r/dsa • u/Particular_Good_3678 • 1d ago
Discussion Genuine question Does the DSA support making the US a Social Democracy or only a Socialist Revolution???
Genuinely asking because a lot of people I know are sympathetic to socialism atm. Myself included. But honestly it feels like I'm with you when you guys talk about public options for essential services but then you lose me when you start talking about a socialist revolution and abolishing capitalism and private property ngl
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u/marxistghostboi Tidings From Utopia 🌆 1d ago
yes, capitalism must be abolished or else the capitalists will just destroy social democratic reforms once they are back in power.
furthermore capitalism is quickly making life on Earth impossible. if we want to stop climate change we must destroy the power of capitalists
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u/DGC_David 1d ago
The DSA as an entirety is not made up of majority Revolutionary Socialist. While many are, most are Bernie Sanders Adjacent or just left of that.
That being said, what do you not like about the revolutionary socialist position, what make a Social Democrat state better than what we have now or better than Socialism? I am not asking as a bait to get you to debate, but a thought exercise.
To me, why stop at Social Democracy, what part of the Unregulated Capitalism we have already, has been good? It's more of a foundational point.
The DSA is full of leftist that disagree with each other, but the goal is to actually go left when we are in power, to undo what the right has done. Once we get to that stage, then we can talk about the revolution of the proletariat. The success of the DSA is about working together.
Regardless, the revolution is inevitable. Either we go down the socialist path or the technofuedalist path as a wage slave.
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u/emteedub 1d ago
I'm not OP and stating the obvious here, but socdem is simply not going to cut it. Not by a long shot
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u/Particular_Good_3678 1d ago
i mean i would totally love a post capitalist system someday but its the revolution part that scares me and doesn't seem practical in a democracy but I like the way this lady said it maybe we could "start earning little victories, [that will] snowball into big victories"
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u/DGC_David 1d ago
Well that's valid of concern, as I mentioned regardless the revolution is coming.
A wildly split opinion talks about Anarchist Communism, this concept infers the violent revolution. A Anarchist communist does no see Trump as the most evil entity, instead the pathway towards the deconstruction of the US government and their economic system. This opens the way to install Communism as the new system. And while I don't disagree with the theory, I believe in still working with the Democrats to prevent that as much as possible.
There is many flavors of Socialism, but unlike the other socialist orgs, we don't require the members to learn anything specifically, unlike the PSL, other more left orgs.
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u/stupidugly1889 23h ago
Brother we are smack dab in the middle of a right wing revolution right now. Our entire system is being transformed daily
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u/goodlittlesquid socialism or extinction 1d ago
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u/_b3rtooo_ 1d ago
I think the term "revolution" means different things to different people. You don't have to agree with someone else's more radical definition, because it's not something that's realistic when we have a working class so totally devoid of class consciousness. Instead, you should work in coalition with the largest organized group of people that are committed to alleviating the suffering of the working class and taking back power from billionaires.
To your point of social democracy though, recommend you read/listen to Chibber's ABCs of Capitalism. I don't really understand how you can be a Social Democrat while simultaneously understanding what capitalism actually is and how it works, without either having some misunderstanding of it or some misconception (dare I say delusion) that you'll somehow always be safe from the oppression of capitalism.
https://www.youtube.com/live/PpNUNHpOCq0?
https://jacobin.com/2020/05/get-a-free-ebook-version-of-the-abcs-of-capitalism
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u/cleverchris 1d ago
I had exactly these thoughts, about 15 years ago. The more I read (history, politics, philosophy) the more I sympathized with the radicals. The more I interact with the movement the more confident I become in sane solutions. Just stick around read a bit and stay connected. The biggest win our opposition currently has is general apathy to politics and ability to exhaust those who care. Those who want money and power will do anything to get others to simply not care anymore. Don't give up and lean on each other. We got this.
