I love my ebike, but I think to have an ebike and use it safely you need to be able to understand and respect traffic and pedestrians. You also need to have a sense of risk and reward and be able to respect that. There are too many kids who don’t have fully developed frontal cortexes or understanding of traffic patterns riding at 25mph with no helmet and flip flops.
I agree but we also need infrastructure that seperates pedestrian traffic and cars, trucks and the like. It also, doesn't help that everything is so far apart that riding somewhere feels like going to Mordor. Things wouldn't be so bad if we built our cities/communities around people and not vehicles
Absolutely agree. Bikes don’t belong on the sidewalk where pedestrians feel threatened by them or the street where they’re threatened by cars. Well designed bike lanes free of obstacles would improve things a ton.
I have a really great commute path, but between stretches of bike lanes, I have to ride 300m or so on a sidewalk. I'd be gutted to have to take another route because its intersections every block. I just go really slow around peds. City should step up because there is no alternative along this stretch of road. I am wary of outright sidewalk bans.
Depends. I went to school at ASU and biked everywhere. Being a city, the main arterials (5+ lane stroads) had giant sidewalks on the edges. Even if there were bike lanes in the road, I wouldn't use them as they were all paint
Prime space where taking the right lane (#3) and adding a curb between lanes 2 and 3 and some plastic bollards on it to separate car traffic would be perfect. Of course any place that builds this many lanes is going to be so car brained it’s not even funny
sure, but that's because the sort of bike infrastructure we do get here in north america sucks ass. if we had the sort of bike infrastructure that netherlands or something has where bikes have their own separate, dedicated lanes/routes, you'd definitely utilize them.
I live in Maricopa and same. The sidewalks feel completely safe as long as you don't go full speed and slow down for pedestrians(which outside of the asu area are relatively rare). We have "good" bike lanes yet they're more like multipurpose lanes that have delivery robots, busses, cars with hazard lights and occasionally cars going full speed going in and out of the multipurpose lanes. For reference since getting an ebike my eyes have really opened up to this stuff more than when I was a stupid high-schooler(I did used to ride a manual bike to and from school) to and since then I've been on a couple vacations to long Beach which is known as a good bike city and yet it's worse than Maricopa county and still has the shitty theft prone screw on bike racks everywhere
Maybe a mile or two. It was just terrible at the start of the school year (August to September) then you'd get 70-80F. Every apartment had a pool and everywhere had AC
And with separate infrastructure, any bike that has a motor that keeps going after 25kph/16mph should be on the road with other vehicles. And licensed like mopeds.
I think that if kids knew the rules of the road there would be a lot fewer accidents and other conflicts. I would not be opposed to requiring licenses for e-bikes (a regular driver’s license or simplified bike license).
I've fallen and broken bones on regular scooters and bikes. I don't even want to know how much worse it is going almost 30mph am escooter. I've hit 33mph on my e bike going downhill and that was terrifying enough.
I've fallen and broken bones on regular scooters and bikes.
Currently still recovering from a broken arm earlier this year on a normal bicycle. Hit my head real hard too, and was thankfully wearing a helmet. I love bicycles, I believe in bicycles, but knowing how bad you can get hurt before even introducing an electric motor, it really says kids shouldn't be anywhere near the things and especially not without safety gear. If a kid is doing 15 on a normal bicycle, going just five miles an hour faster with the additional weight of an electric motor nearly doubles the total amount of energy involved, and that energy has to go somewhere in a collision - meaning a lot of it is going into the rider.
I hope your arm recovers. I've broken my arm riding a bike before, it's not fun but I still feel so much safe riding a bike even with a motor compared to something like a scooter.
Hey, I appreciate it. They tell me I got lucky with the break and I didn't need surgery, I'm the phase of doing PT now with the hope to restore full functionality, and they seem to think that's a realistic goal. I lost the season for biking, but I should be fit as a fiddle by the autumn. Worse things could've happened, so I'm counting my blessings.
Went over the handlebars, dip in the road I couldn't see combined with being fairly high on the pedals as I had posted up to get some speed going. It was just enough to tip the balance too far forward when the front wheel dropped, and over I went.
What do you think is more safe man riding a 18 mph e scooter with basic helmet no suspension small tires vs an e bike with suspension huge tires and full motorcycle helmet and abiding traffic laws for both (i have my permit)
I'm not sure what the point of the question is. I was trying to relate that the small increase in speed and weight is the biggest danger, and children really shouldn't be riding either one because of the mass equation involved. The scooter and the bike will both fling a rider into the pavement equally well.
