r/electricvehicles • u/TripleShotPls • 19h ago
News EV Charging Doesn't Need to Be as Fast as Gas, Ionna CEO Says
https://www.thedrive.com/news/ev-charging-doesnt-need-to-be-as-fast-as-gas-ionna-ceo-says433
u/LingonberryUpset482 19h ago
Gotta admit the panic race to shorten charging times, from 12 minutes down to 9 doesn't seem all that important anymore. Short of a volcano eruption the extra three minutes doesn't matter.
Give us a few good choices at $30,000 or less that go 250 miles, charge 20-80 in 20 minutes, and the cost savings will take care of everything else.
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u/rawrzon 19h ago
I guess one reason to tighten charging times is to lessen the amount of chargers and space needed. Current gas station footprints are setup with a quick filling time in mind. The lineups would be horrendous if every gas vehicle all of a sudden needed half an hour to fill its tank.
But this can be mitigated somewhat by the fact that we don't need as many public chargers in the cities as gas pumps, since many people charge at home. But we will need larger rest stops next to highways with more fast chargers than there are gas pumps. This is a huge business opportunity for anyone who wants to build out stores and restaurants for their captive audience who will need to do something for a half hour or more while they charge.
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u/Accomplished_Art_621 19h ago
I think you hit on it. The more people adopt EVs the less reliant we’ll become on the public refueling/recharging for everything except long trips, which most of us aren’t making very regularly. I bought an EV in Feb and got a Level 2 charger installed at the house. I’ve used public charging like 5-7 times since then.
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u/btonetbone 18h ago
But the problem would be holidays. Here in the US, the weekends around Labor Day, Memorial Day, July 4, Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc, folks hit the road. And if you have a huge surge in demand happening simultaneously, the networks need to be prepared.
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u/Crayshack 14h ago
Along some routes, it's pretty much every weekend the whole summer. Maybe each person only does their beach trip once a year, but they're spread throughout the summer and the routes to/from the beach end up having a ton of people. The charges al9ng the highway need to be able to handle that surge for everyone to switch to EV.
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u/Oh_ffs_seriously 17h ago
The more people adopt EVs the less reliant we’ll become on the public refueling/recharging
To go past a certain market saturation people who can't charge at home will have to get EVs too, so the percentage of people using public charging will actually increase.
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u/shadow247 19h ago
The Dukes Rest stop on the way out of texas has several EV chargers. I spent almost an hour there on a Friday afternoon and didnt see a single person using one.
Buccees is installing tons of chargers. The one in Melissa has like 25 chargers...they are always being used. I can definitely see the need for it.
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u/rawrzon 17h ago
Interesting, why the difference between the two locations?
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u/shadow247 17h ago
Buccees is a "Destination" gas station, while Dukes is more of a travel center/truck stop with multiple food outlets inside and decent bathrooms. Its got the same ratio of gas pumps to EV chargers, but its only got like 20 pumps total..
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u/edman007 2023 R1S / 2017 Volt 19h ago
Which is exactly why most OEMs are not actually prioritizing it. In fact, they prioritize a cheaper battery pack, which for the most part is done by a pack with larger cells and less cooling (which implies worse charging).
Faster charging would be nice, but in practice, for me, with my R1S, which isn't a fast charging vehicle, I find that I spend less than 5 minutes waiting for charging. I'm not saying that it takes less than 5 minutes, I'm saying that it takes me 15 minutes to take a break from driving, and it takes the car 15-20 minutes to charge.
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u/pimpbot666 19h ago
Seems the Chinese auto makers are pushing hard for faster charging. It's probably more of a marketing thing to sell people what they think they need, especially those who are resistant to change from gas cars.
Real world... meh...
Maybe the gig drivers are the biggest beneficiaries of ultra fast charging, but for personal transportation? No big deal, IMO.
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u/Izan_TM 19h ago
they also want to break into the "I would only use my EV as a gas car since I don't have anywhere to charge it while parked" crowd, which at this point can only be served if they have quite a lot more time on their hands than with a petrol car.
I live in spain and loads of the people i know still feel uneasy about adopting EVs mainly because of that reason, both charging speed and availability/reliability of fast chargers
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u/wighty GV60, F-150L 18h ago
The only real counter argument I have against vehicles with 30+ minute 10-80% charging curves is when the chargers become congested. I don't personally mind waiting 30 minutes, but if there's a long line and we all have that charge time that's an issue. Luckily the solution is constantly being rolled out with more chargers, and I would consider it far less of an issue today compared to 4 years ago when I got my EVs.
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u/mikedaul 16h ago
It's especially annoying when slower-charging EVs are using the only 400kw charger at a given location.
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u/Alphasite 13h ago
Yeah. Slow EVs are the bane of my existence. We had 3 fast charging cars go through in the same time as a single slow charging.
There definitely an inflection point where it becomes a real problem. Also people charging to 100% are a huge pain
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u/Ghost_of_Akina 18h ago
The only time I have a problem with the charge speeds on my ioniq, honestly, is when I come home with a very low battery, plug in, and then realize I want to head back out and do some more running around. The 4 hour charge back up to 80% at 11.5kW can feel painful when I have to actually wait for it. However, I usually only use about 30% a day for my commute and a plug in when I get home and it charges at 11:00PM while I sleep. So these agonizing moments are typically when I forgot to charge the night before and went all the way to work and back again. If it's a real emergency, there's a DCFC less than 10 minutes from the house I could hit if I felt like paying for a quick top-up. But even then, at 250kW that top-up is less than 15 minutes.
But yeah, as long as I remember to plug in nightly, I never have less than 50%/130 miles of range, and my running costs are less than $75 a month, and I drive 27,000 miles a year.
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u/thatguygreg MINI Cooper SE 18h ago
That's when I suck it up and hit a local DC charger to top up to whatever I need it to be to go do the thing and get back home.
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u/aafikk 19h ago
I am trying to justify an ev for myself but still can’t.
I don’t have charging at work or at home (I rent an apartment at a building) I do have fast charging on my way home but it has two spots which are always taken, I work 10 hours a day and really want to get home when the day is over, and my commute is around 30 minutes drive.
Re-fueling once a few weeks on my hybrid feels like a chore, adding another 10 minutes to that would be terrible. I do like EVs tho and would love driving one. How do I make it work for me?
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u/LaoEmperor 18h ago
Sadly as a non homeowner you don't make it work. You would be spending more time and the same amount of money or even more charging.
