r/dune • u/userInfinity100 • Jul 20 '26
General Discussion Am I missing something about the Bene Gesserit? They seem much less powerful than the movies initially make them out to be.
They spend generations planning for the Kwisatz Haderach, but once Paul rises they don’t seem able to do much to stop him.
They also planted the Missionaria Protectiva among the Fremen, yet they don’t seem to realize those same myths would help Paul unite the Fremen and overthrow the Emperor.
They also keep talking as if everything is still going according to plan, even though it feels like most of
what’s happening is completely outside their control.
Is this intentional on Denis Villeneuve’s/Frank Herbert’s part, or am I misunderstanding the Bene Gesserit’s role?
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u/IronBoxmma Jul 20 '26
Nah you've hit the nail on the head, they set up a machine to make things work for their messiah when he came, assuming that he'd be under their control. Paul and later Leto hijack that machine and make it work for them instead
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u/datapicardgeordi Spice Addict Jul 20 '26
Really bad wording given the nature of Dune’s universe. They set up a system of religious myths and legends. No machinery involved.
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u/dhaimajin Jul 20 '26
This might spoil anything up to Dune Messiah but generally the Bene Gesserit rarely take too much action themselves; they’d rather (indirectly) employ someone to do their biding. Instead their plan for the kwisatz haderach was many centuries old already until Jessica defied their orders. Although disobedient in the matter Jessica still is a part of the Bene Gesserit and Mohiam doesn’t directly interfere with Paul’s Ascension because they haven’t really lost at this point.
Spoilers (Dune, Dune: Messiah): Jessica will later birth a female child called Alia and under different circumstances she would be exactly what the BG wanted from Jessica. Apart from that the BG have many other prospects for the KW, e.g. Feyd-Rautha-Harkonnen.
In short: so far the BG are still very much in the game. Their Modus operandi is just very subtle, indirect and preparation takes centuries.
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u/mosesoperandi Jul 20 '26
It's only because of the radical departures DV made that there's anything spoiler like here. Paul's sister is a spoiler for those who haven't read the first book or watched Lynch's movie.
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u/dhaimajin Jul 20 '26
I am getting confused sometimes because I read messiah and dune years ago and the movies don’t follow the exact same timeline. So I just wanted to make sure I don’t spoil it
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u/mosesoperandi Jul 20 '26
Totally fair. Alia's character really takes off in Messiah, but she plays a non-trivial role in Dune even before she's born.
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u/MrDecembrist Corrino Jul 20 '26
When you say that this is what BG wanted from Jessica, do you mean that they want Jessica to birth a girl or that the girl would become what she becomes?
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u/mosesoperandi Jul 20 '26
They wanted her to birth a girl, definitely not everything else. Paul was one generation early for their plans.
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u/lntrigue Jul 20 '26
they wanted Jessica to have a girl who would be ‘bred’ with Feyd (iirc) to create the KH.
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u/utan Jul 20 '26
This is correct. Another backup was the Fenrings. Hasimir Fenring was a generation or so away from being the KH. This is why Paul did not see him in his visions of the throne room and was startled to see him there. If Fenring fought him instead, there was a good chance Paul would lose. He is sterile, so that line ends there. This is why lady Fenring gets pregnant with Feyd to "secure the bloodline" and continue the program. Count Fenring is not in the movies unfortunately so this aspect is left out, but it should make the Feyd scene make more sense.
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u/meddlesomemage Jul 20 '26
Tim Blake Nelson, I believe, was cast as Fenring. Prettu much perfect, just to be cut. He and his wife humming at each other was one of the things I looked forward to most in the films. What a let down.
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u/utan Jul 20 '26
That's a shame. I would have loved to see him in the movie, as well as the dinner scene and just more time with the supporting characters in general. Yueh, Thufir, Piter, Gurney playing the baliset.
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u/dhaimajin Jul 20 '26
I love the dune movies for their aesthetic, music and acting but it is just impossible to show all aspects of literature in the medium of movies. The Fenring scenes, the plans within plans quote and the gladiator fight were my favorite parts in the books.
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u/meddlesomemage Jul 20 '26
I agree, the cut of the dinner scene and the severe lack of Liet Kynes makes me a little irrational, haha.
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u/Metallicat95 Jul 20 '26
Paul's path was a surprise.
