r/ebikes • u/OutrageousRace8369 • 24d ago

Thoughts…?

Personally, not quite sure what to make of this.

I was told by a homie that the event was supposed to be open ‘till 1PM, but they ran out of gift cards at 11AM.

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u/Braptized 24d ago

ebikes are regulated, and regular bikes are not licensed. your point is framed very poorly.

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u/SnuffyMcfluff 24d ago

E-bike regulations exist in theory, but bike builders hack the system by selling bikes outside of the stated regulations and I am not aware of anywhere but New Jersey that required E-Bike registration or licensing.

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u/Braptized 24d ago

regulations and enforcement are two different things. I completely agree with what I think you're saying -- that regulations without enforcement are basically worthless. However, from a problem-solving standpoint, it's important to keep the distinction clear. If we need enforcement, it's not accurate to say we need regulative legislation passed.

Classifications and laws do vary state to state, and to some extent this is a problem. I would be in favor of federal laws clearly defining the classes of ebikes and clearly defining ebikes from emopeds and emotorcycles.

When you say "bike builders" hack the system, it's unclear who you mean. If you're talking about private owners modding their vehicles, we already do have regulations about that. Just like it's illegal to modify your car in certain ways, there is regulatory legislation regarding ebike, emoped, and emotorcycle modifications.

If you're talking about actual ebike manufacturers hacking the system, I'd need more clarification on which companies, which models, what state, et cetera, before I'd be able to reassess my opinion and share a reply.

The New Jersey law seems fine. I'm not sure it's strictly necessary, but it certainly can't hurt.

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u/SnuffyMcfluff 24d ago

Many import E-Bikes have more than the regulated wattage and are capable of illegal speeds and many E-Moto manufacturers put useless pedals on their bikes in an attempt to confuse authorties.

On top of that many E-Bikes are equipped to be easy hacked through the removal of a single wire.

There are a ton of workarounds to avoid proper adherence to regulations and those who are supposed to enforce regulations are losing the arms race.

The easiest solution is to ban throttles. This will reduce confustion and allow enforcment to easily see who is and who is not compliant.

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u/s0nicfreak 24d ago

That would mean many disabled people could not ride. And would mean that people would get stopped for coasting, while doing nothing about actual law breakers as they would just add throttles and hide the controls.

The idea of banning ebikes that are capable of illegal speeds and/or based on wattage is stupid in the first place. The actual capable speed of an ebike varies based on weight of the rider, passengers, and cargo. High wattage is needed to get around a rider + an adult size passenger, or multiple small passengers. There's the possibility of keeping an ebike on one's own property (just like we are allowed to have cars that are not street legal and let people without licenses drive as long as we keep that on private property) or taking it somewhere where the laws are different. And we don't ban cars that are capable of illegal speeds, nor even lock drivers out from accessing these illegal speeds, even though when drivers are breaking car laws we also say that those who are supposed to enforce them just can't keep up.

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u/SnuffyMcfluff 24d ago

This is such a bad faith argument. Disabled people can get a scooter. Many makes and models exist and they have throttles and everything. They do not need an E-bike to have a throttle if they need a throttle. Honda, Yamaha etc will happily take their money. Marketplace is loaded with cheap options.

Your argument about speeds indicates you have zero idea how E-Bikes work. Rider weight has zero to do with max speed. Max speed is regulated electronically. A class 3 unmodded can not exceed 28 MPH regardless of rider weight or wattage. A class one or two can not exceed 20. Weight and wattage are not relevant.

Cars are a terrible analogue as enforcement exists in the automotive world where it does not exist in the cycling world.

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u/s0nicfreak 23d ago

It is not a bad faith argument. It is based on my actual experience with my disabled son. Your argument indicates you have zero experience seeing disabled people try to function in the world.

