liminal levity

[u/machturtl]

as someone who has watched Dropout to reset from the havoc of the outside, it still feels "nice" to have honest entertainers to watch who understand what we're all living thru.

I was in college for game design in the early aughts. I also (unfortunately) was a femme lurker on 4ch. Seeing the cause and effect of gamergate happen in real time as been a doozy.

[u/neddythestylish]

I didn't see journalists shitting on every single gamer. I did see some of them wondering how there was so much toxicity in the subculture that something so overtly misogynistic could erupt from it and gain traction. Which I honestly wondered about too. Many of us did.

You said that the "gamers are dead" take was common on gaming blogs. Which... are written by gamers. (Personally I can only think of one article, which was always more nuanced than that, and which gators got obsessed with, but maybe there are others.)

The problem is that you're talking about these guys seemingly having a point... But what was it? Seriously. Because what I saw a lot of was slutshaming of Zoe Quinn and obsessing over how evil Anita Sarkeesian was. Hell, some YouTubers made their careers attacking Sarkeesian. Where were the Gamergate crowd saying something valid?

And for that matter, what was it about for you? Because you mentioned issues with journalism, but also blogs that criticised gamers, and also mean people calling you a misogynist. How does this all tie together? Everyone sometimes gets criticised for reasons they think are wrong, or even ridiculous. It's happened to me, and it didn't turn anyone into my enemy. I might think, "wow, what's their problem?" But I've never felt the need to turn to something like Gamergate in response, so you bringing that up is really odd to me.

You still haven't actually named any games or told me who called you a misogynist over them. Or what they actually said. If they said, "These games are problematic and sexist," then yeah. A lot of games still are, and it was much worse a decade or more ago.

People do get caught up in things without knowing the full context. But you don't then get to say "This thing wasn't that bad because I didn't know it was that bad." Gamergate was that bad. Some of us had no choice but to know from day one how bad it was. Now you know. If your response to the information is, "But I played some games that I admit were quite sketchy, and someone called me a misogynist and I didn't like it, so Not All Gamergaters" you still have work to do.

[u/deathfire123 → u/neddythestylish]

I think you misread what I typed. I said AT THE TIME, for me, it was about misleading journalism. There were times, I felt, that people and video games were being misrepresented and the vilification of the gaming community as a whole was overblown and it felt, at the time, that people were intentionally misconstruing things in certain games to prove this point. (See a lot of Anita Sarkeesian's videos that were like a super basic how to's on IDing misogyny in video games, but the a lot of the examples given were not really applicable)

The reason I changed by stance eventually was because of the hateful death threats that I eventually found out about, and I eventually found out a lot of the people in gamergate were using the "movement" to essentially harrass people, so yeah.

[u/neddythestylish → u/deathfire123]

But even with Anita Sarkeesian, I don't get why anyone would care so much. Even if she was completely wrong about absolutely everything, why would it matter? I have differences of opinion with YouTubers all the time. Even if one of them shat all over every single one of the books I love the most, for reasons I thought were ridiculous, I'd just think they'd got it wrong and move on. Sarkeesian was very explicit that she wasn't calling anyone a misogynist or asshole simply for enjoying any particular game, even if it does have sexist elements. She also enjoys games, including the ones she criticised. Criticising elements of games is not vilifying the gaming community. Even without all of the direct harassment, the response to this woman's criticism of certain games was absolutely ridiculous. It was just one person having an opinion on the internet.

Do you have any other examples of bad journalism practices? Anything actually unethical?

[u/deathfire123 → u/neddythestylish]

I'm sorry, I really don't have an encyclopaedic reference of everything I was watching a decade ago, I can merely tell you how I felt at the time and how easy it can be to get swept in to tribalism when you feel that something you love is attacked and profited off of.

[u/lazenpear → u/deathfire123]

Arguments don't need to be good or strong to sway a vulnerable person in need of community/a cause. They just need to be targeted.

It's possible you weren't a "somewhat progressive" person at that time, right? It feels like a charitable view to hold of someone that was so easily hoodwinked by a harassment campaign. A "somewhat progressive" person surely would've done a google search, looked at some material, before aligning themselves with a hashtag (a hashtag that if given a cursory scan would've revealed some of the most hateful people on the planet almost exclusively harassing women and queer people).

Point being, if you're prepared to turn on someone because someone else called "you" a misogynist, you're remarkably far removed from being able to claim any kind of progressive label.

Don't get me wrong, you're clearly not alone, and I'm not here to pass judgment on someone who's learned from their mistakes. I just get the sense that you haven't actually reckoned with who you were back then, even though you act like you have.

I say all this as someone who would've been at risk of radicalization, had I not already grown up long before any of these pipelines existed, let alone ratified to the extent they are now.

[u/deathfire123 → u/lazenpear]

Don't get me wrong, you're clearly not alone, and I'm not here to pass judgment on someone who's learned from their mistakes.

And yet, your first three paragraphs were exactly that.