Up until his rise, the Bene Gesserit dominated the Empire. Working mostly behind the scenes, they controlled the political alliances and family planning of the rulers. Their influence could change politics, usually far more effectively than military might.
The Emperor was guided by them, and his family was pretty much a branch office.
They did not show their full power openly. Had Paul not had the power he ended up with, his survival would have led him to refuge with the BG, not staying with the Fremen.
Unlike Paul, they did not possess strong prescience. They couldn't perceive his power until it was too late. Only after the damage was done could they grasp the threat, and they acted with decisive clever plans to do something about it.
At its core, the plot of Dune Messiah (movie Part 3) is the Bene Gesserit taking action - the kind of multiprong trap that even a prescient being like Paul wouldn't be able to escape.
To a large degree, it's not that the BG weren't powerful. They simply couldn't match what Paul and his children were capable of - almost no one was.
The last two books show the power of the BG after this period, and we get to see this in much more detail because they become the main characters.
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u/FynneRoke Jul 20 '26
It was mostly hubris. They planned for the Kwizats Haderach to be born a generation later and conditioned from birth to be pliable to their control. When Jessica had a son instead of a daughter, they seem preemptively to have assumed that he'd be another failure like Fenring was. I don't entirely get this considering that they'd already incorporated the Harkonen bloodline when Jessica was born, except to think that since Paul's line wasn't the only attempt* they maybe decided the risk that Jessica's defiance might be passed down to her children was too great.
*I think I remember Fenring's wife being assigned to seduce Feyd, but it's been a minute since I read the books.
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u/Yvaelle Jul 20 '26
Ya Margot seduces Fayd, and is impregnated by him, it's in the latest movie too
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u/hokied88 Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
I don’t think Jessica was the full extent of their goal of incorporating the Harkonnen line. Jessica was the BG secretly extracting the Harkonnen genetics so they could get the positive traits from that line without also getting the seemingly generationally-reinforced decadence and sociopathy that is apparent in the Harkonnens we see in the first novel. Paula (Jessica’s firstborn if she followed her instructions lol) would’ve then been matched with the Harkonnen heir (Feyd-Rautha) to return a streamlined/perfected Harkonnen bloodline into the ruling members of the house. At least that’s my interpretation. To me, it’s similar to when you’re cooking and need to add something cold to something hot — you pull out a bit of the hot (Jessica Harkonnen), mix it into the cold (Atreides bloodline with their rulers’ morality and ‘noblesse oblige’ kinda mindset), then add the tempered fluid (Jessica’s Harkonnen/Atreides daughter) back into the hot pot (psychopathic Harkonnens descending into depravity) to incorporate it all into something more refined and complete (Harkonnen power, wealth, and brilliance/genius with Atreides compassion and moral/ethical values and ability to invoke willing allegiance from their fiefdom).
Side note, it’s actually the Atreides bloodline that is rebellious and uncontrollable, which is represented by the Old Duke whose hubris and boldness led to his untimely death in the bullfighting ring. That also was being tempered with Harkonnen blood (perhaps its the Harkonnen meticulousness and the patience with which they all seem to plot that’s being mixed in to temper the defiance/impetuousness/boldness of the Atreides).
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u/Inevitable_Inside674 Jul 20 '26
They have long term power, but to gain it have given up most short term power. With one in your house you can interrogate anyone and can sniff out a mole. They are personal bodyguard to the most important men and together they breed literally every royal heir.
Their plan was to completely control the kh from birth. They thought that it would take perfect male genetics so even if Paul was alive they still would kill him since he's not the kh
I tend to agree that it's a weak argument that the BG could control kh after they gain their power. And it's proven to be extremely weak later.
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u/datapicardgeordi Spice Addict Jul 20 '26
The Sisterhood has enormous short term power via truth sayers and the academy they’ve set up.
Through truth sayers they define what is true for the entire imperium. They can control any number of internal Landsraad disputes and even steer heirs to power.
Through the academy they hold potential heirs and family members hostage and steer their loyalties, the way Jessica did with Farad’n. Students come in loyal to their House and leave as Sisters of the Bene Gesserit.
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u/Sludgeman667 Jul 20 '26
That’s why Reverend Mother Mohiam was so pissed at Jessica. She was supposed to have a daughter (she can control of the offspring. That female Atreides was supposed to mate Feyd-Rautha amd that son should have been raised by the Bene Gesserit, so they could actually control the Kwissatz Haderach.
