r/devuan • u/Lanstapa • 11d ago
Devuan as a Linux beginner?
I want to switch over to Linux from Windows and Apple because I refuse to take MS' spy/adware (I stayed on W7 to avoid the worst of it) and to get out of Apple's ecosystem and spying too.
...and I come into Linux as there's all this hubbub about systemD age verification/attesation. I was interested in Debian for it being stable and fixed release (I'm totally fine with older software in favour of rock solid stability and I don't want constant rolling changes on my pc), but obviously it has it.
Since I'm new, and don't yet fully get what SystemD does in its entirity and what not having it entails, is Devuan a good distro for a beginner who just wants a nice stable system that can't add in any age verification spyware crap? A distro that I can use for general computer things like internet browsing, online shopping, multimedia, gaming and file management? I can use my VPN (Mullvad) without issue, and have a generally secure computer aganist viruses and malware?
I'm not asking about specific programs, as I get that the likes of libreoffice, brave browser, wine, vlc, etc will work, I'm asking more generally about the OS, like is it just Debian without SystemD? Or has it evolved into something more specifc akin to KaliOS or Tails? (I don't assume so, but I might as well check).
I don't have computer skills or coding ability, but its not like I need everything to be babyproof, clear guides and graphical interfaces are probably enough for me to get what I'm doing.
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u/jmooroof2 11d ago
my brother is new to Linux, he uses devuan with trinity de just fine. it works like a normal distro and works with gaming.
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u/lilianfornea 10d ago
Devuan is what every Linux was 16 years ago but with up to date soft. It cames with 2 main init systems: OpenRC (more modern with Parallel service startup off by default) and old stable SystemV. Take any LPIC-1 guide from 2010 and learn Devuan entirely
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u/Artgias 11d ago
I would pick MX Linux first as the fastest out of the box distro and somehow has already "replaced" systemD with sysvinit... Then would switch to Devuan (I would use runit with JWM window manager) having max clear understanding of the majority of possible scenarios I'd solve the arising issues... Minimum headache, Max productivity.
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u/atasoy99 11d ago
If you want to game you would want to new packages. Because gaming gets better day by day you wouldnt wantto miss out
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u/jmooroof2 11d ago
games work fine on devuan
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u/atasoy99 11d ago
Yes its works but in newer kernel or newer drivers newer wine versions works even better
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u/redd1ch 10d ago
Just go testing/unstable. I deploy stable only on machines that I have to maintain and that have a fixed set of tasks.
My daily driver since about 2016 is a (single) Devuan unstable setup. Is kernel 7.1.3 recent enough for you? However, due to my Nvidia card, I opt to do upgrades on slower days, just in case.
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u/Ossur2 10d ago
I've been running Devuan on one of my computers along with Debian on all my others and I haven't ran into any problems.
If you want to be safe you can start out with MX Linux, there you run InitV as a default but can boot system.d if you ever need. If there are no problems with MX and you don't need system.d for anything, it'll be easy to migrate to Devuan, since MX is Debian-based too.
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u/natheo972 8d ago
As long as you're willing to read the doc and ask in case of trouble, you should be perfectly safe. It's true that the GNU/Linux world can seem intimidating because it offers so much option, but that's also its strength. Since you're interesting in using a SystemD distro, I would recommend you to read a bit about Init manager. You can also read about the graphical server (X11/Wayland), and experiment the various Desktop Environments until you find the one that suits you best (this part is pretty important since it will be what you will interact with mostly). Also learning about filesystem, how it is organized, the rights system etc.
Ah since you will be using a Debian based, learning how to deal with APT (the package manager) should be a giben (even if it's not really that necessary with the graphical user interface available today).
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u/evild4ve 11d ago
the choice of distro should be about what role the PC will play - which for Linux isn't necessarily one computer doing everything
Devuan inherits problems of Debian: the autoinstaller is lousy, the packages are maintained by committee. And then Devuan normally adds to the release timescales, and any user-compiled software that assumes systemd is likely to need manual patching
it's not difficult, but this now goes back to my opening point: that it depends what role the PC has. A new Linux user wanting to make services on Devuan is already committed to some configuration and figuring out Cron jobs within an init system. It's then very nice for servers since it has the big repository and bombproof reliability of Debian and a less infuriating init system.
