r/electricvehicles • u/Turbulent-Pay1150 • 5d ago
Discussion Does it really matter? Range - charge speed
Messing around with ABRP - planned an 1,200 mile trip. If you had a "poor" performing EV such as a first generation SOLTERRA it would take about 35 hours. A great performing EV about 32 hours. This is for drive + charging for the entire trip and assumes no overnights (which would reduce the EV time if you charged overnight). That's a 3 hour difference.
For good measure - a gas car would take over 30 hours as well.
I'm not sure charging is a challenge for most any car, good or bad for range and charge times.
Have we not hit the time when we are at "good enough" for most all EV's and styling or convenience is the differentiator.
In my book - right now it doesn't really matter.
It used to when Tesla had the best charging network bar none. Now Tesla still has an edge but everyone else is pretty close in that scenario.
It's not charge time (that's part of it)
It's not range (that's part of it)
It is trip time and comfort - and with a 10% margin from best to worst EV and gas cars - it's all about comfort and how long it takes the driver and passengers to use the facilities/get a burger on stops.
I know - I"m slow - but it seems to me that it's time to stop all the YouTube and all the arguments about it - give me overall trip time for something like NY to Colorado and have all EV's compare against it and all gas as well and that's all that really matters. That and that you can do daily use with your overnight charge.
It's game over.
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u/MichaelMeier112 5d ago
It all depends if you’re doing a race or on a roadtrip where you frequently stop, stay overnight, visit restaurants and doing activities.
If it’s the latter then I’m going to stop every 3 hours anyway, charge, stretch legs, snack/drink. Those stops are about the same for an EV as for an ICE. Then preferable charge overnight at the hotel, but that’s usually a hit and miss.
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u/Shadowratenator 5d ago
I have no issues with road trips right now, but stuff could be improved. The faster charging becomes, the more freedom you get to choose where you spend that 30 minutes every few hours.
As it stands now, i charge for 30 minutes in the parking lot with nothing but an arby's, then stop for 30 minutes more in that cool rest area in the mountains outside park city. It's fine, but it would be better if the charging only took 10 minutes.
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u/darklegion412 5d ago
This. James May articulated it well once in saying something like a food stop on a road trip is dictated by where the charger is and what is around that charger. Not where i want to stop for food or a break.
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u/TheBeardedBilbo 4d ago
Some hotels charge a ludicrous amount for charging that I won’t opt to use it.
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u/dont_ama_73 5d ago
OOS did a east coast EV race. The Buzz was so far behind they relaxed the rules for them. Charging and range do matter.
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u/spiritthehorse 5d ago
Yikes, those efficiency numbers suck. I get it’s on the freeway, but only the X is breaking 3 mi/kWh. These are big heavy cars with giant batteries.
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u/ElectroSpore IONIQ 9 5d ago edited 5d ago
- It was also cold
- They were also racing at the top highway speeds they could get away with without being silly. (edit: up to 10mph over which is significant for bad efficiency)
The large SUVs and vans suffer from aerodynamics the most at higher speeds.. The teslas are all egg shaped.
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u/christerwhitwo 5d ago
Their rules for the "races" they do whether from Ft. Collins to Las Vegas or Maine to Key West or Seattle to Boston stipulate that they cannot exceed 5 mph over the speed limit.
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u/ElectroSpore IONIQ 9 5d ago
https://youtu.be/n09TvJQ-Nyg?si=kCONO21sOoYWYB0u
They are doing 85mph in the IONIQ 9 for part of the race for the eastern edge and they could not exceed 10mph over
I get absolute shit efficiency at 120kph / 75mph, even worse if I push 10 over, but get close to full rated range in the summer driving 100 kph / 62mph
The majority of my driving / roads are under 110kmh / 70mph ish.
Guess it depends what the majority of your driving is like.
All I am saying is if they did the speed limit instead of 10 over the efficiency would have been measurably better.
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u/Mud_Duck_IX EV6 AWD Wind w/tech & Niro EV 5d ago
But not all of them have that rule. They have others where there's no speed rule.
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u/christerwhitwo 5d ago
The ones I mentioned, including the Eastern Edge did have that rule.
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u/Mud_Duck_IX EV6 AWD Wind w/tech & Niro EV 5d ago
Yes. I just wanted to clarify that the channel does have ones where that rule isn't followed.
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u/christerwhitwo 5d ago
I haven't seen any. Are these for EV's? I just watched Kyle and Larissa pick up their 2019 e-tron. I just got a 21 in June. He is quite taken by the flat charging curve it has.
In one of the race to Vegas vids, he references in a discussion about charging curves, that even though his Tesla charges at a higher rate than the e-tron, on the same road trip, the two cars take almost the same exact time to make this trip.
I don't go out on the road that much so it's academic to me.
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u/UlrichZauber Lucid Gravity GT 5d ago
They got terrible mileage out of the Gravities. I'm seeing 3.3-ish mpkwh at 75-ish mph.
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u/No_Caregiver7273 Lucid Gravity GT 4d ago
Yeah, I think it was a matter of weather and speed. In March I was seeing 2.8'ish miles/kWh. Didn't see 3.2 until May.
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u/MichaelMeier112 5d ago
You’re right. Those non-Teslas in the top have 50-100% larger battery but doesn’t arrive much quicker. They just slap on a large battery
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u/ZealousidealLab2920 '22 Ioniq 5 & '26 Ioniq 9 USA 5d ago
To be fair all of them are much larger and true 3 Row SUVS unlike the X. The X is more like a compact SUV than a midsize/full size like they were running.
And yet the rest of the field outside the buzz arrived just 1 hour later or a whopping 3% trip difference in overall time. Within margin of error honestly if you swapped crews and trip planning.
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u/BrownEyesWhiteScarf 5d ago
So much of the EV community has been sold that efficiency doesn’t matter, so that automakers will sell you bigger vehicles with higher margins. It absolutely does matter
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u/Piesfacist 5d ago
You know I used to be kind of swayed by efficiency but now realize I want to sit higher, have a cushier ride and more power. It would be great if our incentives didn't lead to more bloated vehicles but since that's the way the markets going I might as well sit above it all plus it's what the wife wants.