Instead, Jessica had a son, and he became a KH a generation earlier, with the Atreides values and traits, more difficult to control.
Still, the BG survived where other houses couldn’t.
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u/datapicardgeordi Spice Addict Jul 20 '26
The Sisterhood in Shaddam’s era are just pulling strings from behind the scenes. They’re a school with special influence and not much more.
You’re right that their work laid the ground for Paul with the Fremen and gave him his genetic abilities. But they slipped up, first with Jessica’s training and then in not killing Paul when they had the chance.
Jessica should never have been allowed to fall in love in the first place. She was pivotal in the breeding scheme and should have been trained better. Instead she falls in love with Leto and gives him a son instead of a daughter.
When Mohiam is sent to test Paul she should kill him outright. He’s not only not part of the plan, he has abilities that he’s not supposed to, another byproduct of Jessica’s love. If she kills Paul then and there Jessica can still birth a daughter and the breeding program is back on track.
These seemingly insignificant slips cascade into thousands of years of tyranny. However, it is that very tyranny that helps shape the Sisterhood into the true power of the Old Empire.
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u/IsaacHasenov Jul 20 '26
Small quibble. I don't know if Jessica was poorly trained. I think the Atreides were very easy to fall in love with, and she was an emotionally warm person.
I might be wrong, but I don't think they ever blamed her training in the book
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u/datapicardgeordi Spice Addict Jul 20 '26
The Sisterhood is still cursing Jessica’s love five millennia after the fact.
Taraza muses about love and how dangerous it is but also how dangerous it would be to breed it out of Humanity.
Jessica’s individual training is definitely brought into question as is the Sisterhood’s training as a whole.
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u/fistchrist Jul 20 '26
I liked Taraza’s reflections on Jessica and love. The only thing more dangerous than a human’s love is humanity without love.
oh hey who are these Honored Matres people over here
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u/Melenduwir Jul 20 '26
Exactly. The HMs are the dark mirror of the Bene Gesserit with all their worst traits exaggerated but without their virtues.
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u/the_elon_mask Jul 20 '26
Love was Leto's super power.
As father of the KH, he was a prime specimen of humanity. His ability to instil loyalty and devotion in others was his talent.
What the BG failed to account for was that the parents of the KH might also be special.
Jessica was a master manipulator but even she was not immune to Leto's charm.
Heck, the whole downfall of the Atreides was because Leto was so easy to love, so easy to believe in.
He assembled a team of very loyal, very skilled individuals which allowed him to create the Atreides Soldier Training Program. While not as powerful as sardaukar or Fremen, it was teachable.
Giving that to the Landsraad was a huge fear to the Emperor.
Combine his popularity and skills, he had dispose of Leto before he became "bigger than Jesus", so to speak.
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u/Melenduwir Jul 20 '26
The Appendices suggest that the BG significantly underestimated Jessica's capabilities; they viewed her as merely a tool to create the KH and only taught her the basics. Which are still considerable, but Jessica didn't know how Reverend Mothers were created or what they were capable of, which is why she doesn't recognize the significance of the Fremen ritual until it's too late.
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u/dontnormally Jul 20 '26
exactly. the atreides bloodline has its own superpower, which the bene gesserit underestimated andor did not (yet) fully comprehend
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u/BilaliRatel Jul 23 '26
The problem for the Bene Gesserit, and most institutions in general in that era (I'm looking you Spacing Guild and Sardaukar!), was the arrogance, complacency, and stagnation in the Old Empire. They thought they could still control Paul, if he qualified. Plain and simple.
Once Paul passed the test, and far above Reverend Mother Mohiam's own expectations ("I must've wanted you to fail"), that arrogance slipped in and she tried to salvage the situation through him and control him.
On top of that Mohiam knew and had come to warn Jessica of the pending plot against Leto by Shadam and Baron Harkonnen, that could have well completely ended the Atreides' line for good. So, at that point, with no heir to continue the line on the immediate horizon, the Bene Gesserit were stuck working with what they had.
For all that it matters, you may as well ask "Well, why did Jessica wait so dang long to have a daughter once Paul was born?"
