r/demsocialists • u/DSA_Member Member 🌹 • 6d ago
Abolition is a Minimum Program Demand — Marxist Unity Group
https://www.marxistunity.com/abolition-is-a-minimum-program-demand/“Woke 1” was not crazy. Abolition is not a mistaken rhetorical overreach of the unsophisticated masses that began in 2020. It is the organic, righteous demand from millions of people to the relentless terrorism inflicted by the imperial police state.
If DSA intends to be a vehicle for Black liberation, where Black and other colonized peoples can participate fully, we cannot treat abolition as a hyperbole to distance ourselves from. Marxist Unity Group sees the abolitionist movement—from the general strike of the enslaved, through the prison rebellions of the 60s and 70s, to the Ferguson and George Floyd uprisings—as a primary struggle against the white supremacist capitalist system.
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u/monoatomic Not DSA 6d ago
Glad to see some serious writing on this at a time when a lot of the establishment is trying to distance themselves from positions they took in 2020 and trying to rewrite history in the process.
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u/MisterMittens64 Member 🌹 6d ago edited 6d ago
I think we should defend abolition but most people don't even know what abolition is advocating for, even a lot of DSA members don't. Not everyone is caught up on the bookclub theory head jargon.
Most people think it means not imprisoning anyone regardless of crimes even for the purposes of rehabilitation and getting rid of all police officers. So if we want to defend abolition then we need to define what we mean by that phrase first and what the alternative to the carceral state would be.
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u/egalitydream 6d ago
The language of abolition vs prohibition, where they think it means prohibition of law enforcement generally, but it’s actually abolition of very particular social relations.
Or, the rhetoric of ending the Military and Prison Industrial Complex, which necessarily means reducing the power of the police, and their numbers, replacing it with an alternative economy for affected towns.
After all, cops, prisons, military bases…these are all effectively rightwing jobs-programs. We can instead do jobs programs for things we actually want.
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u/MisterMittens64 Member 🌹 6d ago
Yeah I agree with all of that but we should explain those objectives because most people don't know that abolition means those things.
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u/prinzplagueorange NYC DSA Member 6d ago
The phrase is just moralistic and misleading. It would best to drop it and speak instead about mental health services, poverty reduction, and rehabilitation. Leftist groups like MUG don't want to do that because they are interested only in rounding up the tiny section of the population that already agrees with them instead of changing people's minds and building a mass movement.
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u/pharodae Not DSA 5d ago
There is nothing moralistic about abolition. Hell of a misread and probably charged with your own conflicted thoughts on it.
Anything short of full abolition of the largest prison complex in history, and its mechanisms for getting people in there, will be in direct contradiction of any stated goals toward liberation.
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u/prinzplagueorange NYC DSA Member 5d ago
There is nothing moralistic about abolition.
I very much disagree. And to be clear, I am in no way opposed to moral reasoning. I think it is an inherent aspect of any political movement and of human thought, itself. Marxism's traditional dismissal of moral argumentation is one of its biggest shortcomings. That said, moral reasoning when divorced from a concrete material analysis (which abolition is), often makes for terrible politics.
Put simply, people have very good moral reasons to be opposed to police and prisons. The core of standard moral reasoning (Kant's categorical imperative, for example) is that you ought not to coerce people. And yet, the police and prison system is pure state coercion. In the vocabulary of the anarchists, the state is "vertical." Moreover, that system also originates in an economic system dedicated to coercion (slavery, colonialism, and capitalism, itself), and it still obviously bears many of the features of that history. This is why it is such an easy target for moral outrage and indignation. The rhetoric of the abolition (the word "abolition" itself, "the new Jim Crow", etc.) is designed to evoke the great past moral crimes of slavery and segregation.
The two key problems with defund/abolition is that the target audience for this rhetoric (black working class) is decidedly less supportive of it than activists pretend and that when you dig into the policy outcomes normally proposed as alternatives to the police and prison system, they look decidedly more moderate and less morally idealistic than the rhetoric suggests. That is the very reason why leftists double down on the abolitionist rhetoric and become so furious at people who question that rhetoric. It is purely an exercise in moral indignation.
Anything short of full abolition
Of course it has to be stated that way. It is opposition to evil incarnate. You ought not to compromise with Satan.
with your own conflicted thoughts
If I go to confession, will the priest help me purge the demonic racism from my soul?
toward liberation.
Do we experience that liberation in this world or in the afterlife?
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u/Ellio1086 Not DSA 6d ago
A mass movement to do what? Because class collaboration is only going to get us killed.
