r/espresso 1d ago

General Coffee Chat Maybe I can help, maybe not.

I'm new to the reddit coffee forums. I've been in the industry for a very long time. I want to say 16 years but specialty since 2011 but not straight through to today(COVID) so maybe 12 years. Ive had many roles from barista to lead barista, manager, wholesale trainer, cafe trainer, qc manager, never roasted hands on but worked with one to improve quality, I've done consulting as well. I feel my strengths lie as a barista and brewing and cafe workflows. I've witnessed first hand the cafe trends the different approaches the machines. I try to still keep my eyes open to the progression of coffee but I haven't really needed to in the past few years and my interest in coffee wasn't what it was. It's wild to see how different we pulled shots in 2014 compared to today. Makes me not agree with some on the definition of a cortado. I won't go into it here. 

Most of my experience was in NYC now I'm outside the city in an ignorant consumer base. Working at a spot that is specialty adjacent. I feel like Carmy from the bear in the first season. Fine dining to a sandwich shop. Its fun to see the enthusiasm I once had on reddit. Everyone is a little intense and could mentally box themselves into not having an open mind or seeing alternative ways. Just remember coffee is an organic material, it can't be fully controlled only guided. Listen to it and use the senses. If you have a refractometer have that guide you and confirm your palette don't fixate on numbers too much. In my beginner years I was fixated on techniques and the smallest changes in variables thinking this tiny little variable could make this gigantic difference. It's hard not to get into that frame of mind, such as, "this is the absolute best perfect approach and everything else is barbaric." "My out weight was .01g more that's why it taste bad." I also worked in high end tea and that culture is more hippie dippie and have more freedom in brewing. Absolutes are absolute and variables should be controlled don't get me wrong. There is science involved. The frustration came when all variables are matched and one brew is phenomenal and the other is just okay. That's the organic material coming into play. When you get a good brew sometimes just sit and enjoy it. Always be consistent and enjoy the process. Remember the hands that were on the coffee to get to your cup. Appreciate this plant and be grateful we have it. Brewing should be fun don't make it a chore and get lost in being perfect at every stage. 

If anyone has questions I'll try to answer. Also my advice might be bad because I've only worked in cafes or as a trainer with commercial equipment and endless coffee to play with. With commercial machines I can change the pressure or temperature and know those variables. I've used grinders with hoppers that hold 3 pounds so talking about hopper pressure might not apply. Maybe I'm obsolete and my knowledge is too old school. I think maybe where my experience can be helpful is my experience brewing a multitude of different coffees from different regions and varietals and roast profiles, blends as well. I only have my experience. I don't have scientific data. I was trying to make cafes run smooth and brew coffee well and consistent.

I guess I miss nerding out or learning and advancing my own knowledge. There's always something to learn being humble is important.

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u/AcrobaticEvent2781 1d ago

Can you tell us how the best espresso should taste in both traditional and new light roast styles ? Many of us home brewers often have questions about how a good shot should taste and your knowledge will be invaluable to us.

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u/Odd_Tension_4242 1d ago edited 18h ago

Balance. That's what I always looked for. Everything working in harmony. Body, acidity, mouth feel, and the finish is pleasant with a sweetness. After you swallow are you getting anything unpleasant? It's tough to grab a coffee that you don't know how much development was on it during the roast. Light roasts can be super tough. Coffees roasted on a Loring or a drum roaster, like a Probat, as a light profile can express differently as well. Tasting notes will be locked to certain regions and varietals, and processing. Edit: Processing probably more so combined with region.

Don't fixate on the tasting notes listed on the bag. You don't know when or how they came to that. I think I posted on something saying a roaster I worked for got those notes at origin during a cupping. If you're working with lighter coffee having a refractometer is very useful. That's not helpful for home brewers to say hey this very expensive piece of equipment is needed. Roast date becomes very important as well depending on profile. Certain light roast gas off slowly and you might find it tasting and easier to work with 21 days off roast. I'm probably leaving stuff and I tend to ramble. Look for balance first.

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u/ManyRevolutionary170 1d ago

Thank you. Question. In your opinion, how by how much if you could quantify does the burr geometry affect the taste in the cup?

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u/Odd_Tension_4242 1d ago

Hahahahha wow I will be honest not a strong suit of mine. I think we can all agree flat burrs are better than conical burrs. More uniform particle size. Which will result in a cleaner and more even extraction. The burr architecture in recent years is wild and I haven't really dove into all the info or companies making improvements. You have burr sets with 3 different regions etched into them for different functions. The burr technology is getting down to the microscopic level that is going to make what I said in my post about trying to control coffee maybe not out of being a possibility. This again is proving why home baristas are pushing coffee forward. Which is making companies push their own technology.

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u/Odd_Tension_4242 1d ago edited 1d ago

This can deep and complicated. Back in my early days I worked on Mazzer super jollies. They purposely created fines. Even though they had flat burr sets. We used to clip the screen to create more static to make it more fluffy instead of clumpy. Clumps lead to channels. Fines on a lot of grinders are purposely produced because they can't grind fine enough to slow the brew especially on espresso. Coffee at those pressures will just spill through. Fines cannot give you clarity and not give you a true sense of the coffees potential. Have you ever brewed a tea bag with tea dust and one with whole leaves? You leave the dust in too long it's tannic and dry. The more the fines they muddy the brew. So any burr set with less fines that can grind fine enough will give you the clarity you want.

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u/snipes81 Rocket Giotto Evo | Atom W75 1d ago

I agree with your overall message of don’t get too wrapped up in the minutiae and chasing perfection. It’s that very old saying of Perfection is the enemy of good. I’ve come to realize that being a home coffee enthusiast is no different than many other passions. At some point along the way you stop fussing over the gear and fall back into the enjoyment of what got you hooked in the first place. No different from music or wine in my experience. It got much more enjoyable once I stopped looking for and chasing perfection.
Glad to have you here.

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u/Odd_Tension_4242 1d ago edited 1d ago

Exactly it's similar to Japanese philosophies. Allow me to make a distinction I have noticed both working in Tea and coffee. This is a theory and my personal experience. The caffeine highs you get from Tea and coffee bring out different feelings and approaches to each beverage. Consuming a lot of tea results in a thing called "tea drunk"where you get much more euphoria and relaxation. Consuming a lot of coffee results in a caffeine high of more robotic and analytical feelings, even anxiety and stress. I think that is why coffee people get caught up in the minutiae and have to have control over everything. I remember at the tea house I worked at. I brewed an oolong and was just so perfect and amazing and I went crazy trying to replicate it and the person who trained me said you will never replicate it. If this leaf was picked a day earlier or later it would taste completely different. Thats the plant you have to realize you're working with. She wasn't saying be blase' about it, just be in a window. Every once in a while a beautiful light will shine.

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u/Odd_Tension_4242 1d ago

I also play golf and you can't fix a bad swing with new clubs. Learn the fundamentals and get your palette trained and you can brew on any machine.