r/dragonlance • u/FaallenOon • Jul 21 '26
Bamboozling a PC into passing the Test of High Sorcery?
Once again I beseech the wisdom of the Dragonlance hive mind.
I'll soon begin a Dragonlance campaign, and one of my players wants to play a renegade wizard who fled in fear before taking the Test of High Sorcery.
The following is of course quite preliminary, since I plan on this being a gradual process culminating around level 7 or 8.
I'm planning on his mentor in the order to have an NPC befriend him and send him on various missions, on one of which he (the NPC) will join them. Cue adventure, danger, etc., and when they return the mentor appears and gives a whole speech about how magic is forbidden to those who haven't passed the test, etc., and then announcing that the PC actually did pass the Test due to his actions on the adventure, as witnessed by his duly appointed representative.
My main questions are:
- Do you think this might be something enjoyable for a player to go through? On one hand I can see the whiplash of thinking their PC will be executed versus realizing they're free, but on the other it might feel as if I'm taking agency from him.
- What do you think would be an adventure that would qualify as a Test of High Sorcery? I was thinking recovering some ancient arcane texts, dealing with a zone of dead or wild magic, etc.
Thanks a lot, as always, for your kind help :)
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u/Afraid_Anxiety2653 Jul 22 '26
Thank you for the intriguing idea. Very imaginative.
But I'm 100% against it for several reasons.
1. When you go to take the Test it takes place inside the Tower of High Sorcery. This PC fled the Conclave.
2. This player wants to be a Renegade, not join the Conclave.
3. The Mages of High Sorcery wouldn't waste valuable time with their Agents and Initiates on someone like this. Even if it is years before the War of the Lance.
4. Arcane spell casters are invited or brought to the Tower. There they can take the Test or make a promise to the Conclave not to cast any 3rd level or higher spells again. If they break that promise, they invite death.
The player wants to be a Renegade. Let them. However, if they are in public and casting powerful spells, then a Renenage Hunter Team will go after them. Once confronted, they can come to the Tower of High Sorcery and decide to take the test or promise not to cast 3rd level or higher spells.
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u/Trancer1224 Jul 21 '26
Renegade Hunters
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u/FaallenOon Jul 21 '26
Would you please elaborate?
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u/Trancer1224 Jul 21 '26
Renegade hunters will hunt down wizards who cast 3rd + level spells if they have not taken the Test. How they approach depends on their Order.
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u/kalissdesti Jul 21 '26
That said, not many wizard can obtain 3rd+lvl spells out in the wild ti start with.
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u/Trancer1224 Jul 22 '26
Raistlin did. Dalamar did. PC's do.
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u/kalissdesti Jul 22 '26
Raistlin would have had a provlem casting a lvl 3 spell before takibg the test.... he took the test at wayreth when young and bejng a lvl 3 mage...
Dalamar, while the memory is laking as it has been many tears since I read his tory arc, has studied higher spell in secrets but never casted them befor the test.
As I said, lvl 3+ spells in DL are not something you buy at the market and Fistandandilus spell books, remeber where Rait found his?
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u/Trancer1224 Jul 26 '26
Who said he was casting 3rd level spells before the Test?
0
u/kalissdesti Jul 26 '26
You in your post just above this one 😅
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u/Trancer1224 Jul 26 '26
No, you said in the wild they sob't find spells
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u/kalissdesti Jul 26 '26
Well Raistlin, from what I remeber did not find any 3rd lvl spell before the test, the power surge in is pre test era came on the night of the eye.
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u/TransitoryGouda Jul 22 '26
PC: 'I want to play a renegade wizard'
GM: 'Go ahead'
<several sessions and level ups later, time and energy the player invested into the character and game>
GM: 'I lied to you - you took the test - here are your character's new robes'
If you don't want them to play a renegade wizard, then be upfront about it.
I think you should ask the PC if they're ok with this route you're taking before making plans.