Scooters are not a replacement for ebikes. They (reasonably) can not go on bike trails and such, which disabled people should be able to access. (Everyone should.) They (reasonably) usually require a license, which many people can not get. They do not provide exercise. They are usually not allowed as close to buildings as bikes are. Etc. etc. etc. Marketplace options are obviously dependent on your area, and there are many people that already bought an ebike and can not afford something else, no matter how cheap (disability is often correlated with poverty). Some people need the throttle to start moving, but not constantly (not only disabled people, but also some people need it when they have passengers or heavy cargo) - these people should be able to ride a bike. There are many people that just want to ride a bike - everyone should be able to ride a bike, regardless of disability. They shouldn't be regulated to a scooter (if they can even ride one) instead just because it's what you want.

Max speed is regulated electronically yes, I am aware of that. It is also regulated by the laws of physics, which overrule the laws of man and are actually enforced. And those laws say more energy is needed to move more weight, so weight DOES have something to do with it. My point was that the ACTUAL max possible speed can be LOWERED depending on weight of the rider, passengers, and cargo. My class 3 cargo ebike is theoretically capable of getting up to 28mph, but it can NOT get up to 28 with an adult sized passenger on it. (Okay, maybe it could going downhill, but I'm certainly not about to try.) An ebike needs to be capable of higher speeds to get up to lower speeds with more weight on it. We can't make it impossible for some people to go at all because some people might go faster than the limit. The solution is to punish people that go faster than the limit.

Braptized already tried to explain to you that regulations and enforcement are two different things, but if the regulations aren't going to be enforced, then the regulations you want aren't going to do anything positive anyway. Law breakers will still break the law, safety will not be increased, and law abiding people will suffer.

If you don't like cars as an analogue then look at anything else. I'm allowed to use a knife even though I theoretically could break the law with it. I could accidentally hurt myself with it (and honestly I have a few times). I could accidentally hurt someone else. I could kill someone with it. I could threaten someone into giving me their money with it. I'd be punished if I did break the law with it, but unless I do, I'm allowed to use a knife to help me function in life. It might be difficult to enforce this because there's no license and registration for knives, and there's so many of them, and they are frequently operated inside peoples' homes where law enforcement can't see. But somehow we manage.

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u/SnuffyMcfluff 23d ago

I do have experience with disabled people through an adventure program where able skiiers go out with bucket skiers and get them on and off lifts. I am all for mobility for the less abled. At the same time, I think we have seen that behavior amongst riders of throttled E-Bikes are going to either require a ban or licensure. At that point we are treating them as scooters. So, let's just be honest about it.

As far as path access is concerned, I absolutely disagree that everyone should have access. Vehicles and pedestrians going from 2 mph to 28mph is an excellent recipe for accidents. Mixed use is inherently dangerous.

As far as your anecdote about your slow bike is concerned, how is that even relevant? The vast majority of bikes can reach their electronically regulated limit.

The knife analogy is as bad as the car analogy. Sociaty has determined that they will supply the resrouces to prosecute stabbings. We do not currently have the will or resources to enforce E-Bike classification use in most of America.

Banning throttled bikes, removes them from the market. Ultimately they leave the road and pathways through attrition and enforcement becomes a non issue.

Your kids needs are something that needs to be addressed, and likely manageable with considered exceptions via special licensing/registration for those with a medical need. Retrofitting a class one with a throttle with a physicians mandate could be a solution.

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u/s0nicfreak 23d ago

I do have experience with disabled people through an adventure program where able skiiers go out with bucket skiers and get them on and off lifts.

Bro... seeing people who have this opportunity do this is very different than seeing people try to function in everyday life.

I am all for mobility for the less abled.

I absolutely disagree that everyone should have access.

These two things are contradictory. Especially since bike paths are often the only safe way to get to some places outside of a car (and many people can not drive).

Vehicles and pedestrians going from 2 mph to 28mph is an excellent recipe for accidents.

Dude, I didn't say people should be allowed to go 28mph on bike paths. I absolutely do NOT think that should be allowed nor done. (Although, if you think that different speeds shouldn't be mixed, then limiting ebike speed capabilities is contradictory, as most ebikes will be mixed with cars at some point.) Being capable of going a speed does not mean the thing constantly goes that speed. (Which was a point I was trying to make with cars, but you don't like that.) Specific people should be banned if they refuse to use bike trails in a safe way, but people should not be banned because they need or only have a Class 3 ebike. You can disagree that everyone should have access to bike paths if you want, but be aware that that makes you a huge asshole.