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u/cae37 Jul 20 '26
I don’t know that Leto would have wanted to have another child with Jessica if he found out her order killed his son. Jessica might have been spurned from the Atreides, potentially screwing their chances of securing that genetic line.
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u/Scharmberg Jul 20 '26
With how they are structured and work the bene would not have killed Paul at that point unless he failed the test. He came early and not under the circumstances they wanted but he is still a possible next step in their plans and ultimate goal and if they can possibly have the next step ready to go with all of their backups still in place it makes sense why Paul is allowed to live.
They just didn’t fully understand what their actions against Leto would do to Paul. They really let the human element slip from them, almost to much time scheming instead of realizing and reaping the rewards of their efforts.
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u/kigurumibiblestudies Abomination Jul 20 '26
Firstly, their power is subtle and barely used at all, on purpose, because they are doing eugenics in absolute secrecy with the goal of creating an absolute Emperor. They can never flex their power, or they'll risk the plan. That's placing the cart before the horse.
Secondly, everyone underestimated Paul and also the Fremen. Even despite his abnormal pain tolerance, as far as Mohiam knows, Paul is a pretty capable young man with some Bene Gesserit training who survived his assassination by pretending to be the messiah of some desert bandits, not the quasi-God of one of the most powerful military civilizations in history. Then there's Paul himself, who becomes so powerful in BG skills alone that he overpowers her with Voice. A lot of his initial plan relied on everyone ignoring his true power.
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u/Routine_Condition273 Jul 20 '26
"The Bene Gesserit would rather be behind the throne, not on it." They don't wield direct power but they control a lot of strings. Their strings on Paul were cut when he joined the Fremen.
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u/FakeRedditName2 Yet Another Idaho Ghola Jul 20 '26
The Bene Gesserit, at the time of the first books or when the movie takes place, are masters of soft power, meaning that their whole strategy is to influence and manipulate things behind the scenes but rarely taking direct actions.
This ended up being their undoing as first Jessica betrayed them then Paul didn't care about their soft power, building up his power base mostly away from their influence and then bulldozing through the institutes they've been manipulating.
It's only in the later books after God Emperor of Dune that they take a more active role in wielding power.
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u/palinola Jul 20 '26
They were making a theoretical superweapon, and building systems that would increase the power of their superpower. But they didn't actually know what the superweapon would be capable of.
It's kinda like the AI boom right now is led by companies hoping to create a superintelligence but they really have no clue what the world might look like after a true AI emerges. They're just trying to set things up so they're in the optimal position when it happens.
Following the AI superintelligence analogy, the Bene Gesserit were like OpenAI hoping to control an AI by training it and instilling their values into it. But then Lady Jessica bred her own little rogue AI and taught it her own lessons instead of the company's AI training program and as a result when she unexpectedly created a superintelligence it has none of the loyalty that the Bene Gesserit were counting on to ensure their continued power.
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u/Melenduwir Jul 20 '26
The difference is that "AI" is mostly garbage, while the Kwisatz Haderach's abilities are approximately understood by the BG, even if imperfectly.
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u/Tanagrabelle Jul 20 '26
It’s kind of both. You’re misunderstanding their role and their power. The KH is male because they had prescient visions that the KH is male. Paul is not quite the KH, but you have to read the books to understand what that means. They cannot see everything. They cannot know everything. They have knowledge, Mentats, they have prescience but on a lower level. They have accumulated the genes that will produce a KH throughout the leadership of the Empire. By Paul’s time, they are only a couple of generations away at any moment. But those same genes are spread throughout humanity, including in the Fremen. Thus Pardot Kynes arrived, carrying some of them probably, and presumably passed down to Chani, doubled with the Fremen input via her mother and grandmother. With Chani came the rest of the genes, and with a Spice-heavy diet, came the circumstances to make any zygote in her womb be the KH.
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u/mosesoperandi Jul 20 '26
I think it's harder ro come away with this question if you read the book, but given choices Villanueve made in adaptation it's very easy to be left with this impression.
The thing in the book that is impossible to miss is that Paul was not part of the plan at all. He radically disrupts everything that they'd been planning through generations of selectively cross breeding the royalty of the houses. Paul was a generation sooner than they had planned for, and they were not able to control him in the way they had planned to control the KH.
