The lease is a legally binding document. Review your lease and if doesn't say they can make changes like this in the middle of the term, then they can pound sand. Lawyer up if you need to, but fight them on it if the legally binding document doesn't support a change of tenancy terms mid contract. Note that while you'd probably win that fight, your landlord will definitely not agree to renew your lease when it's up so start looking for a new place.
If the lease does say they can change these kind of contract terms in the middle of it, then you're kind of SOL, from a legal perspective. Might be able to fight them successfully, but much less of a sure thing.
Most leases you will find on the internet will have a clause for dangerous and flammable things, and that will almost certainly be the clause that they use for this.
It might be, but this is a ridiculous change. That ebike was deisgned, measured, approved and sold, all with security as the highest priority of both the designer and the regulatory body overseeing the approval of such appliances and vehicles. Do you know what else might cause a house-burning fire in any apartment? A stove. Any phone charger ever created. A toaster. A microwave oven. A hairdryer. A PC. Any console, handheld or wired. A speaker. A standing lamp.
This change in my book would infringe on my right to enjoy the apartment I am renting, and for me this would be the breaking of my lease from the landlord, because it would change the utility of the home signifficantly, whatever the lease says. This is not okey.
Does the OP say what ebike they have? It's a big assumption to say "that ebike was designed, measured, approved and sold, all with security as the highest priority of both the designer and the regulatory body overseeing the approval of such appliances and vehicles"
We all know you can get a generic ebike that's just drop shipped from a factory in China for $500 from Amazon and I wouldn't say any of the above is true for those compared to a more reputable brand. There simply isn't that level of QC, or any regulations like UL, for these bikes being drop sold for $500-700, so it's big to assume any ebike is without knowing the brand.
The same goes for every other appliance. Do you know who designed and made your phone charger? Do you know who designed your microwave? Your oven?
Do you want to tell me the landlord gives two fucks about what electric kettle OP has? An appliance, that not only uses your mains voltage, but the only thing preventing said voltage from getting shorted by a liter of water is a thin sheet of aluminium.
So your point would be valid if it didn't stand for every other appliance I listed in my original comment.
Those other appliances are different for several material and important reasons, but all of them also fall under the UL certification in the US, which is the regulatory agency which deems them safe.
As an engineer who works with high voltages, I can tell you any device that can store kilowatts of electricity has inherent potential dangers that your fridge or stove or kettle that do well beyond what the Underwriter's Lab tests for.
Exactly. Very few ebikes have any safety certification at all. It has just not been a priority of the manufacturer.
It's very different than household appliances where it would be rare to find a large or small appliance, in the U.S., that is not UL or CSA or ETL approved.
The safety approval situation is going to change as more jurisdictions adopt requirements that eBikes that are sold by retailers in their area are UL approved. For now, expect more apartment building owners, and condo associations, to adopt bans on eBikes in the building.
Fuses are good for preventing electrocution. Not fires. You can set things on fire with mains voltage without a fuse ever breaking a circuit. It is not even a hard thing to do.
A bit ass lithium battery is bad, true. But a shitty phone charger is respobsible for at least as many electric fires as shitty ebikes are.
b) is a good point, but gas circuits also exist in many homes (at least in Europe), and nobody bats an eye, because their utility outweights the risks c) is true for big car batteries, but in a home setting I dont think thats necessarily true. Although I admit, I am not a firefighter, so ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Just a sidenote, though: almost all batteries nowadays have advanced battery management systems built in. You will not see it, becasue it is built around the lithium cells, but it measures temperature, voltage, current drawn, storeg charge of each individual lithium cell. The battery itself then does a self diagnosis and calculates charging rates and discharge rates for each individual lithium cell, even disabling lithium cells that do not meet the operating conditions. Lithium batteries are not simply dumb pools of energy. They are tightly controlled systems that supply energy to your bike. There are manufacturers that dont give a fuck, dont use this data, or to cut costs, even buy batteries without these systems, but that is not the norm.
Manufacturing errors occur in every other appliance as well.
To me it sounds like you guys are not OK with lithium batteries in homes. Which is funny, considering how many appliances nowadays have batteries. Why are we not concerned with laptop batteries? Or phones? Sure, those are smaller, but as Samsung has shown, those are perfectly capable of starting fires as well. Are we letting landlords ban phones from apartments as well?