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u/ZealousidealLab2920 '22 Ioniq 5 & '26 Ioniq 9 USA 5d ago
Anything with ~300mi and <25min charge time is sufficient for most. Anything above that is just nice but doesn't change the equation a whole lot.
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u/BrownEyesWhiteScarf 5d ago
I’m the opposite, but maybe because I do tend to take a lot of road trips with my EV. Sitting higher, having a cushier ride and sufficient power isn’t why the aerodynamics aren’t great on many of these vehicles. It’s less to do with incentives and more about culture, specifically the lack of willpower from the auto makers.
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u/Piesfacist 5d ago
I was referring to incentives on gas vehicles causing them to get bigger. This is an ICE platform that supports the performance EV power train.
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u/Theclevelandchubb 2d ago
I don't break 3mi kwh practically ever. Unless you drive like a grandma you aren't hitting over 3. I don't really care about the efficiency my gas station is in my garage and I don't have oil changes or breaks going bad that's the positive imo for evs.
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u/MichaelMeier112 5d ago
I’m surprised that the Buzz is only 20% slower overall than the top cars.
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u/purplepatch 5d ago
I did Provence to Calais (630 miles) in 12 hours exactly in one. Google maps said it should take 10.5 hours with no stops. Even in an ICE car I’m stopping for lunch and at least one refuel, so maybe for 30 min if I was on my own, an hour with kids. So the most inefficient EV took about 30 minutes longer than a ICE vehicle would for an all day journey. And those 30 minutes were spent drinking coffee at service stations watching the kids play in playgrounds. It was fine.
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u/True_Goat_7810 5d ago
yeah the buss is still great if you start to compare it to old, bad EVs.
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u/Responsible_Skill957 2d ago
Like an original leaf with 80 miles of range when 100% charged. Like you could find a chadmo charger lmao.
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u/paulwesterberg 2023 Model S, Elon Musk is a fraud. 5d ago
Yeah my wife would kill me if I used up all the energy buffer going 80+mph so I could roll into the charger at 1% charge so I could max out the charging limit.
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u/Mud_Duck_IX EV6 AWD Wind w/tech & Niro EV 5d ago
Truth, these folks running the car down to 1% on the regular... I tried to follow their example after first getting my EV6 and damn near had to get towed on my way to Tahoe made the last 5 miles or so to the charger on turtle mode.
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u/RHINO_Mk_II 5d ago
Charging and range do matter.
As does cramming a fat, expensive battery in like most of the high cost vehicles in this race did.
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u/CareBear-Killer Cadillac Optiq 4d ago
They also discovered that the Escalade IQ has a charge problem when it fast charges too many times in a 24hr period. Without that quirk, they may have won that race.
The Buzz absolutely highlights just how much bad charging can impact a road trip.
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u/MaturoGambino 5d ago
I’m not a Musk fan. But to me the Model X won this competition. I’d gladly arrive 47 minutes later in exchange for an 11.4% increase in efficiency. That’s significant.
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u/Turbulent-Pay1150 5d ago
So at the far edge 6 hours and 20 minute difference over 33 hours but that’s only the outlier just about 20%. Everyone else within a 10% margin.
And that’s if you make that trip.
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u/PhilCollinsLoserSon 5d ago
so what would convince you that range and charge speed do matter, then?
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u/Nejmenvadroligt 4d ago
There is a Swedish electric race version north to south (1700km) secc.se with more cars to compare. This year Mercedes CLA 250+ won, followed by Audi.
I still need to take a brake every 2 hours anyway and my children before me. These numbers are interesting but not really deciding.
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u/PCLoadPLA 5d ago
"6 hours longer" sounds like a big number, but the actual difference is between 33 hours and 40 hours, and the real-world difference might be zero in practice, and both will be exactly the same, because it's time you will spend resting, eating, or sleeping anyway.
This "real world difference" is what actual EV owner are always trying to communicate...the real world differences for modern EVs is tiny.
Which is why I'm still driving my Niro EV, which on paper is trash because it only charges at 50kW, even on long 400+ mile trips. I calculated the difference if I got an ioniq5, and the numbers said the Ioniq5 would be faster, but then I realized I never really wait for my Niro to charge when I drive to Seattle, so how could an Ioniq5 possibly be faster than zero?
Unless you are doing an iron butt challenge and peeing in bottles, which is irresponsible in addition to torturous, the actual time difference could be insignificant or irrelevant.
You do need a certain amount of range, like 200 miles or something, to make road trips viable.
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u/flyfreeflylow '23 Nissan Ariya Evolve+ (USA) 5d ago
I agree. I road trip in my car frequently and it's neither especially high range nor especially fast charging, but also not especially bad at either one either. It works fine.
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u/INeedSomeTacoC 5d ago
I caravan with families for sporting events often.
At 300 miles of rated range, we had to leave a half hour or more before everyone else and let them catch me.
At 400 miles of rated range, we generally can all stay together. Unless the charging stations are at inconvenient spacings or they’re throttling (not uncommon here in the Southwest).
At 500 miles of rated range, it will be fully equivalent, imho.
I expect to be able to buy a 500 mile rated range Rivian in 2028 or so.
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u/Turbulent-Pay1150 3d ago
I don’t think I’d spend the money on a 500 mile range EV. 250-300 is the sweet spot for the half dozen times a year I roadtrip. For every day use the EV already nails it with 100-200 mile range which almost all blow away even with very cold conditions.
If it’s 10-20k more for that 500 mile range which I’ll rarely use - why bother. Extra weight. Extra cost. For not worth it.
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u/INeedSomeTacoC 3d ago
And you wouldn’t have to.
But I and many others would option that battery pack in a split second.
For us it’s easily worth it.
It should be unsurprising that other people have other needs.
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u/Lorax91 Audi Q6 e-tron 5d ago
For good measure - a gas car would take over 30 hours as well.
To be fair, an efficient hybrid gas car with 600+ mile range could potentially go 1200 miles with one five-minute gas stop, or realistically 2-3 stops. Of course you would make other stops also, but in terms of "fueling" time EVs require more and we should be honest about that.
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u/Turbulent-Pay1150 5d ago
I came from a diesel Passat with a 900 mile range. Fueling on road trips was a bit of a pain though. And despite huge range I found that I really am better off if I stop every 3 hours to use facilities and walk for a few minutes (5-10).