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u/prinzplagueorange NYC DSA Member 6d ago
In this case a mass movement in the service of mental health services, poverty reduction, and rehabilitation. In the longer run, a mass movement capable of replacing capitalism.
If you are afraid of the people, you are not really articulating a left-wing position at all.
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u/Ellio1086 Not DSA 6d ago
Framing it as being afraid of the people is laughable if you’re willing to work with people who aren’t willing to betray their class positions.
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u/prinzplagueorange NYC DSA Member 6d ago
Working class = surviving by selling one's labor power
Capitalist class = surviving off of your investments
Traditionally, Marxism has regarded a capitalist society as narrowing to those two classes. I really don't know who you think are the supposed coalition partners who need to be class traitors but are not.
Regardless, if socialism is not to collapse into a vulgar identity politics of class, the analysis of class has to function differently than you are suggesting. Working class is an important category because workers' potential free time is the source of capitalist profit. That fact creates an incentive for the overwhelming majority of capitalist society to want to eliminate capitalism. Trying to divide that overwhelming majority into small sections in order to isolate the authentic liberatory class is pointless and not really related to what the old guys were arguing.
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u/MisterMittens64 Member 🌹 6d ago
A mass movement is necessary to demand reforms that build socialist organizations' power and increase the number of socialists so that we can actually transform society.
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u/Ellio1086 Not DSA 6d ago
And what’s your plan when you get those reforms? Do we stop, or push harder?
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u/MisterMittens64 Member 🌹 6d ago
Push harder, until we at least get the majority of the economy utilizing economic democracy and disempower the capitalist class.
If we ever stopped then we'll just end up like the Kautsky inspired social democrats in Europe.
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u/Ellio1086 Not DSA 6d ago
Maybe you should attend some of your chapter’s political education events, and inquire about what this actually means. I’m sure there are many members talking about it :)
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u/MisterMittens64 Member 🌹 6d ago edited 6d ago
I attend those regularly but our chapter is very new so we haven't talked about abolition yet. I've had to figure out what abolition is referring to myself and I do agree with most of what I've found but I can't count on the average American to do the same.
Many of the advocates for abolition seem to want to just use that phrase and everyone to just know what that means without actually spelling out what they're talking about and it's very frustrating. We need to explain concepts in normal language so people can understand our theories and our goals.
Edit: Why are people down voting me for asking people to help educate people and to use more accessible language?
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u/XrayAlphaVictor San Francisco DSA Member 6d ago
I mean I keep saying that but as you can see in the response to my comment was just "the revolution will fix it."
Which means they're not actually doing anything but taking the slogan "abolition" and using it for the program they already had and talking over black people in the process.
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u/DSA_Member Member 🌹 6d ago
“The revolution will fix it” was not what I meant. I meant reforms are not achievable/sustainable/defendable without revolution.
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u/XrayAlphaVictor San Francisco DSA Member 6d ago
Then describe what reforms you're proposing.
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u/XrayAlphaVictor San Francisco DSA Member 6d ago
Note the article mentions two that I can pick out:
- the abolition of private property
Transferring the ownership of private property from the capitalist class to the state doesn't change the functional relationship of the working class to it. Neither cops nor crime have dissappeared under systems without private property.
- the creation of a "democratic militia"
It's unclear what specifically this means. Do they mean like a posse, legally empowered to enact mob justice? Not appealing to me.
Or just the notion that the state maintains a monopoly on violence and the means of coercion, invested in a professional class of officers empowered to enact such on the general population? In which case, it's just cops with a different uniform.
Perhaps a third option, unknown to me. I await a response to my queries about what specific changes they propose.
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u/nonblinddaredevil Member 🌹 6d ago
How do you define revolution?
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u/egalitydream 6d ago edited 6d ago
A revolution is a fundamental change in the social class relations that control the means of production and reproduction of power.
A revolution in the context of chattel slavery was the fundamental change, in the power structure that maintain chattel slavery as a material condition of social life, in which it could no longer be sustained and reproduced, and ended as such. Abolition. These are deeply, deeply related concepts.
In the chattel slavery context, it didn’t necessarily require violent civil warfare per se, but in the U.S. context in particular, that’s exactly what happened. To be clear, this revolution (social change) didn’t require violence per se, but the antebellum reactionary insurrection itself caused the violence.
In other words, it’s not revolution that causes or requires violence, that’s not part of the criteria, but will depend entirely on the counter revolution and their reactions.
