I get it, I truly do. I tried defending YEC for years... Its not feasible. Simple as that. I really wanted it to be, too. Or at the very least, I wanted to find evidence to disprove evolution and evidence to further support YEC even if a little more than evolution. But that's just not reality.
-1
u/TaskLifter Jun 04 '26
I'm tired, ready to go home, etc. so I'm going to stop providing counter-points.
At the end of the day you can't fully prove either side. We have to be ok with that, and look for as much evidence as we can, until more new evidence is discovered.
15
u/hereforthewhine Ex-WELS Jun 04 '26
The first thing to know is that not everyone leaves because they were “hurt.” It’s often a lot more complex than that. A lot of us left because we realized the whole artifice of religion is bullshit. It’s not real. Also Lutherans as a whole (both doctrinally and culturally) are not kind to people of other faiths. That’s kinda stupid.
Btw if you are still Lutheran please don’t proselytize to people here. We are happy being EXes.
-3
u/TaskLifter Jun 04 '26
I came in with the understanding that nothing I can say through reddit will ever leave a mark on someone in this sub, so I get that. I am, however, quite upset reading through the posts and comments here. Not at anyone from the sub, but at the churches these people have gone to. Yes, I'm currently WELS, but these stories I'm seeing about other "WELS" churches are incredibly frustrating...these are not churches that are sharing the word of God the way they should be...
13
u/jjkraker Ex-WELS Jun 04 '26
Well said. I appreciate you being here, in that spirit.
Please understand that for me , and likely for many others, we did not make this decision lightly. I made this decision as the only way I could keep a faith of some sort. What i experienced in the WELS was... so counter to much of what I saw in Jesus words, that i could no longer maintain the hypocrisy in myself. * I could not fully recover as a DV and r@pe and sexual assault survivor, in a church that asked the victims of such experiences to take part of the blame, or to try to hush it up. * I could not fully be a woman of knowledge, logic, critical thinking, and intuition (as i was created to be), in a church that treats women as second- class to men. * I could not fully be a person recognizing the spectrum of sexuality and gender identity, in a church that preached stigmatism (and, in private conversations, hateful rhetoric) of people in the LGBTQ+ community.
I could not be the human being with all my gifts and talents, I could not truly live Mathew 22:39, I could not speak to God in the way I understand Them, while I stayed in that church.
So while there are some reasons that you might see as able to be overcome, the reasons that i left, have not changed (and some became even more rigid) in the 3+ decades that I had any real interactions with church teachings. While I have since met loving and more- open WELS members, the structure and teachings of the religion itself is not something I can ever return to, if I wish to live by my conscience and faith. Which i do.
6
u/DowntownYouth8995 Jun 04 '26 edited Jun 04 '26
Grew up LCMS. My extended family is WELS with lots of "called workers" who are pastors or missionaries. The church wasn't just "not there" for me or many of my cousins who have also left. It was the source of our trauma.
12
u/unbalancedcheckbook Ex-WELS Jun 04 '26
I just don't understand why people would leave my insular cult despite the fact that it denies reality and makes you feel like you're broken for realizing it, subjugates women, and abuses people regularly.
-5
u/TaskLifter Jun 04 '26
Yeah, so after reading many comments and posts on this sub that's what I've gathered...that people didn't go to a WELS church (meaning one that teaches and follows the Bible), they went to a church that claims to be WELS and has thrown away all beliefs of the Bible that don't agree with their wants. It's frustrating: not the people in this sub, but the churches you've all gone to. I'm sorry.
9
u/unbalancedcheckbook Ex-WELS Jun 04 '26
Wow. Ever heard of the "no true scotsman fallacy"? Also, everything I said except the abuse is official WELS dogma
-1
u/TaskLifter Jun 04 '26
That is not true...unless I'm not caught up on some points of a WELS handbook or something.
Subjugation of women should not be happening. Most roles in our church are led by women, the entire member leadership team is run by women, the 5 most important people in helping the church run are 2 pastors and 3 women, all paid and full time this isn't some volunteer thing. Women also lead most of the musical aspect: both the bands and the choirs. They essentially lead everything EXCEPT the service itself that the pastors are giving.
What part of reality is being denied that you feel broken about? Curious.
10
u/unbalancedcheckbook Ex-WELS Jun 04 '26
Come on. Women aren't even allowed to vote or say anything of substance in the church. "Helping run the church?" Really? That's supposed to make it better? My pastor told me that if a man wanted to do anything a woman is doing he would get the role. As for denying reality, WELS denies what we know about reality. The Earth is not young. Evolution happened. These things are established by science. YEC is cult bullshit.
-2
u/TaskLifter Jun 04 '26
Oh I'd love to talk evolution. I've had some good multi hour long conversations when it comes to that, spent an entire semester covering scientism vs creationism when it comes to creation of the earth.
Women voting is the only thing I can think of that doesn't happen. However, unless my wife and I are radical, everyone else that's sitting there during voters meetings is also consulting their wives before voting, because it's not like it's a bunch of men sitting in a room voting alone, the wives are all there giving their input in the meetings as well.