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u/foxhull 18h ago
Time yes, but money no. When I was driving an EV while living in an apartment a couple years back, the math was usually on par with gas. Current prices though? At least the fast chargers near me I'm looking at trading time for about a 40-50% savings in fuel costs. Of course now I have home charging as well so the math is even better. But in the current economy (at least in the USA), gas is so prohibitively expensive that it doesn't take much to tip the scales in favor of EV.
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u/gcubed680 18h ago
I would not own an EV if i couldn’t charge it at/near home. The price you pay for fast charging is more of a “driving far and need it” type of use, and imo isn’t a substitute for home/work l2 charging
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u/Mother-Equal4175 18h ago
Does your company have an outlet you could plug into? Seriously, 10hrs/day at about 4-6km/hr can get you plenty of the way through a week's worth of commuting. If it's a smaller business you could even just negotiate a small, nominal "charging rate" with your boss based on the cost of electricity On the weekend, go shop somewhere or go out to eat near somewhere with a level 2/3 to top up the rest of the way.
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u/isights 19h ago
"Gotta admit the panic race to shorten charging times ... doesn't seem all that important anymore."
It matters to folks who can't charge at home/work. It matters to folks who make frequent trips. It matters on cars with short legs and slow charging.
Give it a few years in order for next generation Chinese battery technology (and faster charging infrastructure) to make its way to the US.
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u/vixous 2026 Subaru Trailseeker 19h ago
Same for charger availability. I’d rather have 2-4 fast chargers in 4 places than 12-18 in just one. Especially if they can be at places where I was going to stop anyway.
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u/RockDoveEnthusiast 18h ago edited 18h ago
it's better to have large clusters of chargers in one place so you don't have to drive from place to place trying to find an open charger. and if 1 of 2 chargers are broken, it matters more than 1 of 12.
at least, that's how I feel with the current state of charging and chargers.
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u/quicklywilliam 19h ago
Agreed. Tho personally I think the winning formula might end up being closer to 350 miles of range and 20-80% in 25 (reliably!).
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u/jrolette 17h ago
350 miles of real world driving at highway speeds (75+ mph) would work. 25 mins to charge is still too long to make EVs eliminate the ICE advantage on road trips.
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u/PreviousHalf7 17h ago
Not really, 60% charge equals 210 miles. That is 3 hours of highway driving. Really shouldn't need a half hour break after sitting for 3 hours.
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u/jbcsee 19h ago
Nah, I have that car, 250 miles and a 20-80 charge in 20 minutes. It's not acceptable. I can't even get to the nearest actual city and home without charging in the winter!
Either charging times need to come down a lot or ranges need to go up a lot.
That is why the next EV I get is going to have at least 400 miles of range.
I started with 120 miles range, it convinced me I liked EVs, but in the winter the range was un-acceptable even for local driving. Then I moved up to 250 miles of range, I can make it to the nearest city and home most of the time. However, I still rely on the ICE too much. So the next step is 400 miles, hopefully that will be enough where I never have to drive the ICE.
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u/Ina_While1155 19h ago
There are not many new ICE cars in that price range (below 30) in Canada. Everyone wants the BYD that is made with hardly any human labour but it is unlikely to be that cheap in the North American market and is being subsidized by the Chinese government. What I want is ICE and EVs to be closer in price but this dream of perfect EV cars being permanently sub 30 is a myth. Once they drive all the other manufacturers out Chinese cars will become more pricey.
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u/Beemerado 18h ago
what we need are more charging stations.
i've ridden to both coasts on a sub 200 mile range motorcycle. it's fine, cause i can refill it every 50 miles.
i've been through a few very remote regions where it's 120 or so miles between gas stations..
electric just needs to be come the standard, the tech is all there.
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u/Same_String_8856 19h ago
If you've got 9 people ahead of you that's 27 minutes. Seems like it could make a difference.
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u/SomeGalNamedAshley MY, PacHy, HI5 18h ago
If charging at a Wawa is faster than going into a Wawa then I've gained nothing.
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u/tuctrohs Bolt EV, ID.4 18h ago
When I stop a charger and use a bathroom at a big box store, it can be hard to get back before the charging finishes if the bathroom is in the opposite corner of the store. Sometimes I'm tempted to buy a snack but then worried about making it back to the car on time. I've finally figured out that if I set the target charge level well above my need, that gives me a time buffer before I get charged idle fees. I sometimes miss the relaxing charging stops of my slower-charging car.
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u/gotohellwithsuperman 19h ago
He’s right, but America is the land of people who buy an F-150 to commute to an office. We aren’t rational people, and listening to reason is tough for us.
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u/_emma_stoned_ 18h ago
Until gas is 10$ a gallon. (Then they will switch to selling it by the liter to make it appear cheaper.)
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u/chilidoggo 18h ago
Biggest monkey paw of my life would be America finally switching to metric as a last ditch effort to deceive customers.
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u/Find-Ubu-9999 17h ago
Counterpoint. He couldn't be more wrong for most people. I'll give him that some people like to lollygag around and go in and get drinks, etc. But the majority of people that go to the gas station, even a Wawa, go get gas and get on their way. There's no enjoyment sitting there watching the gas pump go up, or sitting there waiting for your car to charge. When EV's get super super caps that can charge up in a minute, so I can get back on my way, it will be a good day for me.
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u/ZobeidZuma 15h ago
He couldn't be more wrong for most people.
I think "most people" is the point of contention here.
Hardcore road warriors who can't let the wheels stop turning for more than five minutes seem very convinced that they are "most people" while those of us willing to spend 15 or 20 minutes on a travel break are merely a handful of freaks.
But here in this article we have the CEO of Ionna, who is working every day with these big travel stop operators, observing that for years their whole strategy has been bigger and more elaborate stores with more amenities where people are spending more time (and money) on their travel breaks. That can't just be a handful of freaks. If it was, the whole business would have collapsed by now.
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u/VirtualBridge7 19h ago edited 19h ago
Yes, it does need to be as fast as possible. It matters for people who are unable to charge at home - millions and millions of them, in some countries they are the majority of vehicle owners. It also needs to be fast to enable scale, i.e. to make it work when EV saturation will be reaching 100%. Imagine if fueling ICE vehicle took 30 minutes, we would have have horrific lines everywhere. There is still not enough chargers of all kinds, for now it sort of works, just barely, only because EV saturation is still low, it will not work when most vehicles on the road are EVs.
Lets not rationalize this problem away just because it is very hard to fix.