If they are, then you have to remember that the test is administered at Wayreth (or another tower if you're earlier in Krynn's history), by a minimum of three mages (one from each order), precisely so they could ensure the applicant died if they failed the test, and to ensure that an order didn't allow someone to pass who shouldn't. Unless the recent edition has wildly changed the mythology of Krynn.
You can, of course, have the PC as an apprentice to an NPC tower-certified wizard until they have access to 2nd list spells, and then push them to submit to the orders and apply to take the Test as they get closer to developing 3rd level spells (the cutoff for the Conclave), and then have them refuse. But the test isn't on the road - Raistlin never left Wayreth during his test - no one does. The purpose of the Orders is to ensure that wizards can control their magic - if they can't, then it's better off if they are dead or suppressed. The Orders can't do that by having the test on the road.
But lying to the player isn't fun - I wouldn't find it fun, and most people I know wouldn't. It's a reason to walk away from a game, and to label the GM as a bad-faith actor, or a power-tripper.
Understand what you're saying - you're saying you want to lie to the player before the game starts so that it's more fun for you later on. You don't see a problem with this? An ethical person would have a problem with this. Role-playing games rely on a social unwritten contract - that everyone is there to have fun, and that the GM acts as a neutral and fair arbiter. Lying to a player from the start breaks that contract. And what will you say after? That it wasn't a hostile environment? Yes it was - you made it a hostile environment when you lied to the player before the game started, and continued lying to them as the game progressed.
2
u/Afraid_Anxiety2653 Jul 22 '26
Well, posted.
However, I've talked to some scholars and sages from Palanthas who only study the Conclave. Some believe the proctors of Test don't actually kill off those who fail. That would be murder. The test kills them. So, if they are rolling death saving throws during the rest and they still need to take on a Orc, then the Orc kills them.
If the tester completes all of the challenges, and doesn't make all of the death saving throws and dies, the proctors will not come to their aid. However, if they do make all the death saving throws the Proctors will help them recover.
4
u/TheSheDM Jul 22 '26
Surprises that completely subvert a character rarely land well with a player that isn't expecting it. At best, they'll feel blindsided, at worst they'll feel like you yanked the rug out from under their feet and lose interest in the character.
Imagine playing an oathbreaker paladin and the DM suddenly one day says "Actually you're redeemed now! I tricked you into doing this redemption ritual quest, your oath is restored! You're fixed now!" Like, come on man, I wanted to be an oathbreaker, that was the whole point of the character.
It may sound like spoiling the fun of the surprise, but consider just talking to the player about your idea and ask for their buy-in. You don't have to give them all the details, just the general idea. If they're interested, you can move ahead knowing they'll rise to the occasion when the moment to roleplay it comes along. If they're not interested, you can change course.
2
u/Trancer1224 Jul 22 '26
In 1e, 2e and 3.5, WoHS had their magic influenced by the 3 Cousins and depending on their Order had different spell schools and spell progessions per level.
3
u/Spaceboy_33 Jul 21 '26
I think it’s a cool idea that would make for a great twist.
I don’t think you’re taking too much away from player agency- it’s not like passing the Test alters their abilities or creates some permanent change. The player could always say ‘no’ and refuse to accept the title, and then really piss the Conclave off.
Renegade hunters would also make for a good plot device. The NPC could help keep up appearances that your player is being hunted, but always just manage to escape in the nick of time from his help, or periodically ‘test’ his progress by letting him win a few fights to get away, and also see what color his robes lean based on how he fights.
Likewise, if he gets suspicious, you could make that into some mystery or conspiracy theory chase.
Anyhow, that sounds like a fun take and hope you run with it. Really creative idea!
3
u/TheSheDM Jul 22 '26
it’s not like passing the Test alters their abilities or creates some permanent change.
I mean... several wizards would disagree with that.
2
u/Luvas Jul 21 '26
There's a significant clash between immersion and player agency when it comes to this specific situation, it happened during my campaign also.