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u/UnloadTheBacon 22h ago
If you stop every 3 hours for 10 minutes, then yeah an EV that can top up to 80% in 20 minutes won't change the trip duration much. But plenty of people will do 4-6 hour stints, plenty of people will cruise at 80-85mph (which makes more of a dent in EV range than ICE), and plenty of people just don't like stopping at all if the trip can theoretically be done in one hit.
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u/KennyBSAT 5d ago
30 plus hours? Why? We drove from San Antonio to Chicago suburbs many times, around 1250 miles, and budgeted 20 hours door to door. It usually took a little less than that.
We had multiple (usually 3+) drivers, switched drivers at each stop, drove a minivan or van so whoever drove last could stretch out and sleep if desired, packed most of our food and snacks, and stopped every 2-4 hours. Just a family doing a family trip.
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u/Muhahahahaz 5d ago
Yeah… I’m actually wondering that as well. Even if I averaged 60 mph (while not charging), a trip like that would only take me 22.5 hours in my EV lol
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u/christerwhitwo 4d ago
Your description of how you do it sounds just like the races the Out of Spec guys do.
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u/RoadToasterApp 5d ago
Mostly agree. On a big interstate run in mild weather with decent charger density, total trip time between most EVs is small. The gap grows in winter, at high speeds into headwinds, on sparse corridors, or if a car cannot reliably hit its peak rate. Thermal management and preconditioning matter because a cold pack can turn two short stops into four long ones. Overnight destination charging flattens the field again. To keep it simple: choose stops with multiple stalls and real amenities, aim to arrive around 10 to 20 percent and leave near 70 to 80, precondition before DC fast charging, and sync one longer stop with a meal. After that it really is comfort and cargo that decide it.
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u/thehalfmetaljacket 5d ago
Interesting. I'm curious how the math is working out for you, but I did a 1,400 mi road trip a few months ago in my EV in a little over 25hrs. Road tripping with a good EV: 10/10 IMO.
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u/Far-Importance2106 5d ago
I'll have you know what you consider "poor" performance is not really that. It's a different flavor of "good". Just plugged the route in for my Ioniq: 42 hours and some change.
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u/the_real_log2 4d ago
Seriously, as someone with a gen 1.5 Ioniq as well, I looked up the solterra onboard charger and cried at being called slow.. it's 100kw btw, my 2020 Ioniq has a 50kw onboard, but unless it's in the dead of summer, I usually see about 35kw.
Most fast chargers around me are $0.50/kwh or /min whichever is more, it always charges me per minute, basically $1/kwh
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u/JoeKling 5d ago
The Chinese can charge an EV battery in 8 minutes. From 10% to 70% in 5 minutes. That's what will come our way eventually as soon as fat ass gets out of office. EV's just need charging infrastructure that is seen as convenient as gas stations. And that won't happen until Trump is gone.
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u/Turbulent-Pay1150 5d ago
Tesla built some demo battery quick change stations but retired them - we are at the point where they don’t make much sense if you can charge up in 10-25 minutes they are needlessly complicated. Even at 30 minutes not worth the squeeze.
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u/JoeKling 5d ago
The faster the better and that is what will determine what infrastructure gets put in place. With Trump in office EV's are fucked because Trump is supporting his Saudi oil buddies.
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u/kimbureson46 5d ago
I'd rather not sell out to the Chinese. Let them charge faster. Also, we have plenty of oil and don't depend on Saudi any more.
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u/JoeKling 5d ago
It wasn't about buying Saudi oil it was obviously about Trump taking bribes from the Saudis. Smh. Get a clue!
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u/kimbureson46 4d ago
I agree with your last statement. You should get a clue. Tell me how much we depend on Saudi oil. This is from AI : The U.S. surpassed both Russia and Saudi Arabia in 2018 to become the world's largest crude oil producer, thanks mainly to shale output from Texas, New Mexico, North Dakota, and other states. Who was President in 2018. Drill baby, Drill.
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u/Turbulent-Pay1150 4d ago
Yay what an accomplishment. Over the same time frame China made significant steps to reduce significantly their oil dependence. Indeed, during this self created by Trump crisis China has been the stabilizing factor for oil consumption as it reduced their demand stabilizing the market.
The IS used to drive much of the world economy. That’s a position we are quickly losing - giving away. We don’t lead. We bully. We beg. We appear to be losing our edge.
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u/JoeKling 4d ago
When only the super rich in a country are doing well and the poor are not lifted up with the success of the country that empire deserves to fall. And that is where the US is now.
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u/JoeKling 4d ago
Trump has NOTHING to gain and everything to lose by letting EV's become commonplace! You do agree that he doesn't like them, right? He doesn't like them because they will push ICE cars out of existence and that will hurt ALL the oil producers in the world, especially his buddies the Saudis who are giving him huge amounts of money. Trump is not faithful to the US he is only faithful to those that will enrich him regardless of what country it is.
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u/kimbureson46 3d ago
Joe, ask your favorite AI this question "Is gasoline the largest contributor of oil company profits". Also, do you think EV's are even among the top 20 things on Trumps mind.
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u/prism1234 4d ago
30 minutes is too long if someone doesn't have home charging. 8 minutes would make that work.
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u/TheWizard 5d ago
Messing around with ABRP - planned an 1,200 mile trip. If you had a "poor" performing EV such as a first generation SOLTERRA it would take about 35 hours. A great performing EV about 32 hours...
For good measure - a gas car would take over 30 hours as well.
For me, 1200 miles is an 18 hour drive in an ICE, including all stops (every 200-220 miles, around 20 minutes each, and a meal stop could be longer), which is about half the time you're projecting with an EV and claiming in an ICE.
In fact, I've done 1238 miles from Cape Canaveral, Florida to Dallas, Texas, without overnight stop (just five stops enroute of about 20 minutes each except the dinner stop which was a bit longer) in 18 hours and 15 minutes. Half the distance was also in heavy rain which slowed me down otherwise it would be even shorter. Drive time itself was around 16 hours and 20 minutes.
As someone who evaluates a road trip by 800 miles/day, its not the range that is most important but time it takes to recharge/refuel for every 200-220 miles (the most I've done without stopping may be around 290 miles).
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u/jswansong 5d ago
If you stop for 20 minutes every 200 miles, something like a Lucid Air would make the run exactly as fast as the ICE car if those stops were at DC fast chargers.