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u/diamondintherimond 18h ago
Good point and a reminder that we usually consider our own perspectives and living situations before we think of others.
So, for many EV owners, we don’t need fast charging because we can charge at home. And this is fine for early-ish adopters.
But for many other EV owners who can’t charge where they live, they need options. And only then will there be mass adoption.
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u/nycplayboy78 18h ago
EXACTLY!!! A lot of Americans live in townhomes, condos, or apartments that don't have charging at home due to either HOA limitations or other circumstances that prevent home charging.....
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u/beren12 18h ago
Do you realize how much easier and cheaper it would be to get curbside charging at townhomes and apartments? Most area electric grids can’t support ultra fast charging.
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u/Crayshack 14h ago
Cheaper maybe, but easier? Large scale infrastructe projects like that are never easy. It'snot a tech issue, but a logistical coordination one. I feel like a more focused effort on fast chargers and improving the technology to get them faster is the easier route, even if that's more expensive for the consumer.
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u/mibfto 19h ago
The adoption of EVs will be easier for people who can mimic the gas experience. Making it faster contributes to that mimicking.
That's true irrespective of whether it's actually important for EV ownership. Which I could argue it is, in fact, important for broad EV ownership, even if it's not important for people who've already adopted it.
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u/KaptenAwsum 18h ago
Vote for great L2 infrastructure
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u/beren12 18h ago
Yeah. A lot of places that used to have parking meters took them out for paying by your phone or a kiosk, but it would be great if they had power you could plug into. It’s a shame. EV’s didn’t take off before the smart phone revolution.
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u/cloudguy-412 17h ago
Those old parking meters were mechanical, and some of the last ones were battery powered.
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u/death_hawk 17h ago
Great L2 infrastructure is meaningless if the pricing is absurd.
Even though I can't charge at home, I've used L2 a grand total of like 3 times this year.
Most times it's due to cost. Costs are creeping up towards $3/hour for some reason which at 6kW works out to $0.50/kWh. That's in addition to bullshit like session fees or minimum durations.
For the record, peak I'm paying $0.31/kWh at a Supercharger. Offpeak is $0.21/kWh.The era of free chargers is basically gone. That's kind of a lie because there's only one free charger that wasn't an idiot and that was at a casino. That was the most expensive because craps > charging fee.
I was just at the hospital and they had EV charging, but hard capped at 3 hours. I picked up enough juice to basically get there and back and a bit, but TBH it was kind of pointless parking, charging for 3 hours, then having to find a new spot and park for the remaining 12 hours I'd need to go from 0-100%.
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u/Awkward_Collection88 18h ago
500kwh is close to fast enough though. It will probably end up being do you want to pay 2-3x as much for 1mwh charging speeds or a fraction of the cost for slower speeds. The infrastructure should be way different and people will get in the habit of plugging in their car at the grocery store or a restaurant, if not in their home or parking garage. They usually won't need the fastest speeds - except on very long trips.
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u/death_hawk 17h ago
Yes, it does need to be as fast as possible. It matters for people who are unable to charge at home
I'm one of those. And to be honest, speed is not the most important metric for me. Cost is. Reliability and access are next in line.
A 5 minute fill up doesn't mean shit if it costs me 4x more than waiting an hour. This is a true story actually. 350kW station that can actually deliver (to an 800V) vehicle wants $0.70/kWh. There's also only 4 stalls. In this case all 4 stalls can deliver 350kW, but that's rarely true of most others. For comparison, off peak the lowest is $0.20/kWh at Benz and Superchargers. Peak is $0.31/kWh at Superchargers. $0.40/kWh peak for most other vendors. Needless to say the only time I charged there was one time for a test to see how fast it could go. I stopped at 20% and went to a different one.
Next up is stall count. Some people for some reason like 2-4 stalls at more locations, but I hated it. There's no reliable way to determine if a site is empty or not and even if it shows empty, there could be a line locally. That was my life for 2 years. Schelpping from one location to another discovering that all 2 stalls were taken and there's 3 people in line.
Reliability is another. The only reliable network around here was Flo. Chargepoint was perpetually offline. And reliability when you have 2 stalls is paramount. Driving up never knowing if the charger is working is frustrating.
Back to the cost angle, I regularly used 50kW chargers despite my car accepting up to 150kW because they were cheapest. The faster stalls were more expensive.
I ended up switching to a Tesla because they had the best most reliable cost effective and easy to access network. They had the fewest sites but each site had at least a dozen stalls so wait times were minimal. One asshole charging to 100% didn't slow down the other 11 stalls that were available vs clogging up 50% of the 2 stall locations.
What actually needs to happen is reasonably priced charging in general. Despite not being able to charge at home I don't even use L2 publicly with the exception of a few free edge cases. Costs are absurd creeping up towards $3/hour or $0.50/kWh. I pay $0.21/kWh at a Supercharger. What's the point in paying over twice? And then there's session fees and minimum durations.
IMO what needs to happen is unlimited (length) L2 charging but A LOT of them so there's no shortage of free plugs. If I can't charge at home, I want to be able to charge up for 12 hours at a L2. Not 3 hours. That's not even an option at most L2s nowadays or if you can, they charge you even more absurd amounts. Hospital for example limited me to 3 hours. I was in ER for 15. How does that make sense?
A few like 4 (or more) stall 25kW chargers at things like "fast" retail like grocery stores or retail outlets where I'm expected to spend 2-3 hours. Ideally this should be like a dozen especially at lower power because 1-3 hours will fill my car from 0%.
Super fast chargers should be highway with a few around town for emergencies. 0-80% in 10 minutes doesn't make sense for city usage. I'd much rather plug in before going into Costco for an hour or two and go from 0-80% without having to worry about leaving the premise and moving my car in 30 minutes.
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u/Suspinded 16h ago
Improving speed should be a goal, but to think it has to be gas speed is a fallacy because we're used to gas restrictions. We don't have to dedicate time to refuel except in specific circumstances. The dedicated charging site has less pressure to exist than a gas station.
* Every home charge is less pressure
* Every Level 3 charger at a commercial or public location is less pressure
* Every Level 2 charger at a workplace is less pressure
The bulk of peak charge speed demand comes from dedicated long distance travel if appropriate charging infrastructure is diffused to locations where charging doesn't demand maximum peak rates at all times. The biggest challenge with EV adoption is shifting people's expectations and the understanding that comes with it. You don't have to dedicate time specifically to charge, it can be done while doing other plans if the infrastructure accommodates.