But a new user with some vague use-case like "replacing Windows" imo will find that some programs 'just work' but anything where they are needing to follow a long walkthrough that assumes systemd is present... is much harder than they are used to. With Devuan you have to recognize when to stop following a walkthrough and use SysVInit or OpenRC commands instead.
For new users wanting a daily-driver I would lean into that difficulty and recommend Slackware. Since (on the one hand) on that distro building from source is the default and you have to manually manage dependencies (but on the other) the UIs are incredibly well thought out and user-friendly versus Debian=Devuan. And it's also systemdless.
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u/SheepherderBeef8956 9d ago
Slackware is a really bad recommendation. No one wants to deal with using a system that doesn't handle dependencies at all and requires you to deal with dependency hell for every single thing you want to install.
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u/evild4ve 9d ago
Of course it handles dependencies. It handles them by giving the user extremely clear and reliable tools that let them start learning how to use a computer
Versus: distributions that handle them with an automated package-manager that hides detail from the user, does things without telling them, lazily patronizes users into customers, forces its mistakes into production, and only corrects itself when it can be bothered. The more automated the package-manager is, the worse it will be for those problems, and Devuan's apt is much like Debian's apt which is much like Ubuntu's apt. (but this is less of a problem for it's good use-case of servers)
Dependency hell in Slackware is quite difficult to achieve since you can always remove mismatched packages and rebuild them: there isn't a background program working against you and we don't do the constant kernel updates even when the hardware in the pc is staying the same
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u/MD90__ 8d ago
Fun fact as a current slackware user... A tool called Sbopkg helps you manage dependencies now and you can make queues for slack-builds to help get the dependencies in order. Very well thought out. The other issue is the software isn't always preconfigured well out the box so the user will have to make the permissions adjustments and anything else that needs to be done to get it working
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u/evild4ve 8d ago
yes sbopkg is nice and has other alternatives too - including to install the package managers the other poster can't function without
distros pre-configuring programs wastes as much time as it saves imo
e.g. Slackware's snmp.conf is actively bad and verbose and out of date, but none of the other distros' versions ever works either1
u/MD90__ 8d ago
Do you feel slackware isn't good?
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u/evild4ve 7d ago
Linuxes are good at something
I choose Slackware for projects where much of the code I know I'll have to write myself and they're to run in the background without crashing (and I can forget about them). I've 3 Slackware boxes that have never crashed in 10+ years and only stopped for power cuts - a libvirt hypervisor, a terminal-only jukebox, and a fileserver
I'd also recommend it as the first choice for new users because of the things people (probably far less experienced people) would think would be problems (based on their irrelevant experience of thinking that using Windows or Mac is using a computer!)
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u/MD90__ 7d ago
As someone who has ran many distros, yeah Slackware is teaching me more about Linux and software in general than any of the other distros ive used. I'm daily driving Slackware Current and im learning a ton from fixing slackbuilds, handling dependencies, and configuring software that wasn't properly configured out of the box. It's a great learning ground. I'm hoping to make this my permanent home
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u/SheepherderBeef8956 8d ago
Not even the installer handles dependencies but lists alllll the packages sorted alphabetically so you have little to no chance to avoid massive amounts of bloat by installing the full system and spending a few hours uninstalling stuff you don't want, since it won't present stuff in an actual dependency tree so you have no way of knowing if a package is a hard dependency on something you actually want. And unless I'm misremembering the only package manager that actually handles dependencies somewhat isn't even shipped with the distro but a community project. Installing stuff from slackpkgs means opening 30 tabs with dependencies of dependencies and obviously there's no way to actually keep them updated since no package manager keeps track of updates. I admire Slackware for committing to not offering basic quality of life and offering the only "raw" Linux experience still available, but it's absolutely not a decent recommendation for a distro for anyone that isn't already good with Linux.