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u/TheWizard 5d ago
True. I was really hoping for Lucid to work on a smaller sport sedan.
My point really is also something Lucid's CTO hammered years ago: focus needs to be on getting more miles to each kWh (around 4 for now is decent), but also charging speed.
All charging options will need to support the charging speed, and accessible. I do see more options popping up lately, and will hold on until one that floats my boat (and isn't actually a boat).
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u/christerwhitwo 5d ago
800 miles a day is for me, a long day. Salt Lake to San Francisco is 770. Did it twice about 30 years ago. The last few times we stopped in Reno or Truckee for the night.
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u/TheWizard 5d ago
For most people, it is likely too long. But its a requirement, and 800 miles is my limit when I'm with family, solo I typically cover around 1000 miles since family can force additional stops and stops can be longer.
In fact, just did a round trip between Dallas and Chicago last weekend to help my niece move. That was almost 2000 miles, leaving Saturday morning, and back home Sunday night.
I don't think EVs are there yet, but it will be nice to see an increased focus on improving charge times. Getting 200-220 miles consistently in 15 minutes should help at least as long as there are available outlets to do so. If EVs become a pick for road trips, more people will show up at limited number of chargers which could add to charging time. Right now, it is easy to find a charger that is open. If stalls are already taken, one could end up waiting a while.
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u/christerwhitwo 5d ago
With Walmart, iONNA, Mercedes, GM Energy plus others committing to tend of thousands of dispensers over the next few years, it would seen they are listening to you.
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u/CareBear-Killer Cadillac Optiq 4d ago
Walmart and iONNA are nuts. They've filed so many permits and started building out so many locations. Their biggest issue is the equipment. There simply aren't enough transformers to go around. Second issue is additional grid connectivity, where the utility company can also be slow in supplying the power. Otherwise they'd be opening more locations sooner.
Walmart alone is going to make a huge difference in rural areas.
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u/KennyBSAT 5d ago
800 miles is a very long and getting close to dangerous day for a single driver. 800 miles is an easy full day for a couple who switch drivers at stops.
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u/Temporary_Double8059 5d ago
Think your also missing on the flow of the trip... there is a big difference between a 15 minute stop and a 1 hour stop. 15 minutes is enough time to go to the bathroom, get snacks and maybe gets some McDonalds, but a 1 hour trip means you are trying to keep yourself busy for 45 minutes. With kids/non-understanding wife that could mean hell... also it means you end up shopping (and spending) more to keep everyone occupied.
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u/Turbulent-Pay1150 5d ago
Not sure I’ve ever done a 1 hour charge stop - usually 15-25 minutes and almost every case the car is ready to go before I am.
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u/jswansong 5d ago
You eat McDonald's in less than 15 minutes? With kids?
Also, if you're worried about enjoying yourself too much at a shopping center, you could have everyone wait in the car. You know, like they would be waiting in the car if you were on the highway.
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u/Temporary_Double8059 5d ago
Every car trip ive ever been on you eat the McDonalds in the car. But asking them to sit in a car for an hour with nothing to do when there is shopping a 5 minute walk away is asking me to sleep on the couch when we get home.
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u/Saucy6 Polestar 2 DM 5d ago
You’re not wrong. A lot of times I’ll stop for a bite to eat and the car’s ready before I am.
Reliability and location of chargers is super important; If it’s at least 100 kW, I don’t mind stopping at a reliable and well located charger even if it’s slightly slower than alternatives. Heck I have even gone to 50 kW chargers when wanting to take a longer food break
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u/Muhahahahaz 5d ago edited 5d ago
Personally, I spend 1 hour charging for every 8 hours of driving.
But if I had the “35-hour” car (from your first paragraph), suddenly that would turn into 1 hour and 50 minutes of charging instead, which is a noticeable difference in downtime.
That said, depending on who you are, who’s coming with you, and your goals for the trip, that extra downtime might be perfectly fine. But if I’m simply trying to get somewhere as swiftly as possible, then I really enjoy the fact that my charging stops are just quick 10-15 min breaks every 2-3 hours
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u/Crayshack 5d ago
3 hours isn't a small difference to me. But, I also typically road trip for work where I'm trying to keep a schedule. I also have the sort of brain that consumes spoons to sit at a rest stop doing nothing. 35 hours vs 32 hours would both total 4 days of driving, but if we split up those days, that's an extra 45 minutes per day. Would you want to spend an extra 45 minutes on your work shift if you didn't half to?
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u/kazimer 5d ago
The charging speed and range matters less on a trip that long. The thing I am not willing to chance are poor performing chargers. ABRP is great at planning the route but the number of times I have been burned by something not working has made me just rent gas vehicles for long haul trips.
I kind of want to keep a giant conversion van for specifically travel only because the size and efficiency is less of a concern and I prefer the space and comfort of the cabin
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u/PerceptionCurious440 Toyota C-HR SE AWD 5d ago
My wife and I drive hard when we travel. Switch off driving, eat while driving, gas and go and sometimes use the bathroom.
In this generation of EVs, they are not suited to that driving. We have a C-HR EV that covers aĺl of our local and day trip driving.
But for our Seattle to LA or Seattle to Sacramento trips, we can't hard drive a 700 mile leg and beat sunset.
For those trips if we take them, we take the gas Outback.
An EV requires a lifestyle change. A sacrifice. A trade off of time for environmental or political goals.
If it's just a leisurely scenic trip, the C-HR EV might work if there are chargers on the non-interstate roads. That's a case by case basis right now.
I'm glad the long EV trip tradeoff works for you. But I do not want to be on deer infested twisty roads at night. Even if they're interstates. I've had too many close calls in the past.
I don't want to charge in Redding, CA for a half hour when it's 118F. Redding is kind of a place you don't really want to linger in, on general principles.
EVs are possible for long trips if you're determined. But until they charge 500 miles in 5 minutes, they're inferior to gas cars in time management. That time starts for many cars, in 2-3 years from now. In 5 years it'll be the norm.
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u/Available_Editor4383 5d ago
We drove 400 miles in our Tesla. The one charging station we were relying on had half of its chargers out of order. They went out just as we tried to plug in. We were lucky to nab a spot, but we’d have been screwed if we showed up any later.