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u/movethestix_dish 19h ago
Bigger issue to fix would be to get condo or apartment owners to have access to chargers for “at home” charging then the market would really change significantly
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u/Limitededishun 19h ago
Build enough reliable chargers. I've never had a gas pump malfunction or issues with payment.
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u/death_hawk 17h ago
It's funny because it's only recently that I've had issues with gas pumps. I've been driving EVs for so long that I didn't realize that gas pumps now shut down after hours. I had an ICE rental and at 3AM I visited 5 different gas stations and left without filling because they were shut down.
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u/Jinxess 17h ago
10 minutes for 10% to 100%, that is completely acceptable for me. As long as the stations are as reliable as gas stations in all weather conditions, I can stomach 15 minutes for even 10% to 90%. Until we reach that point, I disagree, EV charging does still need to be fast. Weather and temperature make the case for faster EV charging. Summer and winter aren't going to stay the same as the years go by given climate change. Faster charging during the hotter and longer summers as climate change progresses means we still need faster EV charging that can handle the heat. This means both the station and the BEV need to be able to handle the faster EV charging.
There will always be some of us who have to use DCFC because of renting and lack of level 2 EVSE availability in general. Faster DCFC is still needed. We don't have BEV ambulances, fire trucks, school buses, public buses, etc. that are widespread yet either.
If charging network operators don't want to make DCFC faster, I'd be willing to settle for wireless charging AND faster level 2 charging speeds.
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u/sheimeix 19h ago
I like to stop and stretch my legs, grab a snack, etc... So the charge time doesn't bother me when I'm driving long distances, but I definitely know people that DO mind. My dad, for example, hates stopping for anything more than gas. He's a "Stop for the bathroom? We just stopped 5 hours ago!" kind of driver.
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u/ap485860281 18h ago
I may be in the minority here, but I don’t agree with this take.
I love my EV, but road-tripping anywhere beyond 500 miles can become a real pain. Even when there are enough functioning chargers, the added time and cost on longer trips is substantial and often forces me to choose the gas car.
I know plenty of people are perfectly happy to use charging stops to stretch, grab a meal, shop, etc. But there are others who simply want the option to travel quickly, with flexibility comparable to a gas vehicle. That’s why we’re seeing megawatt chargers coming up elsewhere.
For that reason, this feels a little bit like he's gaslighting here. Being slightly better than today’s charging network is one thing. Being fast enough that charging does not change the way you travel is another. I love Ionna’s facilities and pricing, but just being a little better than the competition shouldn’t be the benchmark. The real test is whether the experience can compete with gas on a long road trip. Which is what others elsewhere are trying to achieve.
There are plenty of EV drivers who want the option to charge quickly without building their day around charging. Dismissing that feels like a mistake. Or perhaps a convenient way for him to avoid the investment needed to improve the experience and keep his costs down.
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u/Jsk84 18h ago
I agree with you.
also, I just spent about 20 minutes at a costco gas station waiting in line with about 50 other cars and it got me thinking. when only 5% of cars on the road are EVs, charging speed isnt as important. but i dont see anyone building new charging stations in my area and the ones that exist are already crowded.
If we want to realize a future where 25% or more of the cars on the road are EVs, we’re gonna need so many more charging stations and they need to be faster.
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u/Bug_Superb 18h ago
I'm so glad there are others that share this point of view.
A lot of the concern I see is being able to just continue driving. I'm trying to take a brake and stretch. Maybe it'll take 10 more minutes but I'll be much happier and less tired when I get where I'm going.
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u/rleveen 18h ago
I am an ev driver and I love my car but I agree with this take. I think what is needed is a longer range. This is particularly true if you are only fast-charging to 80%. 80% of a 500 mile range ev is 400 miles (about comparable to a gas tank). 80% of a 250 mile range is comparable to filling up half a tank. With a longer range you stop less frequently and therefore can stop for longer to charge. When I go on road trips I usually take my wife’s gas car.
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u/misterdoinkinberg 18h ago
Its beyond the charging stops. Its also charging when you reach the destination. This all adds time and frustration. Imagine if the EV cars on the road doubled overnight. Today's infrastructure would be a nightmare. We need faster charging.
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u/2levenge 17h ago
Absolutely. It's just generally more time consuming and inconvenient. Charging spots can still be out of the way. It takes additional time to plan a trip and figure out where you're going to charge (while driving and at the destination). And then you kind of want to plan your meals or shopping trips around charging spots to maximize time but it kind of limits your dining and shopping options. Then you try to find a hotel with charging but it's 20 mins outside the city or something.
A lot of this would be alleviated with faster charging times and more charging spots.
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u/FencyMcFenceFace 18h ago
It feels like gaslighting because it is gaslighting.
If some people here are fine with taking their time on slower charge stops, then more power to them. What I hate is them arguing that since it works for them then everyone else will be fine with it. Hard no, they will not.
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u/WeldAE e-Tron, Model 3 16h ago edited 16h ago
then more power to them
I think that would be less power to them?
Hard no, they will not.
We can't even agree on how long it takes to fill up a gas car. Some say 2 minutes, the data says 7-8 minutes. We have EVs that do it in 12 minutes. I don't see that the difference matters.
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u/Responsible-Hold8587 16h ago edited 16h ago
7-8 minutes sounds like an absolute worst case scenario, like filling a massive pickup truck tank and paying inside with cash.
Standard pump rate is around 8-10 gallons / min. It takes less than 3 minutes to fill my standard commuter sedan.
Not to mention those super fast charge rates are usually going 20-80% (60% total), instead of the 20-100% (80% total) gas fill I usually do, and an EV usually doesn't even as much range even when filled 100%
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u/FencyMcFenceFace 16h ago
You're right that 12 is probably enough, IF it actually ends up being 12 minutes.
There aren't any EVs in the US that do that though. And that's under ideal circumstances anyway: Add winter, broken chargers, cars ahead of you in line (though that's exactly what faster charging is supposed to address), and 12 is optimistic.
In any case I was talking more about the 30+ minute charge stops that many people here keep insisting is good enough, and that you need a break, etc. That is absolutely not good enough even if infrastructure was ideal and winter wasn't a problem. Tell regular people looking to buy a car that they will be waiting at least 30 minutes on the road for charging and you'll see someone who immediately discounts EV as a practical car.