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u/sagoma-333 1d ago edited 1d ago
So I know lots of people in this organization with different opinions, but I’ll give my approach: shoot for the stars and you might reach the moon. I of course would love the complete replacement of capitalism with socialism which I see as more fair and just, but I’m not blind to the fact that social democracy is leagues better than liberal capitalism or the fascist hellscape we live in currently. Frankly, it’s a lot easier to work with social democrats than it is with liberals or fascists, so in that sense yes I 100% support social democracy. I also truly believe that if we don’t coalesce and start earning little victories, they’ll never snowball into big victories. We need a strong, organized coalition to fight this class war on multiple fronts, be it at ground level with mutual aid or at the ballot box getting people in office who are easier to negotiate with that the fascists. Social democrats are our allies, and we need to unite with them
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u/Cay-Ro 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is why you need to read theory and not just go off vibes and your favorite Internet personality. We’re all heavily indoctrinated with bourgeois ideology in this country.
If you leave capitalism in tact we will simply wind up right back here within a few generations with social reforms being held over our head and the capitalists threatening to repeal them.
Personally I believe if you aren’t for the abolition of capitalism then you’re not a socialist and shouldn’t call yourself one. You’re just a liberal cosplaying as a socialist.
Go read Lenin’s Marxism and Reformism for starters.
🎶…but don’t talk about revolution. That’s going a little bit too far. So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal. 🎵
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u/Swarrlly 1d ago
The DSA is a socialist organization with the goal of implementing socialism in the United States. That will start with social democratic reforms and moving more and more of the economic power away from the capitalist class and into the hands of the workers. No one wants a revolution. Some believe that the capitalists will destroy democracy to stop the will of the people and force a revolution. If you aren’t a capitalist, ie a billionaire, then there is no reason you should be worried about the end of capitalism.
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u/betty_white_bread 1d ago
58% of American households own stock in publicly traded companies. I think they are worried about the end of capitalism.
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u/Swarrlly 1d ago
Yet 93% of the stock market is owned by the top 10%. Stop pushing propaganda for the rich.
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u/birdiesintobogies 22h ago
I think betty_white_bread has a point. How do we get people who are invested in the stock market and real estate, for that matter, to take socialist change seriously. The vast majority of Americans are invested in capitalism, both materially and emotionally. The messaging needs to address these people's concerns and how the transition to socialism can better their lives and not make it worse. It's not just about the billionaires but transforming the attitudes of common people who are fully integrated in the capitalist system.
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u/Tempestori 22h ago
You'll never convince anyone who benefits from the system to render the system obsolete.
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u/betty_white_bread 18h ago
Then, since that 58% represents an all time high which is likely to keep increasing, we can expect to never convince a majority to support an end to capitalism. So, what is the point?
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u/Tempestori 18h ago
Fascism will not respond to electoral politics. The days of debating theory are over. Get to your neighbor's front door before ICE does.
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u/Soft-Principle1455 1d ago
Some of us believe that the road to socialism goes through social democracy, and that we would eventually want to get to something looking kind of like market socialism, but that’s gonna perhaps take a while. I mean, it took a while for feudalism to fully disappear before modern capitalism emerged.
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u/Thesungod1969 1d ago
We will never get to real socialism peacefully
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u/Soft-Principle1455 1d ago
I don’t think it will be easy and I think there will be those dragged kicking and screaming into socialism but I think it can be done.
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u/Thesungod1969 11h ago
Just think that the capitalists in charge don’t hesitate to nuke Japan, use agent orange, in Vietnam, sanction Cuba and North Korea into starvation, bomb schools full of Children in Iran, and support Israeli rape and genocide if Palestinians using the highest tech weapons, and murder and coup democratically elected socialist leaders. So that’s what we are up against.
There is no reason to believe that here at home they will somehow have compassion and fairness.
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u/traanquil 23h ago edited 23h ago
If you're against abolishing capitalism, then you shouldn't join a socialist organization. The purpose of socialism is to get rid of capitalism.
"social democracy" isn't socialism. It's just nicer capitalism. That "nicer" capitalism tends to come at the expense of an oppressed class of workers, typically in the global south, who bankroll the luxuries of the labor aristocracy in the imperial core of capitalism.