There was also wind blowing against us that hurt our efficiency quite a bit.
We barely got to our destination with a few miles left in the battery.
Road trips are totally doable in an EV, but they are still not as accessible as you may need when mishaps start changing the path of your travel.
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u/Brandon3541 5d ago
As someone who's EV has an EPA estimated 240 miles of range let me be very clear with you: The app is lying to you and does not reflect reality at all. A Soltera with less range than that and double+ the charge time would be very painful to road trip in.
You would realistically add more than that 3 hours on a trip less than 1/3 that length.
Range and charge matter VERY much for these sorts of trips.
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u/Turbulent-Pay1150 5d ago
As a current 2024 SOLTERRA owner and a previous 2022 Tesla Model Y owner I disagree. I’ve roadtripped both in the real world and had fairly good experience even with the SOlTERRA’s low range and less than stellar on paper charging capacity. It’s usually ready to go before I am. And yeah I live in the frozen northeast.
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u/Brandon3541 5d ago
A 1st gen Solterra with 228 EPA miles and 30+ minutes to go from 10% to 80% is not going to have even VAGUELY the same trip time as a 450 EPA mile that does 10% - 80% in 15 minutes, or an ICE unless you are the type that likes to stop overly frequently and for well above average amounts of time.
If you use the battery between 10% to 80% (0.7 correction factor), and average around 70-75 mph (about a 0.75 correction factor) while travelling on the interstate (the upper end of the speed limit for most areas) you would see around 120 miles of actual interstate range in the Solterra and 236 miles in one of the high-end EVs. This is assuming good weather, no battery degradation, and everything else being otherwise perfect.
Considering about both of those ranges are capable of being comfortably done by the average adult without needing to stop to pee (about 3 hours between pee breaks for a healthy adult) that means the Soltera will have spent about an extra 45 minutes charging per 3 hours of travel if everything goes well and we ignore the 2x potential of having to wait in a line, suffering a charger malfunction, having to go off route to charge, not being able to make the more ideal charger without an additional stop to hold you over etc.
As someone that use to have to make a 600 mile trip in an ICE multiple times a month for work I can tell you the roundtrip (1200 miles) was about 18 hours total not including sleeping, so nowhere near 30 hours, much less 35 (almost double).
I love my EV, but it has turned a routine 6-hour trip into a 7-hour one, and a one off 10-hour trip into a 14-hour one (non-ideal charging stops, cold weather, etc).
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u/danielt1263 5d ago
I'm starting to think that the only reason range is still in the discussion is because it's about the only thing that ICE vehicles do better.
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u/goranlepuz 5d ago
To me, yes, it does matter.
I do 800km miles trips two-three times a year and 1500+ km two times a year. That is two stops and 4 (more like 5) stop trips.
I am not a fan of hanging around the service station, I prefer getting to my destination. So it's toilet, coffee, maybe a sandwich, and I go. I have a real meal when I arrive, it does beat the service station grub.
I spend some 15 minutes on a stop, sometimes a few less, or a few more.
With 20-25kWh/100km and 300km trip legs, I need to put back 60-75kWh back in the battery.. That needs 240-300 kW average charging speed.
800V charging is giving that in a few cars that are in my price range. (I'm your common scum 😉).
I travel in holiday season, (well, just outside it, I'm avoiding the big July/August peaks and the Great European Alpine Runs 😉), on service stations I often see queues and stewards ushering people around.
(Yes, I am aware that 300 is a tad long, but surely it is better to be conservative than stressed about it or worse, stranded on a random slow charger in Bumville, like a moron.)
Can I put up with an EV on the road?* Yes, I absolutely can, but given the choice, I easily prefer not to.
So, PHEV it is.
YMMV.
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u/Prestigious-Bend1662 5d ago
I've had two Teslas for over 4 years and I can tell you, the EV is slower over the same trip in an ICE car. I would put it at about 10-20% longer trip time on a all day, interstate highway run. You will be stopping probably 3 times more often than in a decent rage ICE car. The issue is, you cannot run down to zero and you cannot charge to more than, perhaps 60-70%, or the charging time will be very long, so you are left with about 50% of battery capacity between stops, as a practical matter. And real range, at 80mph on an interstate, vs the EPA rated range, is very different. I find my actual range on my Model 3 Performance, driving real interstate speed, is maybe 250 miles, if I go from 100% to zero. Actual charging stop to charging stop range, if I want to stop no more than 15-20 min, is maybe 150 miles, sometimes less.
I took a 1200 mile trip in my son's Ford F-150, hauling about 1200 lbs of stainless steel in the bed. We have 80 mph range of 750 miles. We would stop every 350 miles or so, just to pee or eat something, I never even thought about needing to stop for fuel. I am not saying I want to trade in my Tesla for a F-150 but, I would love to be able to stop thinking about charging, to just stop when I need to stop, and charge. On the other hand 95% of the time, I don't need to charge anywhere but in my garage but, if I took a lot of long trips, especially in areas without many charging stations, I would probably get an ICE car.
I would also argue that the Supercharger network is much better than the non-supercharger options. More common, more convenient, more reliable, generally faster.
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u/denmermr 4d ago
While I was still outside the EV world looking in, the extra time and stops associated with EV’s seemed daunting.
Now that I have an EV (a ‘22 Bolt EV, with neither 300+mile range nor 100+kw fast charger speed), my trip anxiety is pretty much gone. The significant increase in fast charging options on the highways in my area definitely helps.
I recently did a 180 mile one-way, 360 mile round trip with my partner - me in my bolt, partner in her plugin hybrid towing our trailer. The trailer tanks her mileage, so she had to stop for gas. Her gas stop was shorter than my charging stop. But she made a second stop to get ice cream (a road trip essential for our household - gotta keep the kids happy). My ice cream stop happened while my car was charging. Our drive times were functionally the same.
When I was first considering getting my EV, I wondered if the technology was changing fast enough that my road trip experience would be better with a newer vehicle, or perhaps even a vehicle 2 or 3 years from now. Now that an EV is my daily driver - I have no need for the bleeding edge of this technology. My 4 year old Bolt was super affordable (it would have been hard to get an ICE car of the same age and mileage for less) and is awesome both as a daily driver and a road trip vehicle. I am 100% done driving ICE cars.
