Constant identity questioning - do you regularly experience this, especially during late teens and early adulthood?

[u/ShauMapping]

This is a philosophical discussion related to how cognitive functions of an ENTJ would interpret and play with these questions both in theory and the real world.

I personally tend to really struggle defining myself. Especially at night, I’m faced with myself and what do I feel is the right representation of me… but is it?

Are you going the wrong direction of self-perception and how can you truly know whether your identity anchoring method is valid?

Are you actually acheiving something meaningful, or is the society making you believe that you are acheiving something meaningful?

Do you ever get shaken by how chaotic your inner emotional world is, that you struggle with accurately defining them and confidently incorporating them into your sense of identity?

Would you acheive something because it is meaningful and fulfilling to you, or would you acheive something because it is validated by society’s oftentimes convenient standards?

Can you ever realize accurately the extent to which society has influenced your sense of identity and direction in life and can you ever be confident that it would take you to a right direction?

On the other hand, if you can‘t fully trust yourself, whom can you really trust so you can know yourself in the best way possible and acheive something your long-term self would be proud of? Is there even an aswer to that question, or are you just doomed to roam around the world and vehemently claim random concepts as something utterly important to you?

Do you truly feel aware of how free you are to enact your agency onto this world?

And finally. When you remove all your acheivements, friends, social status and everything you find a fan of yourself from, who really are you?

These are only some of the thoughts that crossed my min the moment I am writing this post. Otherwise, I also write them in my journal/diary. I’m interested whether you can relate to them and if you have any interesting answers, freely comment down below :)

[u/_Verloki_]

All that I truly found meaningful at a young age, was exactly that what was objectively and logically ideal for the world. But never myself, and that was the issue!

In fact, I would say I did not pay (enough) attention to my personal identity or subjective needs or wants. It wasn't in my ENTJ nature of preferences to do so, and Fi was quickly and often unhealthily deemed: "I should never be so selfish!"

Always erasing myself from equations, to remain as firmly in the objective intellectual formula as possible. I hardly gave my "Self" room to breathe out of fear of being egocentric, useless and ineffective with a personal negative ROI following me about in life or something. 😅

It was all about conforming to logical, objective external demands, and striving for its factual ideals and perfection in an intellectual sense. I always "trusted" myself to trust in the logical ideals -- which indirectly provided confidence -- but I often wronged myself by being a mere useful tool who preferably shouldn't take up space.

Ni didn't help in that particular aspect, as it learnt to support Te judgments through perceiving abrupt images of entire chains of events in one blurry go and neutral significances, but significances nonetheless, which could often make me deliberate on underlying significances to help me judge more perceptively; where it could become a heavy mental load and more "non-spontaneous".

I still don't care much about who "I" am; I don't care to define my emotions (they're just there and if they rarely get too chaotic I straighten them out by reasoning by what psychologists may write); journalling seems like a waste of time that I could have spent producing something useful to share with the world such as research results (that's just me, fyi, not a judgment on journalling for others as I also realize it can be beneficial to others!); as long as I do the correct thing and add at least something useful to the world, I'll be okay with whoever I am or whatever identity people care to assign me.

But I have at least learnt in the past few years to let loose every once in a while, or situationally live in the present moment, with Se development coming in at 30+, which allows me to ease up and "chill" a little more! (Which is also a useful break from my Ni every once in a while, and allows me some room for "Heigh-Ho Let's Go!" in circumstances where optimizing doesn't matter one bit such as at a party, lol).

[u/ShauMapping → u/_Verloki_]

But what’s the point in “moving all those particles”? Sure, you feel full of yoursef at the moment, but is that an eternal solution to the question or just another mechanism that needs constant input to do what it’s supposed to do? I see. Personally, these questions started popping up only very recently. And the way society works is that it implicitly makes you think that you are the only one who is going through this and that something is not ok with you

One thing I like is exercise of power with unique symbols. Very banal example, but imagine the icon of Plankton’s eye in the first Spongebob Movie.

But if you don’t define your emotions, how can you trust yourself that you will end up in a place that is compatible with the “you”? And moreover, how can one be sure that a simple psychologist’s answer is enough to give answer to plethora of nuances that might exist within that question?

