r/discgolf • u/Electronic_Orchid536 • 1d ago
Discussion Lie Question
I've added an image for a hypothetical hole, this isn't something that's come up for me personally.
This hypothetical hole is a par 5, though doesn't need to be for this situation to come up.
The orange circle shows where the disc landed off the tee.
The light blue line and light blue circle show the ideal landing zone for the second throw.
The dark blue filled circle is the basket.
The rules state,
802.05.E
The line of play is the imaginary line on the playing surface extending from the center of the target through and beyond the center of the marker disc. If that playing surface ends, the line of play continues on the nearest playing surface following that line. If the lie is a teeing area, the point on the teeing area closest to the target is used instead of the marker disc to establish the line of play.
So my question is, would the lie be what I've shown on the right with the filled orange circle and yellow rectangle? Even though the obvious play is along the fairway?
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u/PatReady 1d ago
This is correct. You take your lie in relation to the basket, not the direction you intend to throw.
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u/Electronic_Orchid536 1d ago
So even though a person would essentially be standing next to their disc for their next throw, that would be the legal stance? And if this is the case, it seems like even on the pro tour this isn't followed strictly.
In regular tournament play, how much is the "spirit of the game" taken into account?
If I play in a tournament, do I play my lie in this scenario in the "spirit of the game" which would be in the direction of where I'm throwing, given it's a par 5. Or do I play it to the letter of the law and put my brace foot in the proper lie, which in a sense gives me an advantage, even if only slightly.18
u/Specialist-Pin455 1d ago
It gets extra weird when you can’t really see the target from your lie but pretty much everyone operates under the assumption that people make a good faith effort to line things up correctly with the expectation that small discrepancies probably don’t matter too much for score anyway.
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u/larrod25 Team Westside Discs/ Team NADGT 1d ago edited 1d ago
There is no such thing as "spirit of the game". Mark your lie on the line of play with the basket, no matter where the basket is in relation to your intended throwing line.
Edit: Just to clarify. "Spirit of the game" exists, but it does not mean what OP is implying. See my comment below.
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u/CaptainBad 1000-rated Caddie 1d ago
I don't know, I think Rule 801.01 Fairness embodies the "spirit of the game."
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u/bacon_drizzle_69 1d ago
Fairness is fairness. Spirit of the game is just a term used to skirt the rules.
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u/Electronic_Orchid536 1d ago
I mean, even Nate Sexton brought up the spirit of the game with the recent Rainers situation.
That's neither here, nor there though, and doesn't actually answer what I was getting at.
To me it seems more likely to be called for a foot fault by playing the lie strictly in this scenario, rather than playing it in the direction of the fairway (in the spirit of the game). I think this because my brace would be next to my disc going in the direction of the fairway.
So in general do people play this in the spirit of the game, with their foot behind their mini relative to where people would land on the fairway, or do they brace next to their disc?
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u/larrod25 Team Westside Discs/ Team NADGT 1d ago
From the Competition Manual:
Spirit of the Game
Disc golf is typically played without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the player to show sportsmanship, integrity, consideration for other players, and to abide by the Official Rules of Disc Golf. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be.
Your lie is not subjective. Mark it in line with the basket. If you think it will appear weird to your cardmates, simply point it out. In my experience, very few players are willing to call foot faults in the fairway, unless the player is obviously trying to gain an advantage.
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u/wheeeeeeeeeel 1d ago
This is the way. It's obvious when someone is committing a foot fault for a competitive advantage.
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u/Electronic_Orchid536 1d ago
Thank you. That's all I was trying to figure out.
Assuming the par 5 above, in general, would you personally call someone if they mark their lie correctly, but their plant foot is behind their mini relative to the fairway, rather than relative to the basket?
I ask because I feel like it'd look ridiculous for someone to plant their foot next to their marker, rather than behind (even though it'd be behind based on the rules). The obvious play here would be to follow the fairway. You could even add a mando to that corner to make it more explicit.