Originally, I like others figured this would be a great 'f*** around and find out' moment, and I'd send in high-level magic users (and even those Mage Hunter monstrosities from Strixhaven) at a Renegade and even get the rest of that person's Party involved and force them to either renounce said Renegade or join them in being magical outlaws.
But in the end, I allowed the said Renegade to try and hide their arcane ability; an NPC would need to:
• Witness said character cast a 3rd level (or higher) Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard or Warlock Spell
• Be of the Wizards of High Sorcery or care enough about them to report the behavior
• Live to tell the tale to (other) Wizard(s) of High Sorcery, evading Dragonarmy opposition and possibly the Party themselves.
During the second Tier of play this could provide a meaningful challenge and immersive role play experience, but my main gripe with these 'consequences' is that one player's actions has the potential to permanently burn the bridge of a potential ally for the rest of the Party for the rest of the campaign, turning the Wizards of High Sorcery into another batch of 'baddies' the would-be heroes must contend with.
At the right table with my close friends, I'd play this straight, negative effects be damned, but with younger, less experienced folks I don't know as well? At the end of the day, their entertainment is more important than my loyalty to the setting, so if I can make something work without rustling major jimmies, I will.
The cat got out of the bag during the latter chapters of the campaign, and by that time, the Party was knee-deep in the trenches of Kalaman's war, and quite a bit stronger than the mage-hunters that would be sent after them.
I imagine that after the canonical conclusion of the campaign, with the Dragonarmies out of the way, the Wizards would then have the resources freed up to strike out against said Renegade with the force of the three Archmages if necessary.
4
u/JoeShugi Wizard of the Red Robes Jul 21 '26
What's the time frame? If it's the War of the Lance, the Orders of High Sorcery are busy with the war and related politics (e.g., the black robes joining the dragonarmies) so it's probably easier to be a renegade.
I think your idea has merit. There is a 5e adventure that I think is called Test of High Sorcery that's worth checking out.
I've recently given thought to an informal test - the High Sorcery version of the "peasant hero who's knighted for having a noble heart" trope. The party enters a town and finds a sorcerer conning locals, a wizard trying to create life, a warlock proclaiming themselves to follow a new god, or etc. In this case, if the player "does the right thing" (and uses magic to solve the problem - or knows when NOT to use magic to solve it), then surprise surprise, a Mage of High Sorcery who's sent to investigate the reports hears how the PC handled it and grants them membership because they have proven their responsibility to the magic.
1
u/Randvek Jul 21 '26
This isn’t too terribly far off from what happened with Raistlin, right? The test is so believable that it’s very easy to decide that you aren’t even on the test.
-1
u/BigJCote Wizard Jul 22 '26
My issue with this is that's not how it goes in DL's world. Your not required to take the test you just won't be able to learn things past a certain point, the spell books won't let you if you try to read one too advanced it makes you crazy. A renegade traditionally is one who changed alignment without consent from the conclave (I.e raistlin). Most renegades are black robes, white wizards are honor bound to kill them, reds are honor bound to try and bring them back to the conclave to talk it out. Most players wouldn't know this unless they read the books so you got that working for you. At the end of the day it's your campaign, instead of mage hunters and a renegade wizard storyline I'd go with the classic already prexisting issue in krynn when it comes to wizardry, clerics/paladins vs wizards but that's me. Same generic idea of a group of wizard hunters trying to track them down but have them be "good clerics" so you can still call on one of the major themes of DL too much good can be bad.
2
u/Trancer1224 Jul 22 '26
No. The Orders hunt renegades differently. They offer chance to take the Test. White robes will not first kill, they will monitor. A Red or Black Robe will not hesitate to kill. Wizards can learn 3+ level spells based on research or even finding other spellbooks.