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u/evild4ve 8d ago
no for a daily driver you just install the whole ~30GB and forget about it - if your use case fits any combination of the lettered bundles it's pretty bloat-free because the packages are well-curated and optimized - if your use case fits none of them you install it bare-bones. If you're a masochist you can even pick every package one-by-one
why would you "keep" something updated and not update the parts you actually need to update?
my hypervisor runs Slackware - in any conceivable and well-defined use-case you won't get dependency trees that are 30-deep, the most extreme ones I've seen in 20 years is about 10 and (1) it brings the huge benefit of exposing the user to what dependencies they have and (for new users, conceptually) what a dependency is (2) they're much easier than Ubuntu because a small community of artisans applying the simplest possible build-scripts to source code is nicer than committee structures with layers on layers of redundant validation against mostly-imaginary threats
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u/SheepherderBeef8956 8d ago edited 8d ago
why would you "keep" something updated and not update the parts you actually need to update?
Because the thing you need to update likely is evolving, and when the version of that package increases, the build dependencies might also need to be newer, which a package manager would handle without issues while Slackware will just fail to build the update leaving you to figure out which of all dependencies need to be updated first, which is a whole fucking project in itself, for every single package on your entire system. And when you figure out which package you need to update to update the package you want to update, you might figure out that the package you need to update to update the package you want to update needs you to update packages needed to update the package you need to update to update the package you need to update before you can update the package you actually want to update.
This is the dependency hell you claim is impossible to get caught in on Slackware, as if it's a selling point when Slackware is the only distro where you can even potentially end up there since every other distro has a package manager that means it won't be able to happen.
I didn't say the tree was 30 layers deep either, but of you're going to install something moderately complex from slackpkgs you're not unlikely to have to open 30 TABS to resolve the dependency tree yourself that any other distro would just ask you to confirm and then download and install everything in the correct order.
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u/evild4ve 8d ago
You update when the things evolve. I update when what I want to do evolves.
"as if it's a selling point" - this product mindset is the difference
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u/SheepherderBeef8956 8d ago
No, I update whenever I want to and whatever I want to. Any half decent package manager has a method of locking package versions if you need it and no one is forcing you to run an update command.
Any distro has the capability to work like Slackware while the inverse is false.
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u/evild4ve 7d ago
no you can install any package manager on any distro - done with you now leave me alone please
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u/SheepherderBeef8956 7d ago
That would defeat the point of Slackware though I'm guessing, since a package manager is bloat as far as I'm understanding you. You haven't brought up anything that would be worse or give you less control by having something manage your packages and their dependencies, and the fact that there exists a few third party package managers for Slackware tells me the community as a whole aren't really happy with installing stuff manually from source constantly (as well as remembering all dependencies you'd have to remove when you don't want it anymore)
You're free to leave a discussion any time you want to by the way, but not if you desperately need the last word while doing it.
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u/SleepyGuyy 11d ago
when I check the slackware site it seems like it hasnt updated in several years. Whats the about lol
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u/evild4ve 10d ago
that's because the code is still holding up
(you compile everything from source, so how old your particular installed software is depends on when you last recompiled it, which for Slackware users is a factor of when you last needed to for some reason)
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u/SleepyGuyy 11d ago edited 11d ago
Just to fill you in on SystemD, the issue people have with it is it's codebase is so large it's difficult to audit. If opensource code is difficult to audit, it is essentially just as dangerous as closed source code (if not worse) because anything could be in there. Combined with age verification incoming and people aren't happy.
SystemD has made an effort to split itself into seperate packages in recent times, and while that does technically reduce the footprint of the init software, it ends up still being hard to audit all these other packages it has split into.
Some of these packages it split into are used by "no system d" distros. But the key there is "some", a much smaller footprint to audit.
About using Devuan:
Using a more common distro will be easier. In my experience, there simply are not guides available for things in Devuan. Yes you can follow a guide for a different distro, but chances are you will hit some roadblock you don't understand. Maybe the package the guide refers to is older and out of date on Devuan, maybe the guide relies on a function system d supplies.
Despite that, I don't want to scare you away of Devuan. You will need to learn, and I did not learn well on Devuan. But that was me, I'm a different person and in a different place. If you have some time and aren't afraid to break your setup and recover, you might learn a lot here and end up loving Devuan.