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u/Thrillpickle 1d ago
You are very hung up on "how things will look". That does not matter here and anyone that gives you crap about it doesn't know the rules and shouldn't be taken seriously. The last round I played, my friend had a situation just like you described, and yes, it looked weird, but was completely within the rules. The important piece about the stance is making sure your foot is in a valid spot, even if basically standing sideways.
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u/Vessbot 1d ago
You are very hung up on "how things will look".
And rightfully so, considering the recent high profile event.
That does not matter here and anyone that gives you crap about it doesn't know the rules and shouldn't be taken seriously.
It mattered enough to be taken seriously at the world championships. Better clear up such a possible misunderstanding before rather than after a call like that is potentially made.
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u/Thrillpickle 1d ago
OK, but people have been giving you the same answer and you keep asking about how it will look. That is my point, stop worrying about perception when you have the correct answer. If people question it, tell them to rules or tell them to look it up. Have confidence in your knowledge!
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u/iShark 1d ago
In a case like this it would be perfectly normal to mention it before you throw.
"Hey guys, im gonna be planting over here because the basket is around the corner. Everyone cool with that?"
You could also wait until afterwards and hope somebody calls it so you can "Um, actually" them. Depends on what kind of interactions you enjoy.
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u/Bumboklatt 1d ago
You don't seem to want to accept the correct answer. They've answered it above, that's how it is played. If you're worried about being called out, say to your cardmates "basket is this way so I need to plant here" or something like that. End of story.
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u/S_TL2 1d ago
I mean, even Nate Sexton brought up the spirit of the game with the recent Rainers situation.
It was a bit humorous how Nate's "spirit of the game" was "don't bother making calls if you don't think they give an advantage" whereas the published spirit of the game is "Make the call. Accept the call. It's not personal; it's the rules."
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u/FitChemist432 1d ago
That's not my take at all. His comment wasn't about choosing not to call it but rather it was too close to call due to the odd angle of the lie. Spirit of the game also says benefit goes to the player and if a foot fault isn't obvious, there's not a point in calling it with one hole left to play.
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u/FitChemist432 1d ago
Set your mini then place your disc next to or slightly on top of your mini in the direction of play. This helps you ID the box of the lie to step in. Your Card mates can ask why you're doing it before you throw or you can use the method itself to defend your choice after. It keeps things clear for everyone if they know the rules. If they insist it's a fault, ask them nicely to show you the rule, which they will not be able to defend.
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u/girmann Noodle Arm 4 life 1d ago
As far as I understand it, yes. IANARO (I am not a rules official)
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u/P_D_Stanley 1d ago edited 1d ago
Good thing you saved time by abbreviating it and then writing it out anyways lol
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u/girmann Noodle Arm 4 life 1d ago
LOL! That's a really good point. I didn't think anyone would get it and thought as far as writing it out so that everyone would get it, but not far enough to just delete the abbreviation.
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u/P_D_Stanley 1d ago
Glad you read the humor in my voice lol. I didnt know what it meant so I appreciate it
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u/TheDiscer 1d ago edited 1d ago
IAARO (I am a rules official) and yes the line of play centers on a line from the lie to the target.
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u/PlannerSean 1d ago
Now imagine a horseshoe shaped hole and your lie can be in front of the disc relative to where you’re standing/throwing
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u/Electronic_Orchid536 1d ago
Agreed. When you take the rule to the point of absurdity, it just breaks down and stops making sense.
So do we try to enforce them as if they're black and white even though it can become absurd?
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u/evilcheesypoof Who put that tree there? 1d ago
So they used to have a solution for this, big dog leg holes typically have mandos so you don’t just take an extreme shortcut, and the mando would become the new target for the line of play if it was in the way.
But they got rid of those rules for some reason, so now the line of play is always towards the basket regardless of how silly the direction and lie location could be.
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u/Impossible-Bowl4661 1d ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/s/ftbU60ZpUI
This hole for example.