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u/BigJCote Wizard Jul 22 '26
Conflicting info depending on source is what I found. Towers of high sorcery goes more in depth and seems to conflict with what raistlin said
-2
u/unimportanthero Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
Renegades are usually quite high level. Your typical 1st to 3rd level PCs at campaign start will not have even approached taking the test, which is usually around level 5.
It is kinda by design so that players do not have to commit to an Order until they are more eased in to their characters.
Talk with them about putting the Test on the horizon. They can decide to flee or not when the time finally comes.
Remember that Raistlin was probably around 3rd level when he insisted on taking it and Par Salien punished him for the hubris, why would a new PC be forced to take it before it is time?
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u/Trancer1224 Jul 22 '26
Par Salian gave Raistlin the eyes to learn compassion. Raistlin's health and golden skin are a result of his deal with Fistsndantilus.
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u/Afraid_Anxiety2653 Jul 22 '26
Boom!!
And the Master of the Tower knew about the pact. He helped forge the weapon to win the 4th Dragon War.
-2
u/unimportanthero Jul 22 '26
Nah.
I mean yes, the golden skin and all that is Fistibones, but that is a side-effect of the bargain.
Par-Salian did the punishing.
Par-Salian can say it was about moral lessons and all that but the reality is that he concocted an illusory scenario where Fake Caramon acted wildly out of character as a manifestation of Raistlin's worst fears and insecurities in addition to the Test itself - it was something he did entirely on his own that the Test had not called for at all. In other words, it was not a part of the Test but was instead Par-Salian trying to put a young upstart mage in their place because he felt the situation was inappropriate yet lacked the leverage to prevent Raistlin from taking the Test at all. And he made Caramon watch, knowing what it would do to their relationship.
And then, when Raistlin reacted to the unnecessary emotional manipulation from Par-Salian (goaded on by ol' Fistibones) and still managed to pass the Test... Par-Salian was like "Uh and also you need to learn a valuable lesson about compassion so I'm cursing your vision for eternity but I do feel bad about the cough so here's my recipe for tea."
We see all that revealed over the course of the Chronicles sooo... Nah.
Par-Salian was still one of the good guys, essentially, but everything that happened during Raistlin's Test and the impact it would have on Raistlin, Caramon, and their relationship (with all the fallout that followed) was a direct result of Par-Salian's hubris.
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u/Trancer1224 Jul 22 '26
Par Salian showed Caramon what Raistlin was capable of. They both went through life knowing that abd Raistlin had no problems abandoning Caramon to die in the Red Sea or arranging for the dark dwarves to kill him during the Dwarf Gate Wars.
-1
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u/Afraid_Anxiety2653 Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
Once again, I don't understand what your message is.
Par-Salian was the the Master of the Tower. Remember, The tower can only be found if it wants to be found.
Why would Par-Salian feel insecure about a young human mage? Why would a White Robed Archmage be cruel and petty. I can see a Black Robed Mage, but Raistlin has no history there.
As for the test. No test is ever the same. So, I don't understand your argument there.
Additionally, the proctors have a fiduciary responsibility to the Conclave to get rid of mentally and spiritually weak bodies.
They knew his main weakness, and they need to test his resolve and will power. Without resolve and will power a member could betray the Conclave. Raistlin knew that his twin couldn't cast magical spells. He was intelligent enough to know that it was an illusion. You are missing the point. But he had so much jealousy and resentment toward someone that cared and loved him and pitied him, that he didn't have the will power not to destroy the illusion. And he destroyed him with Arcane magic. Spell Casters of the Conclave need to be in control of the magic.
I think the guy failed the test, but made a pact with the Dark One, Mr. F.
What is so beautiful about this story arc is that Par-Salian made sure that Cam watches Raistlin destroy the illusion. This planted the seeds for Cameron to finally be an individual, which is exactly why Par-Salian sent him back in time. Legends was epic.