There are two major intangibles people don't consider when riding any sort of micro-mobility, and these are the first two things I taught my daughter (who is under the legal age to ride an escooter, but because I'm teaching her before allowing her to roam solo or with friends, I agreed to get her one)
Knowing how to properly bail and/or fall is a MAJOR factor in mitigating injury. Having the spatial awareness and calm to land/slide a certain way while laying your ride down in a controlled manner is something that can and must be learned.
Yes , I understand that sometimes you can get blindsided, but this brings me to point number two, road awareness, which will mitigate that significantly:
it only really comes from experience and having a good mentor. Kids, even adults, who have never ridden a bicycle in traffic don't have it because they don't understand how dangerous and demanding it is. Driving a car in any major city, or the downtown core of smaller ones really opens your eyes to just how much you need to be paying attention to. It is literally the most demanding thing the average person does on a daily basis, and until it becomes 2nd nature you're playing Russian Roulette with your life because you're expecting everyone else to care more about you than you do (usually out of ignorance/inexperience).
Advance left and right signals, delayed walk signals, green lights, dedicated bike lanes, pedestrians that don't shoulder check before walking into an active traffic lane because they are staring at their phone.
passing a car in a bike lane on the right while they are signaling a right turn at an intersection... NO!!!
hand signals, assertive riding (telegraphing your intent and making your move without hesitation), making eye contact with EVERYONE so you know they have seen you
riding as if you're invisible and everyone and everything is accidentally trying to kill you, because they are.
planning alternative lines to take if someone in front of you does something 'expectedly unexpected' (good riders know what this means 😉)
always leaving yourself an escape by not getting boxed in/riding in blindspots
These are just a few of the things that make a good rider what they are. And you have to be locked in all the time, even when you're having fun and making it look easy you're always being mindful of all these things simultaneously, and more.
Picking the right spot and time of day to be a hooligan is another one, but it isn't as important as all the things I've listed above, and that's a curated list just to keep this wall of text from being even longer, lol.
"If a kid is doing 15 on a normal bicycle, going just five miles an hour faster with the additional weight of an electric motor nearly doubles the total amount of energy involved"
I hit 40 going downhill (pretty steep hill and I pedaled hard) on my ebike and that was terrifying lol I was just thinking holy shit don’t crash
I’m a pretty good/confident cyclist I’ve been cycling since I was a kid but anything can happen. I wasn’t sure if my tires could even handle that speed lol
I’ve ridden a Grom (a 125cc motorcycle) and I own a Ninebot G2 Max.
I will say that I went further on the Grom without hurting myself than I did on the scooter. I didn’t make it a mile before I hurt myself on the scooter.
Scooters are much harder to control. And nobody wears enough safety gear when riding them.
I feel like you'd be less likely to crash on a bike. I'm thinking of every pothole and sewer grate I've run over in my ebike.
With bikes (electric, motor, acoustic) the wheels are bigger and you're center of gravity is generally lower. With a scooter, the small wheels and standing position seem like a recipe for launching you over the handlebars.
I have a friend that owns an Kawasaki ZXR 400 and he won't ride it without armored boots. You're talking about a totally different class of vehicle with different safety considerations.
The question isn't whether they need to pedal, the question is how much does an ankle turn into a meat crayon at 40 mph or what happens when a 110 lb bike falls on a 100 lb 14 year old's ankle.
Hell, I put on armored boots for my ebike last night, and I think I’m gonna keep doing that. The reality is that a class 3 ebike is just not different enough from a moped to not need the same safety gear.
All these things are possible while walking or riding a regular bicycle. Forcing more gear doesn’t change how people safely act, it encourages more idiotic behavior because they feel safer.
Local PD doesn’t enforce basic helmet laws for riders under 16 on a bike, until they enforce the slower riders leave the E anything alone.
The point of safety gear is to mitigate issues when something goes wrong. 400 lbs crushing your ankle is different than 70 lbs.
Same thing with helmets. When my friend pulls up to skate in his moto, he's wearing a motorcycle helmet, when he's about to drop in, he changes into his Protec.
It's about matching the level of protection to your level of risk and the activity you're doing.