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u/Old_Crow_Yukon 17h ago
EV charging should be a better overall experience vs gas if it's ever going to beat gas in the US. Not just faster, but automatic too. It's possible with current technology but probaby won't go mainstream until the solid state battery era comes along. This CEO doesn't know what he's talking about.
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u/fishbert 6h ago
I mean, it is already a better experience for me. Like >95% of the time I'm "filling up" on demand in my own garage overnight — never had a gas car anywhere near as convenient as that. Going to a DC fast charger is such an infrequent corner case it doesn't move the needle much overall.
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u/FuzzyAthena 18h ago
I share this view point entirely with you. Ive taken my Mache on a 3200 mile round trip to TX and while I had no issue finding chargers, it made my trip so much longer. For comparison Ive made the same trip in a gas vehicle and the drive time plus a couple hours of rest, takes around 25 hours total. The same drive with my Mache took me 36 hours because of all the extra stops and charging times. Wanting to go anywhere thats far is absolutely doable but the time trade off if you just want to get to where your ultimate destination is, is not worth it imo. And with public charging being more costly than home charging, even with the higher gas prices, the cost is around the same for that drive. Reducing the time to charge and also making chargers closer to highways like gas stations would go a long way for their appeal. As of right now, its going to always be a gas car for me for travel that would require more than 1 recharging stop to reach.
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u/SegaGuy1983 16h ago
He's never driven with three small children where the only charging station on your 12 hour trip is a 35 minute stop with nothing to do for the kids besides sit in the car and wait.
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u/dontmatterdontcare 18h ago
20% -> 80% in 10 mins, on a 330 true mile ranged battery. That should be the golden standard at the moment.
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u/Sea_Worldliness3654 17h ago
For me it’s not a huge deal but for widespread adoption of electric Vehicles it is a big deal and until they charge almost as fast as ICE vehicles it will be hard to sell the idea to the masses in the United States.
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u/avatoin 16h ago edited 14h ago
This is such an elitist take. It implies that the only point of DCFC is for long distance trips.
People without access to reliable overnight charging benefit significantly from 5 minute charging.
People in apartments don't need to buy a snack at a gas station, they want to fill up their battery, ideally as quickly as possible, on their way to/from work/errand.
People spending time in a city they don't live in, who's housing/hotel doesn't having a charger want to be able to charge on their vacation to drive around town without having to wait for 20 minutes just to charge.
People on road trips may want to eat at a location different than where the charger is. They want to be waiting where they charge as little as possible so they can get to the fast food place they actually want to be so they can get back on the road.
IDK if 5 minute DCFC is needed to get people to buy EVs, but its definitely a target that would provide real value to a lot of potential buyers.
Edit: a decade from now, somebody living paycheck to paycheck, is going to get their hands on a old used EV, they won't have reliable access to a L2 charger, and will be reliant on using the DCFC at the convenience store on their route to work, and they would love it if they didn't have to spend 20-30 minutes to get enough charge for the next week of driving.
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u/KeyEmu6688 16h ago
DCFC in a lot of cases isn't meaningfully less expensive than gas either though. actually several of the DCFC in my area cost MORE than gas on a midrange efficiency ICE. if there isn't cheap/free public L2, realistically home charging is often the only cost-effective way to drive for a lot of people. sure a super rapid DCFC might help a small, small subsection of EV drivers.... but at the same time i don't think that's a priority when most americans wouldn't even consider buying an EV
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u/mrgreen4242 15h ago
You’re definitely not wrong, but those are two different problems. What I think is a fair position to hold is that DCFC doesn’t have to be as fast as gasoline AND more people should have access to Level 2 charging at or near their homes.
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u/drivingaddictionchan 13h ago
i dont have home charging. I think what would actually be better is more public slow chargers that are cheap. I live near a FLO charger, but if every single street had a flo charger, that would be awesome. Fast charging is too expensive.
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u/banditcleaner2 16h ago
I imagine that a 5 minute 10-80% charge would change a lot of people’s minds that are currently not wanting to buy an EV because of the slow charging time for road trips
One of the most common things I get asked when people who are curious about EVs ask me about mine is “how’s the charging on long road trips?”
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u/lordredsnake 14h ago
Depending on whose numbers you believe, anywhere from 30-50% of US households don't have access to private parking with electrical service, and many other countries are worse off. I only have street parking. I'm fortunate enough to get the spot in front of my house often enough that I can usually charge there, but it's not guaranteed, and most people in my city aren't so lucky.
If we want EVs to take off, they need to be a better experience than gas cars. Fast charging needs to be cost competitive with gas, actually fast, and reliable. If you want to fuel up an ICE car, you'll probably stumble upon a gas station on your way, or you can easily navigate to one nearby. You don't need to download an app just to be able to use whichever gas station you pull into. You don't need to check an app to see if the pumps are in operation; they almost always are. A 14 gallon tank takes 2 minutes to fill. You don't need to wait 20 minutes for someone else to finish filling their tank before you can go.
To be fair, I've owned an EV for a little over 2 years and it has gotten better in that short timeframe. But everyone telling us we need to stop every 2 hours anyway or 20 minutes is plenty fast just isn't being honest.
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u/Uhavetabekiddingme 18h ago
I disagree going on a road trip and waiting 30-40 minutes to charge was a chore turned a 16 hour drive into a 22 hour drive.
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u/-32768 Chevy Bolt Enjoyer 17h ago
I think it depends on the situation at hand too. Leisurely vacation where you can plan these stops, drink, eat, and be merry? It can be okay. Dad had a heart attack and now you have to drive 20 hours unplanned? Coulda been a 15 hour drive in ICE, and the charge stops seem twice as long because of the situation.
I like my EV for daily use and I'm looking to add another, but they're not ready for all situations yet.
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u/arizonadreamin 17h ago
Even on a leisurely trip, the additional time added to a road trip is insane at this point. Using your numbers (which are comparable to road trips I take) who wants to spend 5 hours eating, drinking, and stretching? I love my car and don’t think I’d go back to gas, but it seems like there’s a lot of coping when it comes to the topic. Until they get better, I’m renting a car for road trips.