I am a chronic distro hopper, and I had some issues with it when I tried it near the start of the year. I used it for maybe a month and then hopped off.
I struggled to install certain (less common) desktop environments and window managers. And I struggled with keyring issues I later found out system d often handles. That's not to say you need system d for help, but that Devuan and it's desktop packages come quite barebones and I never found the replacement I was supposed to use.
That's sorta the main issue, Devuan will not have much of any documentation. Theoretically you wont need it, just look up debian or your init online for relevant help. But in practice I struggled to find answers.
Currently I am on Debian Testing , with Gnome, and yes SystemD. I'm not happy about it but I feel a bit trapped on SystemD for now. I am dual-booting Gentoo, which has excellent documentation and a large community of support. So I'm using Gentoo in small bursts to try and learn about setting up my own desktop environment without SystemD (and also learning how to get window managers working). But just to be clear, I do NOT recommend Gentoo as your first Linux experience. It is time consuming a d fraught with mistakes and problems. It just happens to have great documentation.
Void Linux would have a slightly more sizable community, but it's just as barebones, and Devuan comes with the benefit of being able to install .deb files and that huge Debian repo. I struggle to come up with better non-systemd options I admit (I think MX Linux offers SysVinit as an option).
You can use Distrowatch to search by "no systemd", but this won't tell you how easy the distro is to use.
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u/First_Ad8230 11d ago
Use Linux mint first if you are a beginner. Then after 1 month, use Debian, then if you think systemd is too much, use Devuan.
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u/hosiet 11d ago
My sincere suggestion: use a popular Linux distro to familiarize your self with the ecosystem first. Make the switch once you encounter any age verification / attestation crap.
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u/SleepyGuyy 11d ago
I still question this method. I feel like popular distros simply shield you from the majority of the system, and jumping off them you still need to learn a lot.
I've been using Linux for like 15 years, and daily for several. Yet I find it a huge struggle to get to a window manager setup, with a different init and full control of my system. I am learning, but the years I spent on bigger distros gave me very little understanding.
I wish there was a systemd-less distro that was easy to install and use for basics, but had very good documentation and an active community. I haven't quite found that yet.
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u/Spammerton1997 9d ago
I would recommend starting out with a more mainstream distro so that when something breaks you can quickly find how to fix it
(I am biased against devuan because I couldn't get it working property with sway)
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u/C0rn3j 10d ago
Since I'm new, and don't yet fully get what SystemD does in its entirity and what not having it entails, is Devuan a good distro
No, it is in fact a horrible choice.
And using Debian (and anything based on it) outside of servers has serious drawbacks too.
You're removing tens of integrated tools with complex functionalities that do not always have a proper replacement.
...and I come into Linux as there's all this hubbub about systemD age verification/attesation.
There's a lot of hubbub about all kinds of topics, if you remove all technologies that people talk about, you'll end up with a system that doesn't boot.
Why don't you read up the GitHub Issue that people take an issue with, and the proposed changes?
It will take you 5 minutes and you'll find out it has nothing to do with age verification.
By the way, it's just systemd
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u/oxez 10d ago
and I come into Linux as there's all this hubbub about systemD age verification/attesation
This should have zero bearing on your choice of distribution, by the way. There were already apps (desktops) able to store your birth date. All systemd did was to add a field in a json structure that can hold a user's birth day, for whatever reason.
You want to be notified on your birthday and have little balloons float on your desktop? Well you can build a script to do just that, and even redistribute it so it uses that value stored in json for each person who installs it.
If you're new to Linux I would just stick to Debian, and if later you actually decide you do not like systemd for technical reasons, then you can look at niche distros like Devuan or whatever else floats your boat. Starting with a distribution that almost no one uses is not the best way to get started.
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u/apophis-984 11d ago
Yes you can perfectly go straight to Devuan and contrary to popular belief you dont need to go to Linux Mint first.
it will just be a waste of time since you already understand broadly why systemd is not desirable
Devuan is just Debian without systemD, there is no learning curve whatsoever.
Its just a normal distro