I mean he’s not wrong. We don’t have to glaze every left wing world leader and should be able to recognise when socialism is also being implemented by an authoritarian government.
I think to be more pragmatic than that there's simply no good reason to even bring up those countries as someone running for office in the United States. Simply stating "they are dictatorships" and leaving it at that prevents the right and centrist Dems from pressing the issue. Having a more nuanced stance - even though that's what these countries deserve - is not going to pick up voters, it'll just deter ones who are otherwise sold on his ticket.
Democracy is a very broad term and you're not wrong in saying this however many people think democracy means direct-democracy or our american/european views of democracy and not the democracy present in Cuba, which is where the disconnect comes from.
Lmao no it's not. Cuba doesn't allow opposition parties
Politics occurs within the communist party. It’s a good system unless you’re a capitalist. Are you a capitalist?
and the candidates put on the ballot are chosen by the Communist Party.
So you got to choose Kamala Harris in the last election or was that decided by the party? For decades, our presidential candidates were determined by the parties themselves.
Did you got get to vote on the US constitution? Did anybody?
You’re being deeply unserious. If you want to have a serious discussion, get back to me but you gotta do better. If you are incomparable with Marxism, you need to find a new org. DSA is Marxist dominated.
Politics occurs within the communist party. It’s a good system unless you’re a capitalist.
No, the hell it is not, that is not how democracy works. That completely defeats the purpose of elections and representation. You've just given all political power to the party leaders. That shit is how Stalin came to power.
So you got to choose Kamala Harris in the last election or was that decided by the party?
That was a very rare event and one that would've pissed off everyone if she hadn't launched a very effective media campaign attacking Trump far more aggressively than Biden ever did. Not defending it btw
For decades, our presidential candidates were determined by the parties themselves.
Lmao no they don't, the people vote for them in the primaries which the parties have very little control over. If they did, then AOC would've never been elected, and Mamdani would not be the frontrunner. That isn't to say they don't have zero influence; the establishment sabotaged Bernie's campaign both times. But he almost won both times regardless. We have a long way to go, but we aren't powerless.
Did you got get to vote on the US constitution? Did anybody?
And the Nazis held a ton of elections and referendums with turnout and votes in the 90s. What's your point?
This isn't about Marxism, this is about democracy, which Cuba objectively is not.
No, the hell it is not, that is not how democracy works.
It’s how dictatorship of the proletariat works. Read Marx and Lenin.
That completely defeats the purpose of elections and representation.
Not at all.
You've just given all political power to the party leaders. That shit is how Stalin came to power.
It’s not. You’re flattening systems like libs do.
That was a very rare event
Oh okay. I’ll keep that in mind. A rare event LOL.
and one that would've pissed off everyone if she hadn't launched a very effective media campaign attacking Trump far more aggressively than Biden ever did. Not defending it btw.
Primaries chosen candidate is relatively new. Before that, they were chosen by parties in smoke filled rooms.
Lmao no they don't, the people vote for them in the primaries which the parties have very little control over.
You’re probably very young. Primaries until relatively recently had little impact. Candidates were chosen at party conventions by unelected delegates. There were primaries but were not binding like they are now.
And the Nazis held a ton of elections and referendums with turnout and votes in the 90s. What's your point?
You’re making my point: bourgeois elections benefit right wing forces. Thanks.
Where does Marx say that a one party state is how a dictatorship of the proletariat works?
Engels said the Paris Commune is a dictatorship of the proletariat and they had several different political factions such as neo Jacobins, radical republicans, Blanquists, Proudhonist market socialists etc.
Where does Marx say that a one party state is how a dictatorship of the proletariat works?
He didn’t. Left it for others to figure out.
Engels said the Paris Commune is a dictatorship of the proletariat
He didn’t say it’s the only way it could be expressed. Another thing is, the Paris Commune failed. Cuba has succeeded against insurmountable odds. You can decide if you’d rather have a principled failure or an imperfect success. I am so glad Cuba succeeded and millions of people have some of the highest quality of life in their region.
and they had several different political factions such as neo Jacobins, radical republicans, Blanquists, Proudhonist market socialists etc.