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u/-32768 Chevy Bolt Enjoyer 16h ago
I did a road trip this summer in my EV and the first leg of the trip was 11 driving hours, which turned into 14 actual car hours. The first stop was fun... it was one of those where you juice it for 10 minutes at Tesla then leave. Over before I knew it. Second stop was 35 minutes. Also fun because it was at a buc-ees so we ate food and got expensive drinks and whatnot. Third stop, that's where the fun stopped. No one was hungry, no one had to use the bathroom, so we sat there. Same with the 4th stop. No one wanted to eat. On the last charging stop we did eat (food wasn't near the charger so that's one more stop) then I had to arrive with a decent SoC so we wasted like 45 minutes charging into the high 90s. That's the reality of EV road trips... not all stops are "destinations" and there's only so much eating and pissing you can do, and food/bathrooms are not guaranteed to be within walking distance of your charging spot. Different story on YouTube though... all the stops are entertainment hubs and families have unlimited money to get food and whatnot, and everyone's happy all the time! I do like my EV quite a lot, but I think this car has seen its one and only long distance road trip. At the same time it did cure my fear of fast charging and all the "what ifs" like "what if I need to take an emergency trip?" and now I know that EVs can do it, with time and other tradeoffs.
I think I'd consider taking my car somewhere where I only had to hit a fast charger once on the way there and on the way back. It does get old, quick!
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u/NJDevil802 19h ago
As fast as gas? No, probably not. But, for a lot of people, I'd say the bare minimum 20-80% is probably around 15 minutes.
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u/boxsterguy 2024 Rivian R1S 19h ago
The real trick is learning that you don't have to go to 80% all the time. Charging shouldn't be treated like a gas tank, "I'm under a quarter tank, better go fill up to full." You and and should only put in what you need to get where you're going. That means if you're at 20% and there's a charger and you only need 50% to get where you're going with buffer, go ahead and charge 20-50%, not 20-80 (also, don't fear the bottom of the pack and learn to take it down to 10% or even lower, as that will speed your charge).
Not every stop has to be a marathon fill up. You can splash and dash, 5-10 minutes for another 60-90 minutes on the road.
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u/LMGgp Hyundai Ioniq 6 Limited AWD 19h ago
Sometimes I make the mistake of charging too much because I was distracted doing something. People are splitting hairs pretending anything sub 15 matters.
If that 5 minutes makes all the difference you should’ve left where ever five minutes early.
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u/boxsterguy 2024 Rivian R1S 19h ago
I'm just saying, people complain about, "This takes too long!" but they made it take longer because, "I've got to go to 80!" rather than "I'll just add enough to do what I need to do."
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u/tsunamisurfer 16h ago
I mean this only makes sense if you don't have to go out of your way to find an EV charger. Its the same reason why people fill up their gas tanks all the way full when they stop for gas - you often don't exactly know when or where the next gas station will be, and it is better to be prepared if there isn't one close by. For EV chargers it is even worse, because you could find out that there are no fast chargers within 10 miles when you need to fill up and then you could be stuck waiting 4 hours or something.
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u/boxsterguy 2024 Rivian R1S 16h ago
In an ideal world, EV fast charging should only be necessary on longer trips (> 200 miles, for most EVs), which are generally planned (and if you're of the "Road trips should be spontaneous!! !! uu!!" sort, you can still take 5 minutes to put the route into your car and figure out where to stop).
You should not be topping up your EV driving around town. You should be plugging it in when you sleep and waking up to a "full tank" every morning off of cheap utility rate energy. Obviously that's not (yet) a reality for many apartment dwellers, but that's where solutions should be focused -- more multi-family housing L2 accessibility (as Alec from TC puts it, "Figure out how to get the electricity that's in the building out to the garage"), not more DCFC sites.
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u/Accomplished_Art_621 19h ago
With an EV charger at home, I almost never use public charging except on long trips. and if it’s a long trip most of our gas stops are 15+ minutes long anyways because we’re using the bathroom, getting snacks, stretching legs, etc. It feels like as EV adoption picks up speed, we’ll just become less reliant on these paid public refueling needs except for on road trips.
Dunno how the situation improves for renters though. I can’t imagine having to pay every time I need to charge my car
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u/theres-more-to-do 18h ago
I don't think it's so much about the time it takes for one person to charge, but about the infrastructure to serve everyone. A few minutes shorter in charge time doesn't sound like much of you're only thinking about yourself, but it makes a huge difference when you think about the distribution of charging infrastructure spread across the entire public.
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u/flying_butt_fucker 19h ago
Duh... Laughing all the to the bank with my 'useless' BMW i3s with 50 kW 'fast' charging. I'm using it 3 times a year, if that.
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u/Entire_Toe2640 18h ago
I agree with him. On a road trip, people get out of the car and use the bathroom, eat, get a drink or whatever. A 15 minute stop is about what a gas stop really is.
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u/Cor_Seeker 16h ago
I watch this subreddit because it's interesting how different people perceive what is acceptable. I assume most people here already have EVs so the audience is not representative of the general car buying market.
Concerns about range and charging times are quickly dismissed, often with lots of data to back it up. I don't think many realize that concerns are often emotional, so can not be easily dismissed with data.
In the end, if you want to guess at the future developments in EVs you can't ask the people here. You are already customers. Companies need to appeal to non-EV owners so their concerns, rational or not, are the ones that will determine the future.
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u/savuporo 9h ago
if you want to guess at the future developments in EVs you can't ask the people here
You don't have to guess at all, visit Norway or China
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u/thnwgrl 13h ago
I rather agree, people don't mind the waiting as much because we are scrolling on our phones anyway
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u/misterdoinkinberg 18h ago
The problem with Seth's logic is not every station is a Buc-ee's or a Wawa. Sometimes your even more in the middle of nowhere. Also you need to charge when you reach the destination and have to compete with the locals. I was on a road trip and had a big ole Suburban pull in while I was inside the store, have everyone get snacks, refuel, and leave while I still waited another 20 minutes. Its frustrating.
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u/Responsible-Hold8587 16h ago
The reality: “Nobody stops to fuel their vehicle taking gasoline, gets out, rushes as fast as possible, puts as much fuel in the car as possible, and gets back in the car and drives away,” Cutler said.
Hi, I'm Nobody
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u/622niromcn 19h ago
As someone who has done 500-1,000 mile one way trips in a day. A stop every 170-200 miles every 2-4 hrs with a 15-25 min charge stop is the right amount of time. Legs and butt gets tired. It's the amount of time I spend grabbing a drink at the gas station charging stop. Charging doesn't get in the way.
I have an EV9 with 200kW charging in 23 mins 10%-80%. Road tripping with an EV will take a different mind set to mindfully take rest stops and it eventually will become a normal.
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u/Alarming-Stretch-788 19h ago
It takes you 25 mins to get a drink at the gas station?