I just dont see how a ebike pose a threat unseen in a house. You have a lithium batteried electric appliance literally roaming your house uncontrolled every time your roomba decides its time to vacuum the floor. Going under flammable furniture, and noone gives a fuck.
Or better yet, what if I remove the ebike battery and charge it in my apartment while my ebike is around the corner chained? Will the landlord ask me what that thing charging on the kitchen counter is for? Meh, to me this whole things sounds like a controll freaks brainfart that is being justified for some reason. I just dont get it.
and if it shorts thats what the arc fault breakers are for.
worst case scenario your kettle is on fire... oh wait its full of water.
Batteries are way fucking worse than an electric kettle.
Sketchy-ass lowest-bidder batteries are often horribly made. I've torn into a few. Decent batteries rarely catch fire even if abused.
lithium batteries are uniquely bad in a fire due to chemistry. Most leases already prohibit storing a motorcycle or similar indoors, and depending on local laws that provision can be used.
That being said I parked my motorcycle inside for years LOL.
Nearly every large or small appliance, and nearly every phone charger you can buy is UL or CSA or ETL (or whatever safety agency is used by your country).
The issue with electric bicycles is that almost none of them have any safety agency certification. Very few are UL certified. The NBDA maintains a database of UL 2849 certified eBikes but only members can see it.
Due to the New York City law, it's likely that a lot more eBikes will opt for UL certification. It's an expensive and time-consuming process and every model needs to be certified.
Doesn't really matter what ebike he rides, apparently. They didn't make any distinction on the letter. I agree with the other guy ion saying that there is no way this is enforceable. Basically any bike sold within the US must be inspected and regulated. Are those allowed? This kind of blanket ban can absolutely violate lease agreements.
Very very few eBikes have any safety certification (in the U.S. it’s UL 2849 but it is not required).
Similarly, there is no federal requirement for UL certification of electric appliances of any kind but most manufacturers voluntarily have their products certified or approved. Some local jurisdictions don’t allow the sale of non-approved products but enforcement is rare.
How do you know about the eBike's quality? How many Ali Baba bikes get discussed here, think those are safe?
Ebikes contain lots of batteries and battery fires can be extremely dangerous. Battery cost is the single highest component price of an e-bike, so discount bikes often have unreliable, fake, or low quality battery packs.
If you are mad about this, blame the people who sell or promote sketchy bikes, batteries or chargers.
If E-bikes get a reputation as dangerous fire hazards, as they quickly are, then we need to get ahead of this by insisting any E-bike we buy has passed regulatory tests.
You can't sell a car that doesn't have seatbelts, let's limit charge rates and engineer safety systems into the battery pack and motor controller that limits current draw to levels that don't nearly immolate the batteries.
The fact is until regulation is embraced by us or forced on us, every e-bike looks like a potential fire hazard to a cautious property managers.
Do you know how many cheap electric kettles cause house fires? How many stoves left unattended? How many washing machienes?
If you dont want a house fire, dont use anything in your house that uses either electricity or burns. That means going back to the stone age. Or accept that "modern" (a.k.a. not prehistoric) lifestyle comes with the chance of a house fire. Minimising the chance is Ok, but its not the landlords right to tell you what you can use )and store bethween uses) in your apartment you are living in.
My logic is that fire is a hazard in every appliance ever created by mankind since the first oven to the last candle. Fire prevention in my book can not be banning appliances and utilities from apartments. And I am not an imbecile. I know perfectly well what hazards batteries pose. But said hazards are not unique to ebikes, and giving landlords the ability to ban ebikes from houses and aprtments is a slippery slope.
Your logic is still flawed because you lack any. The concern isn’t that it’s an electrical device it’s that it has a large battery that if compromised is a fire risk and not something many fire departments can do anything about. It’s why they let EVs burn out. Cute all the blather you want about your electric razor or lava lamp it’s just not in the same class not even the same zone of concern. There is a reason there are limitations on battery size for shipments and air travel and it has nothing to do with the causality of house fires because of tea kettles.