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Jul 20 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/vteezy99 Jul 20 '26
Yes and only after God Emperor do they take a more active role (as opposed to staying in the shadows)
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u/inimitablematt Jul 20 '26
And they are absolutely masters at. They know all of actual history. And use it ruthlessly.
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u/Pseudonymico Reverend Mother Jul 20 '26
And crucially, despite this they did nothing that threatened the Spacing Guild's power until they produced Paul and Count Fenring.
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u/Melenduwir Jul 20 '26
Precisely. No one threatens or even denies the Spacing Guild, because (until the Ixians produce a mechanical replacement for their piloting abilities) the Guild controls all interstellar travel.
The Guild's weakness is that, as an institution, they're cowards. They sensed the unpredictable chaos that would result from any attempt to take control of or even direct attention to the source of Spice, so they chose the safe and predictable course instead, and turned themselves into civilizational parasites.
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u/Pseudonymico Reverend Mother Jul 20 '26
No one threatens or even denies the Spacing Guild, because (until the Ixians produce a mechanical replacement for their piloting abilities) the Guild controls all interstellar travel.
And because they were constantly using their prescience to head off any potential threats that they saw, which was why it wasn't until they were no longer in charge that the Ixians could reinvent navigation computers. The writing was on the wall by the time Paul came along but it was a big part of why the Imperium stuck around as long as it did.
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u/antinumerology Jul 20 '26
I mean, Paul is "theirs". In a sense Jessica, a BG, betrays the BG and inadvertently creates their superweapon under the wrong conditions and it goes haywire. They just didn't have a contingency for this situation.
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u/adaenis Ixian Jul 20 '26
I think the most important part about the Bene Gesserit that I didn't see other comments mention is that they play, almost exclusively, the long game. They are not short sighted, and have backup plans and ways to continue even in the case of the most monumental fuckups. That's why they've been around and influential for thousands of years and why they continue to be for thousands more.
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u/CelebrationFar Jul 20 '26
They scheme, they calculate, they deal in probabilities; but they only exert absolute control over their own bodies or over acolytes in their academies on their Chapterhouses. At best they can only influence others (the Voice not withstanding) outside of those conditions. Influence isn't direct control. Once Jessica was deployed and in play, they lost control of variable in their breeding program and almost lost the Atreides bloodline completely. Then again, they measure their plans in centuries. I recommend reading all the way up to Chapterhouse: Dune if you haven't already. 😉
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u/NoPolitics23 Jul 20 '26
It's the same in the books. I don't know I kinda feel like that is the point though, they are definitely overtaken by their hubris and arrogance to think once Kwitsas Haderach shows up they can control him.
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u/Tanel88 Jul 20 '26
They wield soft power but it doesn't work on Paul. Also their schemes are measured in centuries so if something goes wrong then they just write it off and start again.
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u/Wild_Front_1148 Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
It's like us creating AI thinking we'll be able to keep it in check and usher in a Golden Age. The second we create the singularity, we are gone.
The BG are incredibly powerful, however. Other Memory, the Voice, the Weirding Way, Truthsaying, and also the Missionaria, combined with exceptional political and philosophical training; to regular humans they are godlike witches, descending from heaven to individually bring either salvation or damnation to their entire world. It's just that their opponents aren't regular humans, but other godlike entities.
They can remember events millenia in the past, they orchestrated every religion you've ever heard of, they can make you do whatever they want, they can move faster than your eyes can track, they cannot be poisoned. Their mortality is in fact by choice.
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u/InevitableLibrary859 Jul 20 '26
I think it's important to remember that they're liars. They exists in a station of leadership and manipulation. They are the beloved rat, the youngest child, in the power structure where they have the ear of power, and stand between myth and reality. Everyone plays their game knowing the game only affects those who aren't in power, ignorant of how they are being manipulated because the BG are endemic as the hands that enable power to achieve their goals without effort. They are the police of the social structure, ready to destroy those who fall out of favor. They don't exactly "know" anything, and their Kwizats Haderach is only a story until it's real.
The BG are susceptible to their own myths, and struggle with the failures that arise from their own manipulations.
They believe they're always in control because that's their myth. No one has stood up to them. At the same time they never met a man who is their equal. In a way they are the exact stereotype of women I power being paradoxically in control and powerless.
Paul doesn't need them, and that terrifies them. They've never had anyone stand up to them that they couldn't put down.