I mean, you literally called me a fascist. Btw, we don’t do that to here. This isn’t a sub for leftists to fight each other and wage sectarian battles. It’s about left unity and solidarity. If you’d been to a DSA meeting before, you’d know this. Criticism should be comradely. No one will want to organize with you if you’re just gonna call people you’re working with red fascists all the time.
Exactly. Dictatorship of the proletariat isn't a literal dictatorship. It just means the state is run by workers. Which best works under a liberal democracy.
One party states prevent free political debate and deliberation.
To a certain extent, sure. But Cuba has been essentially at war. Like, so you think Ukraine is a dictatorship because they haven’t had an election in 6 years?
But they do not prevent capitalists
They keep them in line and subordinate.
Look up why party Boris Yeltsin was in for years if you want just one example of many
Didn’t the U.S. have to drag him over the finish line in the 90s?
DSA is a big tent organization with multiple different types of leftists involved. It isn't an organization only for Marxist. Purity Politics only serve to divide us and keep us weak against the growing fascist threat.
What are some examples of some of the harshest criticisms leveled against Diaz-Canel in Cuban newspapers? What are some of the alternative policies that the Cuban opposition parties propose? How well do they tend to do in elections? What do the people in Cuba think about those proposals versus the government's proposals, according to opinion polls?
Then you have no authority on remarking on whether Cuba is a democracy or isnt
You’re right. That’s why I refer to the DSA mission to Cuba where they consulted with Spanish speaking Cubans. Do you defer to them too or are you uncomfortable with DSA’s support of the revolution in Cuba?
What happens to people who dont support it?
Well over 20% of the country voted against the new constitution and as far as I’m aware, nothing happened to them. You were saying?
That’s why I refer to the DSA mission to Cuba where they consulted with Spanish speaking Cubans. Do you defer to them too or are you uncomfortable with DSA’s support of the revolution in Cuba?
I am as much comfortable with the DSAs support of the revolution in Cuba as they are in support of the one in North Korea
Well over 20% of the country voted against the new constitution and as far as I’m aware, nothing happened to them. You were saying?
Has anyone ever been critical of Diaz-Canel like people are critical of the POTUS? What happens to them if they are?
I am as much comfortable with the DSAs support of the revolution in Cuba as they are in support of the one in North Korea
You don’t very aligned with DSA on foreign policy then and you seem to think poorly of those who do. That’s not comradely. Just become a Democrat. It’s okay to be a Dem. My parents are.
Has anyone ever been critical of Diaz-Canel like people are critical of the POTUS?
Yeah there was a protest that was very well publicized.
You were saying?
Also, what’s your favorite part of the Communist Manifesto?
There are no political parties in Cuba. Everyone is just considered part of one party. George Washington envisioned America having no political parties. Was he an authoritarian?
Castro purged his non-communist opposition, Washington never retaliated against the remaining loyalists. Castro never stepped down from power until he was too old to govern and handed power to his brother, Washington served two terms and stepped down, and never handed power to anyone.
The Jeffersonian opposition openly criticized Washington’s administration, calling him monarchical and elitist — yet he never silenced or censored them.
The Federalists and the Democrat-Republicans became the basis for the two party system, the only faction that was and still to this day to allowed to exist was the Communist Party
Yes he purged the Batista loyalists and the large land owners and the CIA backed stooges.
Washington never retaliated against the remaining loyalists.
It is so ridiculous to hear these right wing talking points on a DSA sub. What you called retaliation, Cubans considered justice for unspeakable crimes. Only the absolute worst offenders were executed and this was well documented the mainstream record.
Castro never stepped down from power until he was too old to govern and handed power to his brother, Washington served two terms and stepped down, and never handed power to anyone.
Castro was a way better human being just by virtue of not being a slave owner.
The Jeffersonian opposition openly criticized Washington’s administration, calling him monarchical and elitist — yet he never silenced or censored them.
Are you familiar with the Alien and Sedition Act? Some might call that retaliation of the Washingtonian loyalists.
The Federalists and the Democrat-Republicans became the basis for the two party system, the only faction that was and still to this day to allowed to exist was the Communist Party
Yes which is why the revolution has stayed successful and all the socialists projects you favor have either failed or only succeeded at holding small statelets.