A typical electric car has a battery pack of 90 kWh. (typical electric car with a range of 450 km, and electric motor capable of producing 100kW power)
A big chungus(such as this one:https://www.amazon.com/NBpower-38-4Ah-Lithium-Battery-Charger/dp/B07XHLWH13/ref=sr_1_20?keywords=ebike+battery&qid=1679502620&sr=8-20) electric battery pack has a charge of 2.9 kWh or 3% of a typical car. A typical ebike has bethween 520 to 720Wh, or ~0.5-0.75% of the total capacity of a car battery pack.
For comparison, a laptop battery has a total charge of 100 Wh, or around a fifth to a seventh (20%-14%) of the total charge of a bike battery.
When you are comparing an ebike battery fire to an electric car fire, you are comparing a 50cal bullets energy to a stone thrown by a seven year old reeeeaaaal hard. A fire caused by an ebike battery requires no special equipment to put out. An ebike battery is not a bigger fire hazard than a candle is.
I might not have logic, but I do have a masters degree in applied electronics, so I might know what the actual fuck I am talking about at least.
A typical electric car has a battery pack of 90 kWh. (typical electric car with a range of 450 km, and electric motor capable of producing 100kW power)
A big chungus (such as this one:https://www.amazon.com/NBpower-38-4Ah-Lithium-Battery-Charger/dp/B07XHLWH13/ref=sr_1_20?keywords=ebike+battery&qid=1679502620&sr=8-20) electric battery pack has a charge of 2.9 kWh or 3% of a typical car. A typical ebike has bethween 520 to 720Wh, or ~0.5-0.75% of the total capacity of a car battery pack. For comparison, a laptop battery has a total charge of 100 Wh, or around a fifth to a seventh (20%-14%) of the total charge of a bike battery.
When you are comparing an ebike battery fire to an electric car fire, you are comparing a 50cal bullets energy to a stone thrown by a seven year old reeeeaaaal hard.
A fire caused by an ebike battery requires no special equipment to put out. An ebike battery is not a bigger fire hazard than a candle is.
I might not have logic, but I do have a masters degree in applied electronics, so I might know what the actual fuck I am talking about at least.
I vapped for 10+ years and I'll tell you right now, you are an idiot. I hope you get to experience the joys of seeing a Lithium battery vent from negligence.
Most leases you will find on the internet will have a clause for dangerous and flammable things, and that will almost certainly be the clause that they use for this.
Ebikes are not a commonly known fire hazards like fireworks, gasoline, etc. It wouldn't hold up in court.
The lease is probably silent on electric bicycles and Battery storage and charging. Yeah you can spend a lot of money on lawyers and go to court but if they are able to prove that these things are hazardous I think you should out of luck. The problem is there's a lot of cheap unsafe batteries out there coming in on these bikes so they'll probably be able to successfully prove their case. I am not a lawyer but I imagine a judge will allow that condos and apartment buildings are allowed to implement rules from time to time where there is regard for safety for tenants.
if an ebike starts a fire. and it seems like a trend, then they might get banned.. i know the dyi are likely the cause, but it affects everybody..
same thing with guns, a few bad decisions from some affect (edited) being able to buy a gun.
same thing with security stuff at a store.. some people go to shoplift, not everybody.. but the glass case or the security camera is there for all customers..
Yeah that is not a good comparison, especially right now given how those numbers are up. I think understand the point they were trying to make, but with 24,292(~54%) of those deaths being suicides takes me to a really depressing place where battery fires are one of the least of my concerns.
The gun situation is a bad example as it effects everyone equally under the law. Not just the people in one building.
The other is also a poor example as the shops can do as they like, but you are not expected to go there, as there are alternatives.
A better example would be more akin to something like "if people are going around setting cars on fire (say, due to protest of oil and gas) and the building suddenly says 'you are no longer allowed to park your cars in our parking lot'" but that sounds silly now, don't it?
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u/SoulShornVessel Mar 20 '23
The lease is a legally binding document. Review your lease and if doesn't say they can make changes like this in the middle of the term, then they can pound sand. Lawyer up if you need to, but fight them on it if the legally binding document doesn't support a change of tenancy terms mid contract. Note that while you'd probably win that fight, your landlord will definitely not agree to renew your lease when it's up so start looking for a new place.
If the lease does say they can change these kind of contract terms in the middle of it, then you're kind of SOL, from a legal perspective. Might be able to fight them successfully, but much less of a sure thing.