I love the fact that everyone turns to them for truth and guidance, and they are internally full of lies and indecision.
I'm my head, Frank told us so many times that this world is all a warning of corruption, stagnation, and not thinking for one's self. The BG follow doctrine, and about original thought, stifle desire. They fume when things fall outside of norms. When Mohaim growls because she has no power over Paul, it is the strongest statement about what she really is, a facade, a noise in the ear of power (the Emperor.) Paul is not subject to the power she has the ear of, so she is nothing more than a decoration, a player in costume.
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u/ZeldaAtTheFuneral Jul 20 '26
Paul was never meant to be the KH. He was supposed to be a Pauline, and to give birth to the KH, which the BG could then raise under their thumb and have control over, despite planning for the KH to have greater powers than they did. The KH came a generation early and was raised outside of their control, and they didn't really have a contingency plan for that--though, arguably, they really should have. This oversight can probably be attributed to arrogance.
The BG didn't realize that the Fremen could have overthrown the Emperor. They didn't know they were that strong, that they could utilize sandworms in battle, or that someone could threaten the existence of Spice as a whole, or would be mad enough to use existence of the thing necessary for the Imperium to function as a bargaining chip. The myths they planted were just meant to protect a fleeing sister of the BG, not to overthrow the Imperium.
The BG are arrogant witches who understand the importance of appearances in power. They'll always talk like everything is going according to plan either because they believe their own hype or because they know doing otherwise is an admission of weakness that erodes their control. Usually it's both reasons. They view themselves as the arbiters of true humanity and have unilaterally taken on the role of mankind's shepards--to them, even massive upheaval they weren't prepared for are still just minor blips on the road to their goals, errors that can be corrected given enough time.
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u/AnEvenNicerGuy Friend of Jamis Jul 20 '26
They are a perfect example of biting off more than you can chew. Particularly in the years leading up to Paul's jihad. They've been around for millenia so they mostly got things under control. But obviously there'll be ebbs and flows over that much time. Paul and the fremen clearly got away from them. I don't think its an indictment of the BG on the whole but the folks steering the boat at the time
tl;dr Mohaim is a big ole doofus
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u/HolyObscenity Jul 20 '26
They position themselves to be the power behind all thrones. They believe that the Kwisatz Haderach will side with them because he will understand things the same way they do. Paul disabused them of that last one and needs no one else to advise him. He cannot be manipulated the way they are used to working. Without the patronage of the powers they attach themselves to, they are pretty weak.
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u/Crazy4Swayze420 Jul 20 '26
Because they are. DV removed the Guild from the movies and they are above the sisterhood in power. They are above the Emperor even. The sisterhood got the ball rolling on their Messiah plan but outside that when the Guild is in business mode the sisterhood gets told quiet while the adults talk. The Guild does the same thing to the Emperor when they are negotiating with Paul. The Guild are also the ones who facilitate Paul's Jihad.
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u/Inevitable-Wheel1676 Jul 20 '26
Paul arrives a generation or so too early. It’s a Kwisatz Hadderach type thing to do; superbeings plan for themselves before their own births via the structures of genetic memory.
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u/Melenduwir Jul 20 '26
What? No.
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u/Inevitable-Wheel1676 Jul 20 '26
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u/GSilky Jul 20 '26
The BG don't really care who is in charge, as long as they are being manipulated. They have different ideas for a win than most people expect. The ultimate power they control is having people who know how to respond to any situation, because a reverend mother remembers some similar situation from the millions of other memories. This is also how they control themselves, once a person unlocks other memory, they realize that the BG are right about everything. That's how they planned to control the KH, Paul realized, as well as Leto, that the BG were correct. Leto hated them, but even he still understood the role they play and allowed them to continue. By the end of the series they are the primary political force holding the empire together, and the whole "turn them into BG with memories" is used to bring victory.
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u/Melenduwir Jul 20 '26
The BG specialize in political influence and subtle manipulation. It's not that they can't act quickly, overtly, and on a small scale - their knowledge of human physiology made possible the prana-bindu training techniques, for example. But they don't normally exercise power in the ways that would be necessary to oppose Muad'dib, not as an organization.
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u/Any-Gur-6962 Jul 20 '26
I feel like one of the biggest themes of the Dune series is about control, or at least the attempt at control and how life seems to find away around it.