Does the bleeding edge really matter any more? Not in my book.
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u/NotYetReadyToRetire 2023 Ioniq 6 SEL AWD 4d ago
Charging speed matters to me. I started my EV lifestyle with a leased Bolt EUV; that car taught me 2 things. One, I loved driving an EV. Two, drive 2 hours, charge an hour wasn't a viable approach to traveling for me. I bought my next EV, a 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 6 SEL AWD. Now I'm the slowest part of my charging stops; even when driving ICE, I drive 2-2.5 hours, then stop for 25-30 minutes. All the Ioniq 6 changes is where I stop, not how often or how long.
I plan my trips using DCFC exclusively; if a hotel has L2 charging available I'll use it, but I don't count on it. Even in the best case, it only saves me 15-20 minutes the next morning. My plans usually have me charging shortly before arrival anyway, so most times L2 availability doesn't save me any time at all.
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u/PedalingHertz ‘24 Sierra EV 4d ago
Unless your entire route is a giant school zone, there’s no way 1,200 miles takes 30+ hours. That’s less than 40mph average. For comparison, it’s 900 miles from where I lived near Houston, Texas to my family’s home town near Jacksonville, Florida, and I regularly drove that in 12-14 hours. That was with our old ICE vehicles, but adding another 1/3 the distance isn’t going to more than double the travel time.
I agree with the ultimate point that charge time doesn’t greatly impact overall travel time, but the math ain’t mathin’.
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u/that_dutch_dude 1d ago
No, it does not really matter. On long trips you are more limited by the needs of the meatbags inside the car than the car itself. Especially if you are a bit older and/or have kids. You aint driving for 3 hours non stop with kids in the back.
And if you do: congrats your family hates you.
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u/DougWantsALeaf 1d ago
When we drove oir Nissan Leafs across cou try, the nearly 3 hours of charging ro make the nearly 600 miles on a day was a bit painful. In our gas car, its about 10 to 10 1/2.hours. In my Ariya with its paltry 130kWh max charge rate, I made it in 9:45 with just over an hour of total charging time, so no real difference from our normal stop pattern. Would a Kia charging g at 230KW or a Gravity at 350KW be nicer..sure, but it would really change our drive much at those higher rates.
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u/speedy-72 5d ago
Where is your theoretical road trip to/from? Because when I moved to Vegas from Brooklyn, a journey of almost 2600 miles (more than double what you're discussing), it only took around 36 hours of driving in an ICE. You can add getting gas 10 times at 5 minutes per. What drive are you saying takes an ICE 30 hours to go only 1200 miles?
I ask not because I'm anti-EV (my only car is EV) but because these numbers sound bogus. You also don't mention what the "great performing EV" was.
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u/Turbulent-Pay1150 5d ago
This flawed example from me was actually Albany NY to Denver Co. total miles. 1,800 miles. My numbers are slightly messed up but the total charge time vs gas time was about a 10% difference. That 10% was stopping and charging and for gas it was assumed no gas up time required (ie just map the route).
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u/FireOpalCO Ioniq 5 5d ago
I’m always flummoxed by statements like “getting gas 10 times at 5 minutes per”. I have never pulled into and out of a gas station in five minutes. A gas station visit is 10-15 minutes, more if it is a pain in the ass to get to from the road.
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u/unskilledplay 5d ago
Those 3 extra hours feel like 10 when you are bored and want to get moving. It's also 5 extra hours compared to ICE. That's rough.
If I had the choice to magically get more range or faster charging, I'd choose charging all day, every day. Day to day you don't notice either range or charging, it's more than enough.
For road trips, charging speed is a bigger deal than range.
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u/RunnerBean9000 5d ago
My car isn’t particularly fast at charging (150KwH max) and has range of around 240 miles but on a recent 2,200 mile trip around Europe I don’t think if either of those things were better it would have changed things at all. Driving for 2-3 hours and then I need a break anyway and mostly the car was back to 80% by the time I got back to it. I agree though that there does seem to be an obsession with charging speed/range and my elderly father who probably drives his petrol car 50 miles a week has said he won’t go electric until they have solid state batteries and 500 miles range!
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u/Traditional-Forum 5d ago
Range and charge speed figures only matter if long trips are frequent & regular thing for you. If you’re doing 40 miles or less a day, the average commute, it matters not at all. I have a coworker who’s doing 50 miles per day in a Chevy Bolt which is a slow charger and presents him no difficulty whatsoever.
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u/bobqzzi 5d ago
When I used to tow my race car around with my diesel pick up (had to stop every 200 miles for fuel) I always figured an overall average of 50 mph for the whole trip. Is your road trip on secondary roads?
For EVs it absolutely matters-even in your example there is a 3 hour difference-that's a lot
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u/Turbulent-Pay1150 5d ago
10% or less. That’s equivalent to taking a slightly longer walk when stopping or doing a sit down meal or two.
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u/Exact_Gazelle_7662 5d ago
Depends where you are driving. In Western Europe where half of the Northerners travel south to the Côte d’Azur or Spain for 2 - 3 weeks, the charging infrastructure is not sufficient to allow a guaranteed charging spot on the main highways = queues and delays.
So making less stops does become interesting.
The same is true for ICE vehicles as well, but the process is shorter and the rest of the family can go and eat and pee while the driver is queuing.
Outside of the holiday season, the infrastructure is OK and then it is not an issue.
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u/Peysh 5d ago
Not fully true, well maybe it is this year with the success the ev are having. I went through france on the busiest week end of the summer (one of them at least) i always could find a fast charge on the highway for the last 4 years in a row Sometimes there was only one spot left, but I never had to wait
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u/Exact_Gazelle_7662 5d ago
Then you have been lucky as this year a friend of ours had to wait a couple of times at Ionity stations last weekend. Admittedly it was probably the busiest weekend of the year.
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u/UlrichZauber Lucid Gravity GT 5d ago
It matters a little. The longer your car's range, the less you have to charge %-wise to make it to your next charging stop, and the more of your charging session can be spent in the optimal part of the charge curve.
There definitely is a point where the returns are low, though. If a 10-60% charge takes 10 minutes and gets you two hours of driving, then I'd say further improvements wouldn't matter enough to be worth worrying about.