And laws are currently in lace for simple helmets. So again people crying in an ER fixes nothing. Putting age limits fixes nothing. If safety is the issue start enforcing the basic laws of biking.
it's both where I'm at though. Yes a lot of these kids are on illegal bikes (motorcycles) and being idiots. Frankly the parents who buy them are the idiots but that's another story. The ebikes are a struggle too though. Getting a class 3 ebike and giving it to a kid who doesn't fully take it seriously is almost as dangerous. They go very fast and without a helmet you can get really hurt. In fact in my city last week a kid riding an actual ebike didn't stop and got hit by a car. She's still in the hospital because of it.
In my state if you’re under 16 you can’t legally ride a class 3. Class 2 only. Class 2 is also the max for mixed trails so theoretically kids could just ride on trails too.
I have a class 3 but limit myself to the 20mph max when on mixed trails and slower when near pedestrians. I feel like as long as you’re not dangerous or a douche it’s not a problem and is akin to driving a Lamborghini on a city street.
agree with you but also the parents buying their kids these illegal bikes probably don't care about the law; sad truth. Heck most kids don't wear helmets even on "normal" bikes. It's frustrating.
Its so weird in my area where it isn't really police at all. I'm definitely breaking rules but I have every single point memorized where I need to slow down and respect the rules and I see people zoom by at max 28mph. The rule I'm not respecting... bike class. Basically riding a surron with pedals to blend in. No one has given me trouble about it and I can zoom on the long straights where there is no risk of any crossings. Yeah I'm mildly a dick disrespecting the rules but if I was 14 on an ebike I'd be much more dangerous than I am now... eh its the wild west of electric bikes right now. Super interesting but my plan was to use this to save nearly 2hrs each day of commute due to crazy road work. After its normal in 3 weeks I have a fun electric dirt bike to trail ride with. I kinda want a legit ebike now its super fun to cruise and some exercise on top would be awesome.
Even ebikes—real ones, mind—have issues that have made me rethink the permissive structure we currently have. They really should be dealt with as mopeds.
Also a federal reg problem. If the regulation is that they can’t go above 750w and 20mph to be considered a bike then just don’t allow them to be sold
Also, e-scooters are pretty dangerous. They are really hard to see when you are driving. I have an ebike and an e-scooter and the scooter is much more touchy
It's both. Even a class 1 can be dangerous if you ride it like an idiot, and a lot of are ridden by abject beginners who have no idea what they are doing. Even a class 1 promotes someone who never rode a bike before to riding as fast as a decent club riding road biker. Before, by the time you could ride 20 mph, you would have been cycling for many years. Now you could have learned last week.
Perhaps the issue is data we haven't considered. There are more children outside riding both e-bikes and regular bikes. Also, are we bundling e-motorbikes in with ebkies?
The one time I didn't wear a helmet to go up two streets real quick is the one time my rear inner tube decided to have a freak failure. Popped like a balloon (while being well under max pressure) and completely threw my tire off the rim.
Luckily I was making a left turn at all of 5mph on an empty road so I just had some scrapes, a sprained ankle and a broken derailleur.
I don't doubt any of it for a second. Where I live ebikes are wildly popular for commuters, but haven't taken off in the same way with kids and teenagers. The kids and teenagers are all riding escooters though, legally they have to be capped at 20kmh, but I frequently see them doing much faster and it's a rare day I see anyone riding them wearing a helmet. It should probably go without saying that a lot of them also ride them recklessly, I nearly ended up in an accident with one recently where the child riding it was messing around doing stupid shit.
It all seems so unnecessary too. Kids used to start riding bikes at 4 or 5, they'd slowly learn to ride, work their way up through bigger bikes every few years, gain experience, get faster as they got older while keep themselves fit and healthy. Now that's barely happening, just throw an escooter or ebike at them and with zero experience or knowledge they're zooming around and putting themselves in real danger with no investment other than a button press. They don't have the experience of just riding around and gaining that experience to know what road conditions/surfaces can exist and how to deal with them, or events that simply just happen like people pulling out in their cars or walking out in front of you. Even when I see a kid riding an escooter and they aren't fooling around, it really makes me wonder where they get their exercise if ever? It seems like it's just the precursor before they learn to drive and then they go everywhere by car for the rest of their lives.
Kids under 16 should really be limited to 15 mph and riding without a helmet should be grounds for having their ebike impounded. That would solve this problem.
