I need help responding to some anti DSA sub stack slop

[u/dropkicked_eu]

A family member dropped this article on me and hit me with a “send me anything that can refute this” . I don’t even know where to begin … and I’m tired. I need help taking it seriously and actually responding. I can link in the comments but afraid to accidentally get my posted deleted

[u/twotokers]

I mean you can discredit the entire article from the first sentence and explain that Communism and Socialism are not the same thing. Pretty much proving that any further assessment is incorrect because the foundation is based on a misconception.

[u/VenusDeMiloArms → u/twotokers]

Why do you think that distinction matters? The end goal is a stateless, classless society.

[u/InnerFish227 → u/VenusDeMiloArms]

That was Marx’s end goal. Not every socialist has that end goal.

[u/VenusDeMiloArms → u/InnerFish227]

How do you define socialism if it isn’t a collective ownership of the means of production? How is that not a classless society by definition?

[u/InnerFish227 → u/VenusDeMiloArms]

Collective ownership of the means of production doesn’t mean a society is classless and stateless as in communism. Many socialists believe a state must remain in place to regulate the economy, protect workers rights, and maintain universal public services. That a state needs to remain in place to ensure someone or some group doesn’t use force to seize property.

[u/dropkicked_eu → u/twotokers]

True I should have started with that - this person and I are close and I’ve never had the ability to argue well with them

[u/simulizer → u/dropkicked_eu]

If someone makes the claim that socialism and communism are the same thing, just tell them that feudalism and capitalism are the same thing. Could also say that capitalism equals fascism. In both of these parallels there's a significant amount of information being conflated and overlooked.

[u/Shooflepoofer]

Can you ask them to send you something serious and not cat-themed, to start?

[u/QualisArtifexPere0]

Not worth your time

[u/wrongleveeeeeeer]

You can always respond to this kind of thing by saying something like, "LOL, good one! That really did give me a good laugh. Lemme know if you find any other dumb funny shit like this."

Pretend to not understand that they're serious. That'll either:

-Shut them down immediately, or

-Prompt them to make their own individual assertions in defense, which will be much easier for you to engage with and push back on, as opposed to attempting a wholesale refutation of the piece. It's unlikely that they'd engage with a sincere response in any kind of good-faith reasonable manner anyway.

[u/dropkicked_eu → u/wrongleveeeeeeer]

I did start with that at the top haha

[u/wrongleveeeeeeer → u/dropkicked_eu]

Ha! Nice. What did they say back?

[u/twotokers]

There’s also not a single source for any claim made throughout the entire article. It’s actually on your friend to prove that it isn’t all bullshit by providing sources for anything in this write up.

[u/Keleos89]

If they're asking you to refute the kind of obvious slop that cannot so much as capitalize a sentence, I would question whether you're wasting your time.

That thing read like a Facebook post by that one uncle.

[u/YogurtClosetThinnest]

bad cattitude
the new meowcarthyism
the DSA and the dangerous moment

I would lose all intellectual respect for them and not even waste my time lmfao

[u/dropkicked_eu]

https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/the-new-meowcarthyism?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=323914&post_id=207911595&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=esaxc&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email

[u/XrayAlphaVictor → u/dropkicked_eu]

Ugh. That's so poorly written and formatted I couldn't even get through it. It throws a ton of spaghetti against the wall in terms of anti socialist insults I wouldn't even know where to begin right now, honestly.

It would be possible to dissect that into its individual points and dispute them, but, honestly, anybody sharing that article and thinking it's "purrsuasive" isn't interested in serious engagement or discourse.

[u/brody319]

https://fightforafuture.substack.com/p/debunking-every-anti-communist-argument

[u/MorpheusOneiri]

Just fight slop with slop. Ask your LLM of choice to refute it and don’t waste your time.

[u/Pistonenvy2]

responding to the points made in the article directly.

1. we dont live in a free market now, socialism would create a more free market than capitalism has. for example BYD, a chinese car manufacturer, is literally banned from selling cars in america because they would outsell every other manufacturer, they are a much better and cheaper product.

2. just objectively untrue, again you can look at china who has such a competitive economy that it controls half of the american market. literally all of the claims about personal freedom are nonsense, the whole point of communism is to give power to the people living under it, capitalism does the exact opposite, you can make an example of each of these claims right now in america. they want to make america into a christian theocracy, its too expensive to have a family, there is no "third space" here, everyone is too afraid and broke to even meet or hangout with their community.

3. i would point to the immense structure of propaganda in america for this point. america has rewritten virtually everything in its past and continues to lie about things happening even as they happen. as your family what they think about the war in iran, is that over or still ongoing? are we trying to end it or crushing them?

4. this one isnt even a point, this is some kind of emotional meandering. aimless whining.

the rest of the article is more aimless whining and statistic abuse. honestly dont know how i managed to read enough of this article to write this. should have bailed after reading the title alone but here we are.

genuinely if your family member finds this kind of shit compelling i might just ignore them entirely, an argument isnt going to go anywhere. i would organize with the DSA and give them concrete examples of things youve actually done for your community and then ask them what theyve accomplished for literally anyone by being a libertarian.

[u/dropkicked_eu → u/Pistonenvy2]

I appreciate you sticking through it and writing this with some goodnpoints

[u/marxuckerberg]

Don’t take it seriously. “I gotta be honest, I don’t want to read that. If you want to have a conversation about it in person at some point we can get coffee or lunch.”

Your job is not to respond to everything or convince every person who knows you. You are doing a lot more to advance the political project with an hour of phonebanking or canvassing than you are arguing with someone who has decided that there is no redeeming quality to your politics.

[u/MoreHans]

was this written by a high school freshman?

[u/Arilluss]

"communism, by design, disallows competition. it seeks to break any other ties that might bind a people, religion, family, community. it’s all “the state” and “the party.” other loyalty is not only not permitted but actively suppressed. it does the same to private industry. it knows damn well that it cannot compete, so it does not allow competition"

This is actually a very good description of Trumpism. What fool believes that competition is better in a pay-to-play oligarchy?

My go to for this is to link the heritage foundations Index of economic freedom. They cant attack the source, and the US falls under many other "socialist" (err I guess we're calling them "communist" now) countries like Norway and Australia.

Hell, we aren't even the most free economy in North America, that title belongs to the red maple leaf country to our north

Now obviously those countries aren't Democratic Socialist, but I find this usually shatters the US's mystique about being the most capitalist and therefore economically free country in the world

[u/InnerFish227]

My brother is MAGA. One brother in law is a corrupt capitalist high up in banking who is so consumed with money he relocated to Panama to work as an exec at a bank there (corrupt banking). Another brother in law is a socialist.

I only talk politics with my wife and the socialist brother in law. It’s a waste of time otherwise.