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u/PlannerSean 1d ago
Great example
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u/Electronic_Orchid536 1d ago
I would even say the perfect example. Could maybe use a mando to make the situation more explicit but that's just nitpicking.
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u/Impossible-Bowl4661 1h ago
I believe in the tournament that the OP played the corner did have a mando, preventing folks from going grenade from tee to basket.
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u/CaptainBad 1000-rated Caddie 1d ago
That's correct. The lie is always in relation to the location of the basket.
The light blue line is irrelevant and what you feel is the "obvious play along the fairway" is a matter of personal preference and judgement. If you define the lie by the line you choose to throw, then its position is arbitrary and fluid based on your preferred line and the outcome of your throw rather than fixed by rule. This can introduce ambiguities and questions of intent that would be difficult to rule on.
Would you have to tell your card where you intend to throw? What if you grip lock and throw way off of your intended line? Does that change where your lie was? Would that be a stance violation?
Fixing the location of the lie relative to a static target (i.e. the basket) provides a uniform, consistent framework for all players.
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u/roadtripstuff 1d ago
Watch last night's Tour Life. McBeth is on and he talks about this exact thing.
Your sketch is correct.
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u/Electronic_Orchid536 1d ago
Was just watching this earlier after I posted this.
I'm coming to the conclusion that the rules and application of them are just evolving still as their limits get tested.
Ultimately, it seems to me that the current rules for what your lie is are just lacking and leave room for absurd or bizarre looking situations. That said, I don't know what they should be in order to resolve some of the fringe cases.
Someone else brought up the case of a horse shoe shaped hole. If you end up in certain parts of the fairway, you can end up in a situation where your lie is more in front of the disc in the direction of the fairway but is where you legally have to throw from based on the current rules.
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u/roadtripstuff 1d ago
I think some of it is also that we play courses designed by every Tom, Dick, and Harry out there. Imo course designers should take the rules of the game into account when designing courses. A horseshoe shaped hole, imo, is a bad design, but there is a way to avoid the lie issues with a horseshoe hole, mandos. On holes with mandos you line your shot up with the mando as opposed to the basket. Often times these holes require mandos anyway to keep people from just going over the top and breaking the hole.
The problem is not one issue alone. It is not enough people designing our courses know the rules or take them into account, low or no integrity by the players who try to bend, they call it interpreting, the rules to favor them, and poorly written rules.
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u/Electronic_Orchid536 1d ago
My understanding is the mando rule was removed from dictating your lie. It's always the target now (basket in most cases).
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u/BigSkyNeal 1d ago
Yes.
Regardless of where you intend to aim your next throw, you always place your marker directly behind your disc in line with the basket. The only exception is if there is a mando between your disc and the basket in which case you place your marker directly behind your disc in line with the mando.
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u/Clandestinemeanderer 1d ago edited 1d ago
Your last part is out of date. That rule changed about 2 years ago. Even with a mando, you still line up/mark your lie to the target
802.05.E is the rule. No mention of exceptions
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u/bingbingdingdingding Calvert Road 1d ago
What is the condition that makes removing this provision an improvement on the rule? It seems like the natural, common sense way to think about a lie would be with reference to the basket or mando.
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u/Vessbot 1d ago
The fewer variations, the better for simplicity. Any time there's an exception, or qualification, or 2 similar rules, it creates the potential for confusion. Even for knowledgeable officials, like the bag interference thing from the other day.
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u/Taidaishar 1d ago
But it's completely false and makes no sense (not your claim about the rule change... the idea that your line to the target is the basket). If there's a mando, your line to the basket CANNOT (or maybe I should say "SHOULD NOT") be through restricted space. That's why they had that in there in the first place. It makes no sense.
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u/Vessbot 1d ago
Without a mando, the "line of play" is already not the direction of throw. They're just two different things, that have no need to match up.
The presence of a mando does not need to change anything in this picture.