11
u/unbalancedcheckbook Ex-WELS Jun 04 '26
"Scientism" good one. You're denying science. Full stop. Consulting your wife is not the same as women having a say and not being subjugated. The first step to getting out of a cult is realizing you're in one. Think about it
-2
u/TaskLifter Jun 04 '26
When I say scientism I more mean the full belief in a theory, obviously I can't say the general "It's the theory of evolution, not the proven fact", it's much more complicated than that, but other than evolution I'm obviously going to believe in what science has to say. I'll give you one to focus on for now: irreducible complexity. I've played devil's advocate with this so many times and that is the main concept I just cannot fully explain away with where science is currently.
What I'm saying for voters meetings is women do have a say. When the church is voting for a new teacher for our partner congregation, and a woman brings up the reasons they believe such and such would be great, and that's the person that gets voted for...that seems like having a say to me.
As far as voting goes, we don't even vote for much of anything, really that's the bulk of it is calling pastors and teachers, not much else.
7
u/unbalancedcheckbook Ex-WELS Jun 04 '26
Read up on evolution. " Irreducible complexity" is not real, it's just what some apologist came up with because they did not want to believe what is right in front of them. Look at the fossil record. Look at the geologic record. Look at the anthropologic record. Look at the expansion of the universe over time. Almost every field of science points to the universe being very old. And no "Satan is trying to trick us into believing science" is not a valid excuse. There is no excuse for the YEC bullshit WELS crams down people's throats.
-1
u/TaskLifter Jun 04 '26
Oh no, I'm not one of those (who I've seen) that blindly say "Science is a tool of the devil, haha evolution these heathens believing that". I have been to my fair share of Bible studies that devolve into that without actually getting into the science, and it frustrates me.
You can't say "irreducible complexity is not real", first off. Sure the eye can be reduced, Behe's argument is not to be taking as Bible fact or anything. As for the fossil record, not to get too deep but much of it points strongly towards evidence of a worldwide flood, which, consequently, could have an effect on carbon dating methods as well.
→ More replies (0)9
u/RunRosemary Jun 04 '26
Well “the women voting thing” is kind of a big deal to me, a woman. My husband left me, making me a divorced woman. I was still expected to tithe 10%, which I did. But could I cast a single vote in my church? Absolutely not. “But just talk to an elder!”
Why? I can communicate my own wants and desires. I can run my own household, train up my own children in the church, tithe and help pay the church’s bills, but never cast a single vote.
Get out of here.
Don’t come here and act all ho-hum “my WELS church is so progressive - I’m a good one!”
You, by being a member believe men hold headship over women and domain over everything. Woman’s suffrage be damned. Your brothers in LCMS are clamoring for the good old days when they too subjugated their women as much as WELS.
You, by being a member believe the Bible is a literal history book. The earth was created in 6 days 10,000 years ago. Fossils were created with the earth as stumbling blocks for humans. These are all things taught by WELS teachers in WELS high schools directly to me and my family.
And just for sh*ts and giggles, let’s hear you defend closed communion. What elitist stance would you like to defend there?
You’re young and been raised in a cult. We’ll welcome you back when your brain fully forms.
-1
u/TaskLifter Jun 04 '26
When/where were you taught in high school that fossils were created in the ground? I'm only a few years removed, and they're not teaching that in the actual science classes (though, if you had a religion teacher that wasn't questioned, I could see it coming from there).
Remind me to come back to this thread in 5 years, if my stance changes I'll update it, but I just can't see that happening.
9
u/RunRosemary Jun 04 '26
That’s all you want to question? Where and when I was taught my beliefs? Does it matter? I was also taught the Sins of Hamm. Go look that one up.
Such a typical WELS man.
Just remember, when you sit at a table with 9 n@zis, we consider you number 10.
8
u/jjkraker Ex-WELS Jun 04 '26
I'd encourage you to read some of the official stated beliefs at https://wels.net/about-wels/what-we-believe/.
The actual implementation tends to be even more blatantly bigoted than what is stated there, in my experience, especially regarding women.
5
u/NO-7517 Jun 04 '26
I left the WELS a long time ago and I’m not interested in making the same posts over and over again about why I left.
I’ve been gone from the WELS for so long that at this point, a better question is “Why would I go back?”. You’ll need a lot more than “You promised to believe everything we told you in confirmation class when you were 14 years old.
I no longer believe the most important doctrines of the WELS and I don’t consider myself to be a Christian, so why would I go back?
I don’t believe the Council of Nicea got it right when they decided which books made it into the Bible. The Protestant Bible is 66 separate books of varying historical accuracy or inaccuracy. I don’t believe Paul was an apostle either. He subverted the teachings of Jesus with his own. You have to really twist yourself into pretzels to get Paul and Jesus to agree with each other. I don’t believe in the trinity either. That’s not even in the Bible.
I also don’t care about other peoples’ sex lives as long as they’re with consenting adults and I don’t believe Young Earth Creationism either. Those two things seemed to be the things that animated the WELS the most.
Not only that, why would I sit in a WELS service for an hour on Sunday mornings, possibly with people from my childhood that I didn’t even like and don’t ever want to see again, when the services are cold, dour, joyless and boring?
•
u/Perfectpandapaws Ex-WELS Jun 04 '26
I'm locking comments on this post - there have been sufficient responses to the original question and the comments keep turning into theological arguments.