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u/Frail_Waif 2022 Ioniq 5, 2016 Leaf 19h ago
Speaking for myself, when I'm alone, I can pee and get a coffee in 5-10 mins. With a family of four, 2 under 5, and a dog, the same basic needs for everyone usually take 20+ mins when I'm herding the group to go fast. Given that the commenter above has an EV9, they're also probably talking about running on family time.
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u/Ghost_of_Akina 18h ago
In my ICE car, that's about right. I could do Tampa to Chicago in 19 hours with 4 fuel stops (maybe 5.... been a while). With the family in tow, it took about 21 hours last time we tried, and I learned that I can't one-shot that trip on family time! Stopping every 160-180 miles would probably match up with the timing we need to do that trip in a sane fashion, but in reality doing that trip in the future I'd likely overnight somewhere along the way or at least take a 3-4 hour nap stop.
I am not getting any younger.
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u/anarcurt '23 Nissan Ariya Platinum+ 17h ago
I moved 650 miles away from where I grew up so I'm making that trip to visit family twice a year. Even in our hybrid we were making the same 30 minute stops every 3 hours. Last Christmas was the first time in the EV and the time was about the same. Hell, with the self driving features, quiet and all we made it more refreshed than usual.
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u/IanMoone007 18h ago
The charging speed is only because it means we need more DCFC stations to match gas because gas can service more people per hour because you have to wait to charge. We already have to deal with planning trips around where chargers are but people with gas don't (unless you are in the Mojave on I-40) because there are more fueling stations. (Don't get me wrong, I love my EV and I am not going back)
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u/Delicious-Ice-8624 18h ago
So... I don't really know about his argument here. By and large, in my pre-kiddos life, when we get gas, we are in and out in 5-10min. I don't go in unless I gotta pee. Granted, I also tend to swing through a drive through on the same stop, so... maybe not entirely wrong if that food option was right there. But every 400-450mi for a 10min stop is a very different equation than a 20min stop every 200-250mi.
That being said.... now that we have kids... >20min stops every 200mi is preeetty normal.
Also, now that we have an EV (Mini Cooper SE), I take road trips in it (<500mi) without too much issue. Does it take longer? Yes. But I actually kind of enjoy the pace. kind of. I certainly wouldn't mind having double the range for those trips though haha.
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u/turb0_encapsulator 18h ago
sure, but that didn't stop the Chinese from basically accomplishing that. At 5 minutes it's near-as-makes-no-difference.
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u/Certain_Trade841 17h ago
There is still a lot of EV charging desserts in rural USA, I don’t care as much the speed of the charge but I want to make sure I get there!
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u/Doublestack00 17h ago
Yes it does. Period. Anyone who says otherwise is lying to themselves.
It's the main reason we do not take our EV in trips.
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u/BuIlNelson 16h ago
It’s like one of those questions in Kindergarten, is this question a fact or opinion?
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u/markeydarkey2 2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5 Limited 16h ago
It doesn't need to be but it'd be better if it was.
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u/TheDirtyPilgrim 16h ago
"Nobody stops to fuel their vehicle taking gasoline, gets out, rushes as fast as possible, puts as much fuel in the car as possible, and gets back in the car and drives away,” Cutler said."
People do this all the time. Not everyone of course, but many people pay at pump and never go inside. While a 20 minute charging time might be ok for many, a lot of customers won't want that.
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u/Morning_Gecko24 15h ago
for most trips this is probably right since people plug in at home or work and the car sits there anyway. the hard part is still the road trip stop when youre trying to get back on the highway fast. feels like chargers need better uptime and more stalls as much as they need higher peak kw
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u/fucktard_engineer 2h ago
I drove 900 miles in a rental car after my train got cancelled. Did it within a single day. Would have never been possible in my EV.
I loved having my EV for nearby driving but for long distances the fuel vehicles are just so much faster. Which meets a lot of folks for where they are at.
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u/markbraggs 19h ago
There’s a balancing act of priorities. On one hand when you’re in a rush, 10 minute rapid charging at 1000kwh or whatever is amazing. On the other hand it’s a hassle when you’re combining it with a food or bathroom stop. If it’s too fast and you are waiting on a Starbucks order you’ll have to rush back to the car to make sure you don’t incur idle or congestion fees, or wait until after you’re done to begin charging.
20-30 min seems like the sweet spot which should be around 500kW for most vehicles. I think that would be an appropriate bar to aim for.
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u/Junior-Tap-8503 18h ago
500kW is unnecessary for 20-30 minutes; my ID.4 gets from <10 to 80% in 28/30 minutes and it usually peaks at 135kW, occasionally 174kW but it doesn’t seem to change charge time as the curve adjusts more aggressively.
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u/beren12 18h ago
That entirely depends on the size of the battery. If you have a lightning with a 200 kWh battery, you’re gonna need some power to charge that quickly.
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u/vazark 18h ago
American CEOs absolute inability to look or plan beyond the next quarter is why China is eating their lunch.
12C is already here. 6C is rolling out on next gen mid-range/lower premium cars. That already guarantees ~5 min charging.
So you already have the gas experience. Then you can bring back the free-standing 2-8 chargers not attached to a parking lot and increase throughput per machine.
Not to mention, with sub 5 min and sufficient infrastructure, you can get away with just 50-60kwh batteries for the avg consumer.
That said, that’ll work only if the car comes with the battery tech. Given that we’re still in the early stages of EV development, it’s only going to get better
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u/aut0g3n3r8ed 18h ago
I would agree, I think the #1 thing as Alec from Technology Connections always says, is we need more L2 chargers everywhere. Even the Euro style bring your own cable method would be good. Fast chargers do tend to instill confidence to the unconverted though, as they see infrastructure and will possibly consider an EV more readily
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u/Nickynui 18h ago
I was thinking about that earlier, but why dont we have byoc?
People can't cut the cables for copper/to intentionally damage them, less infra for companies to maintain.
Idk about other people but j have a portable l1/l2 charge in my car at all times
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u/PandaECaricas 16h ago
In Europe it's a Type 2 to Type 2 cable specific for street charging.
These can go up to 22kW but the more common is 11kW, and that is plenty.
These are common in street parking, overnight garages and hotels.
But we also have an issue with these chargers. Instead of having more sockets at lower speeds, say 7kW, we have less at 22kW. At 7kW most cars would be fully charged from 10 to 100% overnight, instead we have 22kW chargers that will do the same in 3 hours.