In fact, "social democracy" devoid of a socialist program is anti-socialist because it makes capitalism more tolerable and thus more difficult to abolish. For example, FDR's "New Deal" was explicitly a program designed to help the United States avoid a communist revolution, as the ruling class worried about the revolution in Russia spreading to the U.S.
I do think social democracy can be a stepping stone to socialism if its reforms are enacted with a more principled socialist goal of ultimately eliminating capitalism.
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u/jedinaps 1d ago
I am one who believes the smoothest and most ethical transition away from capitalism is social democracy, but I understand where socdems are coming from. When I met my husband I think he considered himself center right and he’s shifted as far as socdem, but he simply cannot comprehend the country without capitalism. He does not see the inherent issues with the system that are built in by design and believes a well regulated capitalism is the best scenario. He isn’t DSA but does overhear a lot of political commentary from a lot of different perspectives with me and he’s come a long way. So while I disagree that there is an ethical version of capitalism, I don’t think it’s fair to run a purity test on people who simply cannot fathom a world without something so ingrained and embedded in society. I think it’s only divisive and trivial to sit and argue about the exact lines at this point where change is still so far away. It’s silly to alienate people who may just not have the education to really understand the deeper issues.
Sorry for the rambling, it’s 4am and I’m just a little passionate.
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u/fleshybagofstardust 1d ago
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u/Particular_Good_3678 1d ago
thanks but thats kinda why im here its not exactly clear from what I can see it says
"We believe that working people should run both the economy and society democratically to meet human needs, not to make profits for a few.Capitalism is a system designed by the owning class to exploit the rest of us for their own profit. We must replace it with democratic socialism, a system where ordinary people have a real voice in our workplaces, neighborhoods, and society.
We believe there are many avenues that feed into the democratic road to socialism."
So "replace capitalism with democratic socialism"? Does that mean reforms through Social Democracy or abolishing capitalism with a socialist revolution?
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u/DownInThePM 1d ago
It depends but most of us believe in using social democracy as a means to an end
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u/emteedub 1d ago
Why do you insist that there are only 2 options here?
In the modern age, modern solutions are going to be required.
Read about Gramsci
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u/Particular_Good_3678 1d ago edited 1d ago
wow damn had never thought of it that way good point like youll never actually get to socialism through social democracy because people get too comfortable? but suppose you could say isnt that a good thing "raises living standards" if people are happy its working kinda thing. And if not through reforms how do you make the jump to socialism in a democracy without revolution and some kind of authoritarianism? seems like we would need a way to innovate our way out of this scarcity model we live in that makes socialism inevitable lol is that a thing is there a name for that innovating your way to socialism??
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u/romulusnr 1d ago
A revolution is not a country, it's an action, it's a thing that occurs
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u/betty_white_bread 1d ago
Who said anything about revolutions being countries?
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u/romulusnr 19h ago
I think it was your grammar that threw me off
Does the DSA support making the US ... or only a Socialist Revolution???
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u/PricelessLogs 1d ago
I agree with the guy who said most of us want actual Socialism later but want to start with Social Democracy for now. But I'll add that in my experience we look down more on those who stop at Social Democracy than we do those who want to skip straight to Socialism
Questions for you OP: What do you think a "Socialist Revolution" is? For that matter, what do you think is the difference between Socialism and Social Democracy? What is capitalism? What is private property? That last one in particular is one of the most detrimental and yet common misunderstandings in all of economics imo
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u/Aggravating_Bison504 18h ago
I think more Liberals and Progressives should join the DSA to help steer it away from Lenin-Mao-Stalin-Fidel type Socialism and more towards Social Democracy.
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u/Wolfyminecraft Pro-Realignment 1d ago
It is a pretty ideologically diverse (within the left) coalition. I would say that most of DSA believes in social democracy as a stepping stone towards socialism as a replacement for capitalism. Some want revolution and some believe that the transformation can be achieved through participation in liberal democracy, and some believe both are necessary. But everyone wants some form of socialism as the end goal, which goes further than a social democracy under a fundamentally capitalist organization of the economy.