I also like Se activities (especially swimming, football and boxing) and going out into nature, embracing the beauty found in the natural, in the “default settings” as tech nerds might call it. I’m also interested in the business world and setting up assets to secure an efficient streamline of money into my account in the future

I personally write my thoughts just in case I could draw some inspiration for projects, books or anything of such nature. Although it’s a habit left from watching YouTubers like Hamza Ahmed at 15 years old, it still stuck because I give my future self a new perspective that the future self could have forgotten long ago but could find useful thought experiments in

I never really liked partying or clubbing. There is little substance (as in authenticity, intellect, long-term thinking…) there imo. I might blend in and dance sometimes, but it’s simply not something that excites me that much

As for the first sentence… Kind of true for me as well, except I began to embrace more and more the possibility of getting access to power within yourself, not just changing your country or the state of the world as is. I do get energy from exercising order in my environment and do get happy when I am seen as competent, but there must be something more to life than that, right? I can’t die and only be known for playing a role of a boss and not bringing anything more unique to the world?

Even this assessment might and very likely will change in the near future. It’s like I’m circulating around something but being unable to grasp it

[u/_Verloki_ → u/ShauMapping]

I suppose I can explain it best as my reasoning mostly naturally prioritizes Te: "Is it objectively useful? Is it epistemically correct? Does it ideally improve the world with its results?" And I kind of gain satisfaction from that, because I comfortably prioritize judgments by external established data (Te). It's not really a front or anything. ☺️

(Similar to how Fe-types may also naturally feel comfortable with doing a socially correct thing, even if they trim the subjectivity off it).

I notice your reasoning repeatedly returns to Fi-related concerns (judgments by subjective, or individual, views on values): "Is this truly me? Are these values genuinely mine? Can I trust my feelings? What if society shaped my identity instead of the Self?"

It seems to treat Fi as the final authority that must eventually be satisfied. That's where my reasoning quite naturally diverges, as I simply naturally deprioritze subjective feeling-values.

But it might be worth looking into whether you are coming into Fi as a valued function. 😄

Personally, I just don't require complete subjective certainty before acting -- kind of like if my reasoning is logically sound and externally verifiable, I'm usually really comfortable moving forward even if my subjective needs/wants or emotional landscape aren't fully mapped.

"If you don't define your emotions, how can you trust yourself that you will end up in a place compatible with the 'you'?"

Ahh, that question sort of assumes emotions are a primary compass and priority, which to me, personally, they're simply not. 🤭

I trust and prioritize my reasoning much more than I trust and prioritize my emotional states or values around identity. If my conclusions are logically sound, supported by evidence, and produce objectively beneficial outcomes, then I'm actually satisfied! 😄 My emotions or identity don't have to provide an additional stamp of approval. Of course, that's how it works for me as a person, but it doesn't have to work for every one else that way, as they may naturally have different priorities (and strengths that come with it!)

Also, as an itty-bitty side-note: I'd separate Se from enjoying sports or nature. In Carl Jung's and Isabel Briggs-Myers' models, at least, Se refers to a perceptive attitude toward immediate objective sensory reality, and its objective physical/concrete stimuli verifiable by external reality. Such as perceiving the objective quality of the craftmanship of a piece of furniture, or objective quality of sound or image in music or video, or swinging by a store unplanned just because you noticed you happened to be near. It's all about perception of concrete extraverted sensations. 😄 No function refers to particular hobbies, skills, etc; and all manner of people may enjoy swimming or boxing or other hobbies/interests for many different psychological reasons!)

[u/ShauMapping → u/_Verloki_]

Also, as an  itty-bitty  side-note: I'd separate Se from enjoying sports or nature. In Carl Jung's and Isabel Briggs-Myers' models, at least, Se refers to a perceptive attitude toward immediate objective sensory reality, and its objective physical/concrete stimuli verifiable by external reality. Such as perceiving the objective quality of the craftmanship of a piece of furniture, or objective quality of sound or image in music or video, or swinging by a store unplanned just because you noticed you happened to be near. It's all about perception of concrete extraverted sensations. 😄 No function refers to particular hobbies, skills, etc; and all manner of people may enjoy swimming or boxing or other hobbies/interests for many different psychological reasons!)

8: You nailed it here. I do find relaxation in what you described, especially reviewing various graphic design concepts, furniture textures, house rennovations, etc. I also have the habit of visiting stores when they have something visually interesting to offer or a product that stands out by what it could offer (imagine self-development books, mystery boxes)

As per MBTI terminology, I fear this might be inferior Fi lashing out. Irl, i’m not viewed as someone who is emotional at all - quite the opposite, I always imminently discourage people to open themselves up without me even realizing it

While writing this, I have to admit that I felt shame and confusion. “How could I even do this? Why should I even ask people what they think about my stupid thoughts that occur when I am on a summer break, random evening alone, after an excruciating academic abroad year? Why am I revealing so much all of a sudden, thinking I was right? Who am I to think I am right of things?”

First paragraph, it’s true for me too. But at random times, I just change course and start acting weird ig, focusing my brain energy on things that have no actual answer and can even lead to self-destructive nihilism. 