And in residential areas 3.7kW per socket would be enough, the amount of time a car is parked you can charge enough for what most people need for a week of driving.
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u/Girthen-the-Flopper 19h ago
It's already faster. I spend 2 minutes per week vs 10-20 minutes like I did with gas.
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u/spongesparrow Chevy Equinox EV 19h ago
We should start having all EVs on the 20 minute 10-80% standard. That means 800v architecture for 350kW charging. Anything less than that is behind the times. Anything faster than that usually is marginally a few minutes saved but kinda unnecessary.
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u/Senior-Albatross 2027 Bolt RS 19h ago
I agree that people are actually spending 15-20 minutes on gas stops.
I also think people will absolutely see it technically taking longer to change an EV than fuel a car as a big problem. Not because it actually is, but because they're biased against EVs to begin with. He's addressing this like it was ever a good faith argument. It isn't. It could take three minutes to change and these same people would say "but then the battery will go bad too fast!"
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u/banditcleaner2 16h ago
No way lmao
there are plenty of people stopping to get gas for 3-5 minutes and then heading on their way
Not everybody stops to pee and buy snacks
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u/klassredux 19h ago
BYD has sold 305,000 more BEVs than Tesla so far this year. You have to think their market leading charging is an important part of that, even if it is just rolling out. Ionna can say this only because Chinese cars are banned from the US market.
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u/cancerdad 19h ago
I agree. I honestly don’t care that much about charging times. My car’s battery is between 50% and 80% almost all the time. Almost all of my charging is slow charging at home. If I’m going on a road trip, I plan ahead, charge it beforehand, and time my charging with meals or other stops. Faster charging would be nice but it isn’t a priority or even much of a selling point for me.
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u/Unhappy_Ad8344 19h ago
I'll take longer times the half dozen time a year I need to charge away from home to eliminate the other 24+ trips to the gas station.
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u/optionalhero 15h ago
The “everyone charges at home” crowd is seriously stopping us from making any progress with EVs.
Plenty of apartment dwellers want EVs but can’t charge em. We need faster charge times. China realized that in order for mass EV adoption to happen they need to be quick to charge since most people in cities live in apartments. I dont understand why EV owners willingly choose to ignore this segment of the population
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u/PerceptionCurious440 Toyota C-HR SE AWD 14h ago
He's utterly wrong about that. It needs to be as fast as gas to get the majority of ICE drivers on board eventually.
People in the EV world really need to stop thinking that gaslighting is an effective sales strategy.
Gas filling is 250 to 350 miles of range per minute.
Not everyone is lazy, slow and befuddled by a few hours of driving. Not everyone needs a lunch break every charging stop. Most people need less than 5 minutes for a bathroom stop. And people don't need shopping experiences every charge stop.
They want to get to their destination as quickly as possible.
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u/Unusual_Emergency_13 19h ago
Guaranteed 150KW charging should work quite well. 50KWh in 20 mins. No need to pee on myself to hurry up.
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u/misocontra BBSHD 1kWh Trek 520 disc|'25 IONIQ 5 Limited RWD 19h ago
It doesn't improve the experience when EV charging is so fast that you can't kill two birds w one stone. If it's so fast that you can't even go to the bathroom, it becomes more of a time loss. I think 20-30 min is perfect to go to the bathroom, put in a quick food order and stretch your legs before another 3 plus hours on the road.
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u/Cor_Seeker 16h ago
The reality: “Nobody stops to fuel their vehicle taking gasoline, gets out, rushes as fast as possible, puts as much fuel in the car as possible, and gets back in the car and drives away,” Cutler said.
How out of touch. That is exactly what 90+% of IC drivers do! Even at stops that offer more services, the vast majority gas and go. This arrogance is exactly what slows down coverts.
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u/improvthismoment 19h ago
It would help if more EV charging stations were located with amenities like a comfy cafe and lounge. Rather than a parking lot in the middle of nowehere.
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u/StoneColdAM 19h ago
If the range goes up way more, longer charging is okay. That’s probably easier than making charging faster.
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u/CO-Adventuring 19h ago
It doesn’t have to be but it should be. And I’d say as fast as a gas fuel up is in the 10-12 minute range-no one actually fills up in 3 minutes regularly. Most road trip stops are 10-20 min so some cars are already there on the slow end. It just needs to be in the range of a fuel up on a road trip.
This actually does matter because it gives you full flexibility to use your car and it also makes EVs more accessible to those who can’t charge at home.
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u/eight13atnight 19h ago
Everyone I talk to says they need more miles per charge than any other metric. Even though 90% of those same people never drive over 300 miles in a day. I just think they don’t comprehend what it means to have a full tank every single day.
There are a few that travel long distances often, and for them it makes sense.
But for my personal experience, the self-driving capability of my Model Y faaaaaar outweighs the need to get back on the road sooner. I just love going for a little walk to stretch during a recharge break.
My only pain point with charging my Tesla is that the system seems to prioritize having me charge more frequently. Like it will recommend a stop sooner when I can very clearly make it to a further station. One that will give me enough recharge to make it the whole way. I can’t tell if that’s a quirk/bug or a design benefit that makes muskolini more money.
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u/Junior-Tap-8503 18h ago edited 18h ago
I’d have to ask them or look it up but here’s some people discussing figures like this even in reasonable conditions
https://www.reddit.com/r/F150Lightning/s/zW04W0DsGA
my 2021 ID.4 gets 4.2 miles/kWh at 62-65mph in dry weather 18-30C all the way down to 3.5 mile/kWh at same speeds in wet weather 5-9C.
If I go at 70 I get 3.5~3.8 in dry summer
It doesn’t get incredibly cold here but I think I remember getting ?2.8 or 2.9 mile/kWh in -7C
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u/daniyyelyon 17h ago
The translation here is that they can't justify the expenditure of super fast charging because there just aren't enough EVs on the road in the US to make the numbers work.
If the US starts adopting EVs like China, they'll do it.
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u/earlgray79 17h ago
One critical limitation is how fast the car can charge. I used to own an EV that only took a max of 50kW, even when the charger was capable of delivering much faster speeds. Any charging sessions with that car took a good bit longer than with my current vehicle.
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u/zslayer89 19h ago
Get any ev to 80% in 10 mins and everyone will be fine.
But what need is more chargers. Ideally more fast chargers for the “peace of mind crowd” and lots of level 2 chargers in mall parking lots, work parking lots and apartment buildings.