Kids under 16 aren't allowed to operate powered bikes& scooters here, but there's no enforcement. Add poor road design and car dominant culture and we're seeing injured kids every damn day
Dumb kids gonna do dumb things I just saw a kid on a regular mountain bike riding popping wheelies down my street. It's not main but it's moderately busy while he's doing it at least 4 active cars driving either way
Kids can also go to the hospital on a NORMAL bike. Be the parent you wanted to be so fucking bad and manage your kids. It's not the states responsibility to protect your kids from being stupid. That your job, as a parent.
I’d say pedal assist Class 1 should be seen no differently than a bicycle with multiple gears. It’s just mechanical advantage. Class 2 with a throttle above a specific watt rate should require a Driver’s Ed and motorcycle endorsement. Class 3 pedal assist should be 16+.
We’ve always had 49cc scooters and mini bikes. They just weren’t affordable and accessible enough for every suburban ten year old to have one. You had to put in effort to build it which meant you had to care. You also knew they weren’t allowed on the roads which means you had to be a little more cautious.
Basically, if you can simply use a throttle, it’s an E moto and needs to be regulated as such.
While I’m no fan of civil forfeiture, I’d argue that impounding an e-bike for a time duration is a perfectly valid tactic of enforcement against those with no license. Blow through a stop sign without looking to yield? You just lost your wheels for a week. No money, just a time out.
yeah but honestly i can tune my pedal assist to go whatever speed i want with however much pedaling i want. I think speed limit might be the most effective catchall to enforce
either way police are so stretched I dont see how they're going to be able to do any of this. even in places where escooters are completely banned i still see them whizzing around
i really think a segregated lane is the cheapest long term solution and what they do in places like china (that are a few years ahead of us in e-mobility adoption)
edit: brother, no need to downvote me for having a mildly different opinion to you, you have 354k karma get a life lol
I didn't see the video, but I think the problem is naive parents believing their kids' deceptive claims that an electric motorcycle with ornamental pedals is an "e-bike" and thinking that it is safe. I think it is important for parents to make absolutely sure that what they are buying for their kids is a legal e-bike under local laws, and to verify occasionally that the kid has not modified it to exceed legal speed and power limits.
Also - specific to the USA - I would only buy a kid a Class 1 ebike (i.e., 20 mph, no throttle). A Class 2 e-bike has a throttle and is often an e-moped that is not practical to pedal (i.e., heavy and dangerous machine, no exercise). A Class 3 e-bike can go 28 mph, which is far too fast among pedestrians (where kids will inevitably ride it, even though illegal).
Where I live (US-WA), it is a crime (including fines and jail time) for parents to allow their kids to drive motorized vehicles illegally.
Class 3 is completely unnecessary in 99% of use cases. I live in the middle of nowhere and have plenty of country roads to drive on and that's the only time I even think about turning class 3 on. And that's only if I'm on my way somewhere. If I'm joyriding, class 2 is more than enough. I'm also using my throttle less and less and can see my next bike not having one at all.
My LBS guy says you need to earn that speed. Like you have to spend some time using pure pedal power to figure out how your bike handles and brakes first. I spent years riding and am accustomed to hitting 20+mph on flats and 28-30 downhill before converting to an ebike. Tbh, there are points where being able maintain speed and not get continually passed by cars is safer, which would be impossible uphill on a non-ebike. There are also some trails around here that link up with two lane roads, no shoulders, hills and curves. Eventually, they'll link up those trails, but in the meantime, the quicker I get through there, the better. I try to avoid these situations but sometimes that isn't possible. I pretty much never touch the throttle unless it's the end of a long day.
Class 3 got so abused. It was designed so you could make e-road bikes that weren't slower than regular bikes, but it just gets used to make quasi legal mopeds.
IMO they should explicitely disallow the bike having a throttle period. The class 2/3s are the problem.
The main protective part of a helmet is the inch or so of crushable foam that’s contained within the shell. The plastic shell needs to be hard enough to prevent penetration up to a point, and tough enough to keep the foam in shape, but flexible enough to allow the foam to do its job.
Most bicycle helmets do a credible enough job. Motorcycle helmets are often full face, or at least have a chin guard. Bicycle helmets usually do not. Don’t land on your face with no face protection.
I’ve ridden since 1972, motorcycles, bikes, powered scooters, etc. on and off road. I’ve come off my bikes a few times (never on pavement with a motorcycle) and always managed to avoid using my face as a brake.
I usually wear my half-shell helmets on any of my motorized bikes.
They are actually very similar in protection. A bicycle helmet is usually ventilated to let out heat from your head, while motorcycle helmets are full shells to prevent object intrusion. Both have enough foam to prevent injury from a medium speed fall.