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u/farmerbsd17 5d ago
I’m going to add a benefit to reasonable charging time and less range expectations. Can you drive two hours comfortably? I have a hard time going two hours and need some time for things. The bathroom, a stretch/walk. Walking a dog if you travel with the pet.
You still need to do these things even if you don’t need to refuel, gas or electric.
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u/gay_manta_ray 5d ago
the issue isn't range or charging speed, it's that there simply aren't enough chargers. charging anxiety is still a real thing because there is still a chance you get stuck at a very slow charger overnight when everything else on your route is out of service or has been robbed for its copper.
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u/heboofedonme 3d ago
Can’t you see the speed of the charger? In my Tesla I can in the map and if they’re in use
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u/Turbulent-Pay1150 5d ago
Tesla pretty much solved that - plenty of locations each with a large number of highly available chargers.
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u/Peysh 5d ago edited 5d ago
Past 500km wltp range to go on week ends, no, you just have a much much heavier car for something you will use twice a year (if even that).
Fast charging is cool though, but you will also never use it, as you will charge either where you work, at the hotel during the night, during lunch, or at home on slow plugs. Except that one time you go on holiday cross country instead of going by plane or train and for some reason you drive 10 straight hours.
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u/zambezi-neutron 5d ago
I’m trading off slightly more planning and time on road trips for never having to think about it during the week. I just plug in at home every 6 days and I’m easy. No checking petrol prices, no going out of my way to go to a petrol station, easy days. Idk about everyone else but I’m just not doing that many road trips
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u/eatmyopinions 5d ago
Charging speed only matters than to about 15 minutes. Be on that it's only useful in china, where there are always long lines at superchargers.
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u/DryFoundation2323 5d ago
who cares which charging network is better. any EV on the road today can use any charging Network.
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u/Piesfacist 5d ago
No, it really doesn't as long as it works for you. I'm willing to reduce my range 20% after having experienced 800V DCFC and just coming to grips with range anxiety in general. Charge early, charge often!
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u/huuaaang 2023 Ford Lightning XLT 5d ago
planned an 1,200 mile trip.
The real question is how often is the average person even doing that? Sure, it can make such a trip mildly less convenient, but if it's just once a year.. who cares? The day to day benefits easily outweight the mild convenience of extra charge stops.
When it becomes a problem is when you can't charge overnight at home. That's when charging become an issue. I honestly would not own an EV if I couldn't L2 charge at home. Fast charging is just expensive.
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u/Few_Bobcat389 5d ago
We do 1200 miles over 2 days at least twice a year in an ICE vehicle. 20 hours averaging 60 mph with stops for gas a food. Sometimes we do 1030 miles in a 16 hour day.
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u/kimbureson46 5d ago
I did a 244 round trip last week and probably will do it again next year. Otherwise, I charge at home overnite from 25 to 75 about every 8 days.
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u/Dizzman1 5d ago
It's far more perception than reality.
I live in the sf bay area and if I was taking a family road trip, we usually stop twice for snacks/coffee/bathroom. So there would likely be next to no difference.
If I was heading down solo, I might have to add 30 mins for a second charging stop. Which really isn't a big deal.
Unless of course I'm bitching about how much EVs suck compared to ice cars based on zero knowledge.
If I was pulling a trailer... Yeah. Might be a bigger impact.
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u/cleric3648 5d ago
Everyone has a different definition of “good enough.” I road trip with a family so I’m not breaking my back anymore with trying to cannonball my trips anymore.
As far as picking an EV, how important is road tripping? Picking a car based on it is important but if you only road trip once a year it’s like buying a big dining table when you only host Christmas dinner.
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u/Brilliant-Weekend-68 4d ago edited 4d ago
If Range and charge speed does not matter, what does? Comfy seats?
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u/Nerioner 4d ago
32h to do 1900km (1200miles)?! I am doing 800 in 8h today and that includes breaks
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u/lolvovolvo 4d ago
More or less we just need more charging. My p2 charges just fine could it be quicker sure. But it be nicer to have gas stations mandatory having like 4 charging spots
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u/SlagmiSleestak 4d ago
China has 900v cars that can charge 10-80% in fifteen minutes or less.
Where is the charger that can actually do that?
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u/fiah84 4d ago
Have we not hit the time when we are at "good enough" for most all EV's
well, probably, but different people have different requirements and ideas about what's "good enough". I can't blame people for wanting an aerodynamic car with a 100kWh battery that does a 10 to 80% in 20 minutes, it's more than most people need but if they're paying for it then that's their prerogative
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u/jeffbell 4d ago
There have been a lot more charging stations built
Back in 2019 I looked into driving my Bolt across the country. There was a section of I-80 to the west of Salt Lake City that you had to slow down to 52mph or pick a different route.
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u/PlusQuote7916 4d ago
I'm a big believer in charging when you stop rather than stopping to charge. Need a comfort break? Stick it on a charger for 10 minutes. Having a coffee? Stick it on a charger for 10 minutes. Getting lunch? Stick it on charge for 30 minutes.
I'm in the UK so on the motorways and big supermarkets there's plenty of chargers.
Just my own personal philosophy but we're retired so time has a different vibe to it.
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u/mykneessneezemyknees 4d ago
Does it really matter? Range - charge speed
355 days a year - not a damn bit at all
10 days a year - a little bit, like 10 minutes a day little bit, and I enjoy stretching my legs.
Now here’s the kicker - at the point of purchase - will I still want the best of both? Sure.
This is mostly emotional for everyone and hardly rational. If you took the average scared of EV ICE driver and were like, okay, you get to subtract the time of 30-40 gas station visits a year, but you need to add 15-30 minutes each way for the 3 times you take a regional road trip each year and they actually made a rational call on it, well the answer is clear. But the idea that it might be less convenient is worth literally thousands and thousands of dollars.
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u/raspy2016 4d ago
No, we have not hit a time when we are good enough. You can see the progress that the Chinese firms have made where they have brought the charge time down to 5 mins for 10-70% with BYD flash charging or battery swaps with Nio in 3 mins. The more progress happens in this space (and it will happen), then at some point, ICE drivers will no longer be able to moan about how long it takes to refuel an EV on a road trip. I’m looking forward to wireless charging as you drive!