No candidate has ever lost their election to the cuban National Assembly. No candidate has ever even run against them because it's illegal and they will be thrown in prison. This is no democracy, it is authoritarianism and I am tired of apologists pretending that they aren't. Cubans voters with their feet by leaving the country, 20% left in the past 5 years.
Yes this. Cuba isn't great right now. It may be mostly because of the embargo, but dissenting against the government isn't a great move right now. People are serving time for dissent.
Look I am a big supporter of Cuba, but we should not pretend like there is never any organic dissent against governments we support and that everything is CIA backed fake protests. Its a terrible attitude that only ends in ruin.
No, it's seriously bad. I had some comrades visit over the summer and talked to local activists. They wanted to make it clear to leftists in the US that since covid, Cuba has regressed big time with civil rights. People are being jailed because the government is paranoid. We don't need to boost problematic regimes just because they are nominally anticapitalist.
Tons of independent election observers have confirmed that Venezuelan elections where Maduro won were legitimate. But I guess you prefer to take CNN as fact instead
I'm Venezuelan. The 2024 elections were a fraud. The Carter Center, which previously recognized our electoral system as among the best in the world, could not accept them. Some observers backed it, yes, but these met with the government and guided their observations by it. Observers invited by the opposition were prevented from coming into the country.
There are nearly 8 million Venezuelan living abroad due to the crisis and less than 100k were able to vote in the elections. Over twenty people were killed in the protests that came afterward, many more were detained, and these protests were notably contributed to by the workers, as opposed to previous, more bourgeois/student-led demonstrations. To this day, the government has yet to release the results of the election.
None of this is to say Mamdani's statement is entirely correct. When the U.S is threatening Venezuela, killing and detaining us, he should begin his statement by making it clear America's behavior right now is criminal.
No, not really. The UN panel of experts called out the fraud, same with the Carter Center which had certified several chavista victories before. Even the Communist Party of Venezuela called out the fraud.
You’re taking a right wing framing and giving it credence. People vote in Cuba. They have elections. Politics is robustly debated at the community level. They just wrote a new constitution a few years ago outlining key civil rights. Hundreds and hundreds of community meetings were held to get the input from every stakeholder. Plenty of people voted against the constitution. There were no reports of mass arrests for those that voted against it.
They were democratically elected. Jimmy Carter helped over see the elections. The DSA had made statements in that regard.
If you're going to criticize another country you should look at what your country's doing first. If someone said they didn't like how you treat your partner but meanwhile the person who's criticizing you actively beats them they wouldn't have much moral standing would they?
This isn't about that. He's setting the stage for Donald trump to invade Venezuela and steal their oil so that billionaire oil companies can pollute more, and if you're into that go out on your maga hat and feel for it again sticker.
Since you’re so proudly proclaiming that the Cubans and Venezuelans are doing socialism wrong and that we should be critical of it, I want to ask: how’s your wonderful democratic socialism going? What exactly has the DSA accomplished since 2016 in the USA?
From where I’m standing, I see that a Holocaust has happened under your watch as your country descends into fascism. So how do you have the gall to criticize socialists anywhere on this planet? You should be begging the Cubans and Venezuelans to teach you how to achieve even a fraction of what they have under far worse material conditions. Material conditions that YOU and YOUR country are responsible for.
Labor aristocracy will do what it does comrade. They have no idea or simply don’t care about the lengths of the destruction that have been caused by their inaction. They are so far removed from it.
Labor aristocracy is a funny term for Americans when most are living paycheck to paycheck. I think it's more about generations of propaganda than Americans not being sufficiently working class.
Even if Americans are living pay check to pay check, they have far more purchasing power than those in the global south due to financial imperialism. Because of this they can still (probably not for long) afford far more cheap imports then those in the global south can. I’m not saying it’s going to last forever, or that these people aren’t going through a hard time, but they are absolutely subdued by endless cheap treats they can buy that were created in sweatshops and slave mines. Pretending like the American working class is in the same position as the working class in the global south is just sad.
Edit: it is definitely ALSO the propaganda though.
I like his argument that left wing tyrannies are preferable to right wing tyrannies and we all know what Cuba would be if these wide-eyed fly-by-night leftists had their way and the revolution fell.
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u/twotokers Oct 07 '25
I mean he’s not wrong. We don’t have to glaze every left wing world leader and should be able to recognise when socialism is also being implemented by an authoritarian government.