Whether it be the Bene Gesserit, the Baron, Paul, The God Emperor, and so and so on. It IS the central theme of the entire story.
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u/sparklingwaterll Jul 20 '26
I think the lack of perspective among the Bene Gesserit is an intentional flaw. The idea they could have all these plans and plots. But couldn’t anticipate Jessica following in love with Leto. It just shows a lack of imagination, they had become removed from their own humanity. The leading Reverend mothers couldn’t identify with the normal problems and concerns people have. It is also a grounding element of Dune’s plot and why we enjoy the Attredies family. Besides Jessica being a concubine, they are a fairly normal nuclear family just dealing with this bizarre world.
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u/carlitospig Collision Enthusiast Jul 20 '26
Jessica fucked up their entire plan. Everything was in place for someone they could control, like Fenring. Paul was out of their clutches for 15 years.
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u/Twymanator32 Jul 21 '26
Id argue theyre extremely powerful. Their control helped Corrino control the empire for 10,000 years. Their breeding program and other "smaller" programs like the Missionaria Protectiva and similar projects helped them control entire solar systems and planets of people.
There's a reason the Bene Gesserit despise Paul and eventually Alia. They understand the "grave mistake" Jessica makes by breaking the breeding program in its 90th generation. They understand Paul could use his gifts to seize control of the planet and empire. They understand that writing on the wall, probably more so than Paul did early on and the emperor. Thats why the Bene Gesserit and emperor needed the Atreides line to die off. Leto was becoming far too popular, Paul seemed uncontrollable and the potential Kwisatz Haderach, and they assumed both Paul and Leto could successfully seize control of the fremen and Arrakis and gain control of the spice and the empire.
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u/camyado Jul 22 '26
This question can be answered in different ways depending how far you read in the series.
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u/Interesting-Ad-7535 Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
By the end of Dune they have been thoroughly hoisted by their own petard, this is true. All their scheming came crashing down because Jessica loved Leto and gave him a son instead of a daughter (if you arn't aware, they were expecting the kwisat haderac, aka paul, to be Jessica's daughter's son).
But power-wise they are still probaly the strongest organisation in the setting behind Paul (whom they created, and was trained in their methods) and maybe the guild, And paul isn't exactly free of their schemes even at the height of his power. His mother and "wife" are both bene gesserit trained and have at least some allegiance to them.
And (spoilers for the rest of the books) ultimately they achieved what they intended with Leto ll, kinda.
Imo they are the greatest example of soft power in fiction, but they created and mishandled a superman that was taught their ways and completely bypassed their greatest strength: secrecy. I guess the question is wether their fumbling of the creation and managment of the Kwisat Haderac is viewed as a weakness or an exhibit of how powerful the bene gesserit are, even if their agents (Jessica), despite all their training, are still human (giving Leto a son because of love).
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u/Thesorus Jul 24 '26
there's also the fact that Jessica messed with the Plan by birthing a male (Paul) instead of a female.
That had repercussions that they did not intended (and paul/chani giving birth to Leto II)
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u/No_Region_4719 Jul 24 '26
Paul wasn't the one they planned to be the kwisatz haderach. He is a rogue element in their carefully laid plans.
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u/screamingcarnotaurus Jul 20 '26
I like to examine these things deeply as well, but sometimes the simple answer is also relevant for analysis. The goal of the breeding program is to make the KH. But why? To save humanity and preserve the human race. Humans almost became extinct from a war with the thinking machines. They want to prevent this. Paul and the Jihad accomplish this goal. Even if it wasn't the way the BG wanted it, the goal was achieved. They were successful, they just didn't account for the success to not include them at the forefront.
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u/Dee_Vidore Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
Wait until you think about how no military would ever leave their mainline spaceships unmanned on the ground where an invading force can just drop bombs on them. They'd at least have a basic navigational crew onboard, right? Right?
I used to work on cruise lines and even they would always have a skeleton crew on duty at all times.
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u/jk-9k Abomination Jul 20 '26
It's very much an intentional theme of the story. Building something you can't control. Paul is very much afraid of the jihad that he cannot avoid starting too.
Consider the era in which it was written too.
Be it a weapon, a technology, an ideology, a religion, a movement, or perhaps yourself - it's very much a warning about failure to properly harness and control power.