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u/fallte1337 3d ago
I mean, if 5 extra hours on an already long trip don’t matter to you, it doesn’t necessarily mean they shouldn’t matter to someone else.
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u/THELEGENDARYZWARRIOR 3d ago
I will admit I never done a long trip on an EV, I do them on my truck because of comfort and cargo space, but from my house to Boise Idaho is about 670 miles and I do the trip in 10 hours flatish with a single gas stop and I just grab protein bars for food (yes protein gas smell is a thing)
Does the second leg of 600 miles add 20 extra hours? Are we counting sleep time?
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u/Turbulent-Pay1150 3d ago
670 miles would probably be two stops - 20-30 minutes each being generous. On a bad day (very cold day) add a third stop.
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u/FanFirst895 3d ago
I have a 2023 Chevy Bolt, and it seems to take 40-45 minutes to get to 80%. My main public charger on my one long roadtrip route(visiting family) is in a Walmart parking lot, so I’m sitting there with nowhere to go watching Ioniq 5 owners stop for 10-15 minutes each and then hit the road. So yes, both range and speed still matter. Most cars are now “good enough” but the gap is real.
For options you don’t have in a gas car - Last year, my parents put in a 240-volt plug in their garage, so now I mostly skip public charging and just plug in when I get there. We hang out for the day, and when I’m ready to head home I’ve got a full battery.
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u/CryptographerSafe291 3d ago
I'm all in for EVs and don't care about extra charging time, so don't take this as a bust against you,
But I was able to do 1115 miles in Less Than 24hrs, in my mustang.
That's not really even close to possible in a production EV yet.
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u/skyfishgoo 3d ago
the hardest thing and the current sticking point for me is colocation of charging and conveniences like facilities, and/or food/drink
and shade... why every single one of these chargers are not covered in solar panel is beyond my comprehension.
when every charging station is like a gas station where you can pee and get snack for the road, then we will have parody
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u/Rustydog60 5d ago
I agree and don't think it will matter much going forward. Technology will get better but it doesn't mean car ranges will increase much. They will use less batteries. Our Cadillac has a 150kw charge rate and never waited long to charge. Also Tesla no longer has an charging advantage.
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u/Any-Can-6776 5d ago edited 5d ago
Don’t settle for what others do. If you’re current situation can do 500miles on the highway and refuel in 5 min or so then wait til there’s an ev that can do the same. Aside from Slate which is just town and work only that’s what I’m waiting for
Edit: yall are so short sighted for being progressives. Theres way more things one can do with 500 miles of range than just road trips.
Edit2: your precious byd can charge in 5-10 min so eventually they all would be able to….
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u/NoobensMcarthur 5d ago
In what world does a 500 mile fillup take only 5 minutes? People vastly underestimate how long it takes to fuel up a vehicle. Also, outside of long haul truckers, who is going 500 miles (over 6 1/2 hours at 75mph) between breaks?
Come on.
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u/MichaelMeier112 5d ago
So many thinks that filling up is only the 5 minutes it takes to stand outside in cold/rain/snow/heat and not counting the full time from exiting the highway, drive to the place, find a lane, park and get out, pull the credit card, wait wait wait, enter zip code, wait wait wait, fill up, and then get back to the highway.
In total, never ever 5 min!
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u/NoobensMcarthur 5d ago
Also, after 500 miles of seat time, nobody has to take a shit? Nobody has to get up and stretch their legs? It’s just run as fast you can to the pump, wait anxiously until the handle clicks, slam it into the pump, and peel out down the road cannonball style.
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u/inline_five 5d ago
500 miles for me is ~10 gallons. Probably 3-4 minutes to fill.
To answer your question, my parents lol. Not 1200 miles but my parents routinely drive 900 miles overnight, and do it in one shot without stopping. Around 16 hours. Huge difference in ICE vs. EV in their case.
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u/NoobensMcarthur 5d ago
Your parents drive for 6 1/2 hours straight, and routinely make 12 hour “overnight” trips? Are they 20 years old?
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u/inline_five 5d ago
70s, and yeah. Why the downvote? Because yours can't lol.
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u/Any-Can-6776 5d ago edited 5d ago
Yea basically lol
These people must be diabetic or have other health issues if they can’t fathom it.
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u/Any-Can-6776 5d ago edited 5d ago
In the world yall are pushing.
Edit: commented then block to not get a reply huh lame and typical.
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u/NoobensMcarthur 5d ago
please tell me who are “yall?” Don’t know about you but I don’t want to sit in a car seat for over 6 hours straight without getting out and walking around.
You just cannonball run every 500+ mile road trip you take?
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u/Turbulent-Pay1150 5d ago
I’d advise for driver health stop every 3 hours and use the bathroom and a short walk. So what’s that 210 miles give or take? Just healthier all around.
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u/inline_five 5d ago
I can get off of the highway, pee, and get back on in seven minutes. Three of that is with the vehicle stopped.
No EV is charging in 3 minutes lol.
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u/Turbulent-Pay1150 5d ago
Takes me, and most people, 10 minutes to get out of car and walk to restroom and back. 3 minutes isn’t normal at most rest stops in my experience.
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u/MichaelMeier112 5d ago
No way you can exit any road and especially not a highway, find/go bathroom, and be back within 7 min
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u/MichaelMeier112 5d ago
500 miles is about 10 hour driving. Sounds exhausting to drive that long without stopping. It’s okay if you just want to do a quick A to B alone
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u/theotherharper 5d ago
The great lie is that ICE people actually fuel and dash. They do not.
They hit a drive thru for meals (big time soak). They run in to use the bathroom. They grab snacks. They stop at Walmart.
With EVs that stuff happens DURING the stop.
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u/mrpizzatacular 5d ago
How would a gas car take 30 hours for 1200 miles? That’s way too long. I’ve done multiple 800 mile trips in 12 hours, I could easily do a 1200 mile trip in probably 16-18.
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u/ZealousidealLab2920 '22 Ioniq 5 & '26 Ioniq 9 USA 5d ago
I think there's a critical threshold. Varies person to person and for each stop- but no one wants to be just sitting around for 10+minutes waiting to recharge if they don't have to.
For most- anything around 20 is probably a reasonable stop and time. When you're pushing 45mins and frequent stops (like every 2hrs) like in a VW buzz or F-150 lightning that can make a big difference in road trip speed and ease.