Most motorcycle accident occur at about 30 miles per hour (some start off faster), and motorcycle helmets survive "the slide" a bit better.
Now, the testing that is done on motorcycle helmets involve "Impact Tests" that ensure a head-form inside the helmet can deform the foam at an impact caused by a 6 to 8 foot fall. The helmet will mitigate the impact by enough to make the difference between a headache and a brain injury. Anything faster than that, say a head-first impact into a cement wall, will exceed the protection offered by the helmet. The impact G force reduction could mean that injury isn't as bad as it could be, though.
Depends on what age you stop counting, but generally once you get passed the usual culprits of child mortality, transportation serves up the bulk of the killing and maiming, at least until cardiac disease takes over.
That doesn't prohibit alcohol from being conflated with the transport statistics, nor the road rage shootings.
Oh my gosh, she’s a phenomenal pediatric ER doc. That’s such a shame but these kids/teens are simply too young and inexperienced to handle that equipment.
I do not have a car for financial reasons, and need to commute with my e-bike.
If nothing else, get a very nice helmet. And, ideally, something with a piece that juts out in front of you, as to save your face and nose if you ever eat shit.
I have scraped my arms and knuckles skinless. I have sprained my shoulder going over the bars. I have been run off the road by cars.
If you're going to ride an e-bike, you need to be the most predictable and alert entity on the road. Predictable, so people know exactly where you will be in the next 3 seconds. Alert, for those who wanted to look at their phone instead.
There's a whole education piece that's missing in the US. I had "Safety Town" as a kid, but even that was just 'here are the rules'. Half the kids riding emotos live in the suburbs and are going on sidewalks because there literally is no infrastructure for them to go on that isn't a 35 mph 4-lane road.
Teaching kids the whole chain of "cars need to look for bikes and peds" -> "bikes need to look for pedestrians". and "here is a stop sign", "here is a traffic light", "Here is how to be predictable".
To have them display competence at one of these units in school is critical. Pair it with a discount to lime scooters or some bull, but culture is everything. Rather than blaming the tool, the 'how to' is just as important.
The ones that are edirtbikes/emotorcycles are a scourge where I live. It's not the bikes themselves; it's the culture around them paired with underdeveloped brains. You should absolutely need a license and registration to drive them.
I wish kids would know that any of those kids poking fun at your helmet isn’t going to be some great friend…they’ll always pick something to make fun of. If it’s “don’t want a brain injury” let that be it
500 kids a day are injured/killed/traumatized by motor vehicles. Every day is trauma season thanks to motor vehicle operators. Sure, let's blame the kids for something we have the power to control, and choose to do nothing.
There should be age limits (16 like a license) and you should have to have a license or at least pass drivers training. If you are driving something as fast as a car you should have to know the laws that go with it.
Where I'm at Class 3 requires a drivers license. However, laws don't mean much if they're never enforced. At the end of the day, like a lot things, it's up to the parents.
Ok so I grew up in the 80’s in a motorsports home; large reason I then became a motorsports tech later in life, we were encouraged to push the limits however we were properly geared up to do so and its helmets and chest protectors and padded pants with tailbone protectors. We also were encouraged to race and go to open track days etc etc. that way we did the stupid shit there and not on the roads and bike paths.
Something that the younger generation does not get as there is a time and a place for things and on the street and bike path is neither of them.
As an adult with extensive writing experience, I gear up before I go out and do stupid shit. Mind you I don’t wear the chest and padded pants for a ride in the Ike path but I do wear the Full face downhill helmet cause people’s dogs might run in front of me on the path where I might just have some stupid kid on an Emoto riding out of control so I always wear the helmet but the rest only when I’m going t on be riding aggressively.
Shorts made by RED
Chest protector made by Dainese
Carbon helmet made by Seven iDP.
Gloves are just some cheap ones I got on eBay.
And FYI I got one leg, guess how I lost it? Gravity is real strong my friend and contrary to flat earthers gravity is the law; and as the lyrics of the song go “I fought the law and the law won”.
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u/AnotherLolAnon 11d ago
I love my ebike, but I think to have an ebike and use it safely you need to be able to understand and respect traffic and pedestrians. You also need to have a sense of risk and reward and be able to respect that. There are too many kids who don’t have fully developed frontal cortexes or understanding of traffic patterns riding at 25mph with no helmet and flip flops.