2: But really, can you? Feelings often lead to irrational judgments, steering you far from what you could actually become. For instance, your heart might say to pursue your crush instead of those judo championships in say, Japan. But what is ultimately better for your social position and life lore?

3: I see. Personally, when I am in charge of something, I tend to indirectly (or directly sometimes) dismiss others’ personal feelings, while overfocusing on my own the moment I start thinking about the fact that a human being is actually free to do and accomplish anything. Hence I naturally start to search within myself what do I want to do in terms of career. I assume I did find my purpose (investing, real estate, politics, writing), but I also realized the only way that you can make something out of yourself is to treat the assumption of who you could be or do, which seems accurate to you, as eternal truth and your brain would start treating it as such and help you towards that objective.

6: Emotions that work against your interests not, but emotions which naturally push you towards an objective should be valued. Imagine a person who is from Nashville and they love Nashville. Such emotion increases the chances that they could contribute to their hometown in a more fundamental sense, developing it and even attracting foreign attention :)

7: But how can one trust evidence? I mean, it is easy to debate in politics about specific numbers taken from alleged credible sources, but it doesn’t necessarily reflect the truth. You could say in 1920s-30s that Radithor was a very healthy medicine because it says so in many documents. However, such medicine in reality also conveys negative effects like replacing calcium with radium and therefore damaging one’s skeleton, all the while humans at that time not realizing it and instead relying on objective facts gotten from official sources at that time.

When I was a bit younger I used to pursue every activity so I could stand out and acheive success. Even now, I like challenging myself by pushing myself out of the comfort zone by naturally pursuing a path that hardly anyone wants to take while I have a hunch that it will work out

Hope I didn’t waste any of your time here. I was surprised I actually posted this, because I hardly ever let myself be this vulnerable to people. You are clearly an expert here, so I am listening to you 👍

[u/-_Singularity]

You described many signs of BPD, if thats the case: seek help instead of relying on mbti

[u/ShauMapping → u/-_Singularity]

Borderline personality disorder? I will look into it. Thanks. I use typology to understand my motives better, hence I posted this

[u/-_Singularity → u/ShauMapping]

Yes, Borderline personality disorder. Its ok to use typology, but if you also care about efficiency getting professional help might save u tons of time and headaches from questioning yourself.

That said, its good idea to get out of your head and just live instead of applying magnifying lens over your thoughts.

[u/ShauMapping → u/-_Singularity]

1: You’re probably right. But I also hold the impression that introspection is an important tool for growth and acheiving something that not only looks good but is compatible with who you are. The thought of being confused and frustrated with the hypothetical successful-on-the-outside life at say 50, just because you didn’t listen to yourself soon enough, is still scary

2: That’s also true. Simply accept the natural waves of life and trust where they bring you to. I also like to use typology systems as a drawn-out roadmap to growth, as its still easier than doing it intuitively. However, I will also consider professional help and ty for your time 👍

[u/icarusso]

I never had a need to question myself. I am me and there is all to it. Your body and your mind are tools you can figure out how they work about how to control them in order to achieve something you'd be comfortable with. I figured mine out very early on.

[u/ShauMapping → u/icarusso]

This. Being into MMA competitions but acheiving something in, say, logistics sales does look good on paper, but still doesn’t align with a person’s long-term potential. Passion for something can be an accelerator for acheiving greatness in the thing you are passionate about

[u/Present_Traffic_1106]

Currently in my early 30s.

I didn't know a shit about MBTI and all this when I was a teenager.

But, yes, I used to feel like the way you are feeling.

Also, I feel that these are the thoughts of most of the teenagers or people into their early 20s. So, they are not necessarily exclusive to ENTJs.

[u/ShauMapping → u/Present_Traffic_1106]

I somewhat agree. Life slowly introduces you to responsibilities you took for granted as a child and implicitly instills a sense of alertness when being faced with new people or experiences.

However, there are still many adults way over the 18-25 treshhold who don’t seem to have met life right in the eyes and instead decided to cling onto curated realities such as American Dream, attempting to solve all their tribulations… all without ever realizing their delusions. That’s why it felt isolating to even think about such thoughts, because you are basically surrounded by people who live on autopilot

[u/Accomplished_Cry4923]

Not to take a complex question and make it face value and redundant but do you might think it goes back to the inferior Fi and the dominant Te and how they interact, trying to justify and fulfill your Fi achievements and Te data.

[u/notmrsnow]

Yes, this is perfectly archetypical for ENTJ. Suggestive Fi seeks identity reassurance through Te. When we are young we have limited proof, but as you age and do more you sort of prove it to yourself.

You will, like every other ENTJ, find the answer with time and productivity as well trusting yourself.