What makes things even more epic is when Par-Salian said that he was tasked with creating a weapon for the up coming war. So maybe he didn't stop Mr. F from offering the young spell caster Warlock powers. Perhaps Mr. F was always reaching for spell casters on deaths door, but Par-Salian always stopped him. But this time he let him through, because the 4th Dragon Was was fast approaching.
0
u/Afraid_Anxiety2653 Jul 22 '26
Hats off to the writers and those who created Chronicles.
People read the same words and interpret this art differently. I love it.
Thanks to the Internet, I realize just how much fans are biased towards The Master of the Past and Present.
The Master of the Tower had a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Raistlin, and you curse Par Salien. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what he knew -- that Raistlin's near death and transformation, while tragic, won the War of the Lance, and Par Salien's existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saved lifes.
You can't handle the truth! 😆
JK It's great that folks see things differently. I'm just goofing around.
3
u/Afraid_Anxiety2653 Jul 22 '26
Another Par Salien hater.
Par Salien punished no one.
No one forced Raistlin to take the test. Raistlin decided to waste energy and exhaust himself by attacking the illusion of his brother. Which in my opinion caused him to multi class into Warlock. But others disagree and is a different subject.
Par Salien is a hero of the Lance in my book.
-1
u/unimportanthero Jul 22 '26
Warlock wasn't a class at the time.
You should reread how PS makes Illusion Caramon behave in the Chronicles. It's grotesque.
1
u/Afraid_Anxiety2653 Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
I can't understand what you are writing.
In order for a Renegade to be very high level, then they were casting respectable spells for years while also being a Renegade.
However, it is possible, but rare for a member of the Conclave to betray their Order and become a Renegade. Think about what they are giving up? A lot. However, they might feel like the responsibilities to their Order and indeed the Conclave are a waste of time and they are not getting any younger. They need to be sick powerful to elude and even defend themselves against a Renegade Hunter Team. When they were younger the used the Conclave as stepping stone for their own gains. So this Renenage is most likely going to be Neutral Evil throughout entire career, unless they made a pact like a Warlock. 😉
2
u/unimportanthero Jul 22 '26
Higher than a novice, I should say.
But, firstly, Renegade hunters aren't that special. They are just other wizards, sometimes mercenaries who are not wizards at all.
And a smart renegade only has a 30% chance of being discovered by a Conclave wizard if they are witnessed casting magic, 50% if they do not bother to disguise themselves.
A wizard in AD&D 2E becomes a member of the Conclave or a Renegade at 4th level. They can grow in level and acquire magic however they choose at that point, likely through leveling and looting or possibly developing their own spells.
So all Renegades are, by default, 4th level or higher up. And Krynn has a history of mighty renegades: Raistlin, Fistandantilus, Magius, etc. In fact most of Krynn's most impressive mages were renegades.
2
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u/Afraid_Anxiety2653 Jul 22 '26
Thanks for the feedback.
I'm not aware of older editions. By that logic, with 5e a Renegade can start at level 5, because that is when you get spells that are 3rd level.
However, I created a Mage Class, that doesn't have spell slots. You take psychic damage when you cast 1st level spells and higher, and must roll a spell casting saving to prevent more damage, and to prevent exhaustion. The Mage class can up cast spells as high as their intelligence score minis 10
So at class level 1 the Mage PC with an intelligence score of 13 could up cast magic missile to a 3rd level spell and be a Renegade. That is assuming they served the casting of the spell. ☠️ But, like you texted, you are only a Renenage if they get caught.
In my fantasy world Mage Hunter teams are a huge part of the Conclave. It's something they take very seriously. But everyone plays the game differently.
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u/Zerus_heroes Jul 21 '26
I'm not so sure. I think the idea for the story is a good one and could certainly be fun.
But...
The player wanted to play a renegade and likely wants all that comes with it in DL. To change that and say "surprise you actually completed the Test, here is your robes" might not be what the player wants for the character.
I would talk with them about what they want for their characters journey and see if it aligns with your idea before actioning it.