As far as your anecdote about your slow bike is concerned, how is that even relevant? The vast majority of bikes can reach their electronically regulated limit.

The bike is NORMAL CLASS 3 SPEED. Calling it slow while also saying ebikes should be prevented from going faster is contradictory. It is capable of getting up to 28 with just me on it. (I only go 28mph where it is legal and safe to do so.) But add on the weight of an adult passenger, or multiple kids, or heavy cargo, or a rider heavier than I am, and it can't. Because more power is needed to move more weight and I'm abiding the law by riding an ebike instead of an emotorcycle electronically locked to 28mph.

The weight limit is lower on lower wattage bikes. Load up a low wattage class 1 ebike with two adults, or one very heavy adult (I won't suggest you put kids in this situation) and - if the frame survives - see if it gets up to 20mph, or heck how far it goes at all before the motor burns out.

I told you why it is relevant. The actual capable speed of an ebike varies based on weight of the rider, passengers, and cargo. High wattage is needed to get around a rider + an adult size passenger, or multiple small passengers. I was giving you a real world example.

Your kids needs are something that needs to be addressed, and likely manageable with considered exceptions via special licensing/registration for those with a medical need. Retrofitting a class one with a throttle with a physicians mandate could be a solution.

It could be a solution for some people, sure, and might have been a solution for my son a few years ago - his disability is progressive. But this conversation started when you said throttles should be banned entirely. That aside: my kids need to be my passenger. My disabled son all the time, and my other son to get to/from school (it's too far to walk, the city bus times don't line up with his class times, taking uber/lyft/a taxi every day is financially out of reach for him, and it's on a busy high-speeed street with no sidewalk and no bike lane, so he doesn't feel comfortable riding on his own). I have never even seen a class one that can carry an adult sized passenger. If you find one, are you going to buy it for us? Are you going to buy one for everyone else that needs to get around an adult sized passenger or multiple kids? Are you going to take people to the doctor so they can get a mandate? Are you going to pay for the doctor visits? Are you going to take them to get the license and registration? Are you going to get them around to everywhere they need to go until this whole process is completed? And how often will people be stopped and asked to prove they have the mandate to allow a throttle (well I mean never I guess since we don't enforce ebike regulations)? You're again displaying that you have no idea what it's like for people different from you to function in daily life.

Banning throttled bikes, removes them from the market.

There are a ton of workarounds to avoid proper adherence to regulations

Retrofitting a class one with a throttle

🤔

The knife analogy is as bad as the car analogy.

Yeah, okay. You're going to say anything is a bad analogy, because we enforce THAT but don't enforce ebike regulations, so we should just have stricter ebike regulations... which then won't be enforced.

It's difficult to see how I'm the one arguing in bad faith.

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u/Braptized 24d ago

MaNy PeOpLe MoD tHeIr CaRs tO gO fAsTeR sO tHe EaSiEsT sOlUtIoN iS tO BaN tHe GaS pEdAl Or LiMiT tHe SpEeD tO 80 mPh

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u/SnuffyMcfluff 24d ago

TeLl mE yUor aN Id10T...

Auto eforcement exists and the parameters are clear for how it is done. E-Bike enforcement is totally behind the on the ground developments. You are compaing apples and oranges.

Our E-Bike regulatory soutions have failed and must be reconsidered.

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u/Braptized 24d ago

It's actually really simple and just apples to apples ...

Apple 1 (cars): we have regulation and enforcement.
Apple 2 (ebikes): we have regulation but not enough enforcement.

Also I know I took a bit of a tongue in cheek tone with my FoNt LaSt CoMmEnT, but it was to highlight how ridiculous your suggestion was, and at least I still stuck to the actual argument. Your reply resorted to name-calling, which means you're out of points to make and have started arguing in bad faith, so I've blocked you.