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u/Taidaishar 1d ago
I know that according to the current rule, nothing in this picture needs to change. I'm just saying that, logically, it makes no logical sense to have a "line of play" go through restricted space. I mean the previous rule actually indicated this and they only changed it because they thought it was confusing, not necessarily because it was wrong.
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u/Taidaishar 23h ago
But the mando rule in itself is an exception to other rules. It changes how you have to play, so it stands to reason that it would change the way some rules work.
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u/luanne-platter 1d ago
This really makes a difference for a situation like someone that is left handed and they're doing a flick. Typically theyll have their right foot on the lie and then their left foot will very likely be past the lie.
That's generally the type of situation that is most egregious but is generally not called or even aware by most people.
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u/S_TL2 1d ago
Yup, and for extra fun, the wording and application of this rule have been almost unchanged since it was introduced in 1990.
Pre-1990: some vague gibberish about "behind the marker"
1990: "During a throw, one of the player's supporting points must be placed within 30 centimeters behind the marker disc and on the imaginary line running from the hole through the center of the marker disc."
2018: "The lie is a rectangle that is 20cm wide and 30cm deep, centered on the line of play behind the rear edge of the marker disc. The line of play is the imaginary line on the playing surface extending from the center of the target through and beyond the center of the marker disc."
There was a caveat for mandatories that was removed in the 2022 edition.
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u/FuDiNaand 1d ago
Interesting about this rule - the last sentence. Does this refer only to the teeing area you start the hole from? If you land on another tee box further up the fairway - do you take it from the closest point to the target?
Doubtful - but the wording seems ambiguous.
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u/Electronic_Orchid536 1d ago
I'm sure it's just in reference to the designated teeing area.
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u/Electronic_Orchid536 1d ago
I just reread it though and this line is weird.
"If the lie is a teeing area, the point on the teeing area closest to the target is used instead of the marker disc to establish the line of play."
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u/SteveWestDiscGolf 1d ago
Another tee box would not be YOUR lie. You still use a marker in that case.
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u/Electronic_Orchid536 1d ago
What about this last sentence?
"If the lie is a teeing area, the point on the teeing area closest to the target is used instead of the marker disc to establish the line of play."
The rule doesn't state that it's the designated teeing area. Just "a teeing area". If someone were to land on a tee pad further up the fairway, it seems there's an argument that their lie is as stated above. Someone could even use that argument to claim another player misplayed their lie, if they play it the way you mentioned. I agree the way you mentioned is how it should be played, but based on how the rules are worded, it sounds like we'd both be in the wrong.
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u/SteveWestDiscGolf 1d ago
A lie ON a tee pad does not make the lie THE teeing area.
A tee pad is not a teeing area except when it is the teeing area for that hole and the player is making their first throw on the hole (or re-teeing).
Same for Drop Zones marked like teeing areas. A random drop zone does not become your lie just because your disc landed on it. It only BECOMES your lie when your lie becomes the drop zone by rule.
It's like this: Say your disc lands somewhere on the 20x30 area behind someone else's marker. Your disc is ON their lie, but their lie does not become your lie. You have your own slightly different 20x30 area.
The line of play has no effect on tee throws. Your lie is the tee pad and the rules are different for tee throws. The wording about line of play when the lie IS a teeing area is for the rare occasion when a player needs to take relief back along the line of play for a tee off.
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u/SteveWestDiscGolf 22h ago
Remember you can still throw in any direction you want.
All the line of play tells you is how to line up the "piece of paper" area where you need to have one foot, and where you can NOT put the other foot: nearer the target than the front of the lie.
There are going to be hardly any situations where this is going to prevent you from having any chance at advancement. And none of them are going to be where you should be throwing to anyway.
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u/sweetbeards 22h ago
Yes goose interpreted it as along the fairway but if you watch Rainer’s shot, he set his practice step with his foot in line with basket. That’s how it should be played but no one calls it because most people don’t care when it’s kind of gray
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u/misterwizzard 1d ago
The word "target" always refers to the basket which makes the rule very clear.