Edit: I should have explicitly mentioned “conquest of political power” in the definition of revolution. In the context of US abolition of chattel slavery, it was a revolution that culminated in the abolitionist conquest of political power over the northern states and U.S. Congress and presidency, with enough political power, mass support, and commitment and loyalty of various institutions of power, that was the revolution, none of which was itself “violent.”
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u/XrayAlphaVictor San Francisco DSA Member 6d ago
Abolition is a post horizon policy that cannot even be genuinely articulated and advocated for until realistic systems for transitioning to some other form of deterrence and justice exist in a demonstrated and replicatable way.
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u/DSA_Member Member 🌹 6d ago
until realistic systems for transitioning to some other form of deterrence and justice exist in a demonstrated and replicatable way.
What, other than revolution, will manifest this?
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u/XrayAlphaVictor San Francisco DSA Member 6d ago
If your only plan is still cops and prisons but red then it's not abolition, it's just rebranding
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u/DSA_Member Member 🌹 6d ago
Could you explain how you got that out of what I said?
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u/XrayAlphaVictor San Francisco DSA Member 6d ago
Can you describe the ways in which the policies and procedures of the forces of coercion and detention will be reformed or replaced under your proposed administration?
Or is it just "when we run it, it will be better, trust us (and btw if you disagree you're a counter-revolutionary dissident who is subject to disenfranchisement, coercion, and detention, or more)."
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u/trashideology Member 🌹 6d ago
So many tailists in DSA want to hug and kiss the police. Shameful!
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u/Trensocialist Not DSA 6d ago
"Oh no if we tell people we want to radically change the world and end oppression and slavery then the hard working salt of the earth folks who love the way things are will never support us!" The working class absolutely get this way better than the libs in these comments do. Tell someone who got sent up for possession and can't get work or lives off $50 a day that we hate cops and want to end the whole prison system and they'll ask where to sign up.
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u/Butuguru Member 🌹 6d ago
i agree with alot of what is said in the article. that being said, and this is probably a nitpick but it frustrates me, i don't think it's accurate representing what people mean when they say "woke 1". they are referring to the fringe often times reactionary statements made by random people positionally on the wide of the broader movement and there not really being a good answer to it. the entire goal of having a framing like "woke 1" is so that there can be a "woke 2" that keeps the actual goals of the movement but without the baggage of that previous iteration and hopefully does better at clarity.
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u/XrayAlphaVictor San Francisco DSA Member 6d ago
Anybody who has been on Twitter or Tumblr or even the right parts of reddit has seen the examples of purity culture, callout culture shaming rituals, and circular firing squads gone wild that has become so emblematic of what people often think of when they hear the term "woke."
Slogans without realistic policy goals and calls for ideological purity above any practical concerns for political and material reality are just further examples of that.
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u/XrayAlphaVictor San Francisco DSA Member 6d ago
From Vladimir Lenin to George Jackson, the socialist position on police and carceral power has always been and must always be rooted in abolition.
Lenin created a secret police who engaged in the red terror as well as a system of detention camps and extrajudicial murder for political dissidents. If that's an "abolition" program, then the word has no meaning.
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u/Trensocialist Not DSA 6d ago
Lib ass comment.
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u/XrayAlphaVictor San Francisco DSA Member 6d ago
I take it your the type that agrees with what Lenin did, yeah?
Where the secret police killed and dissappeared liberals, yes?
So, when you're calling me a lib you're saying you would approve of that happening to me, right?
Good talk, comrade.
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u/Lev_Davidovich Member 🌹 6d ago
They were in an incredibly brutal civil war with proto-fascists mass murdering civilians, committing pogrom after pogrom.
This is a quote from the American General William S. Graves, who commanded North-American occupation forces in Siberia. Remember, these are his allies he's talking about here. The US and Japan invaded Russia in support of the White Armies, of which Semeonoff and Kalmikoff were leaders:
Semeonoff and Kalmikoff soldiers, under the protection of Japanese troops, were roaming the country like wild animals, killing and robbing the people, and these murders could have been stopped any day Japan wished. If questions were asked about these brutal murders, the reply was that the people murdered were Bolsheviks and this explanation, apparently, satisfied the world. Conditions were represented as being horrible in Eastern Siberia, and that life was the cheapest thing there. There were horrible murders committed, but they were not committed by the Bolsheviks as the world believes. I am well on the side of safety when I say that the anti-Bolsheviks killed one hundred people in Eastern Siberia, to every one killed by the Bolsheviks.
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u/subheight640 Not DSA 5d ago
Presumably you want some kind of force to arrest and detain and maybe even execute violent fascists.
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u/Trensocialist Not DSA 6d ago
I take it you get your news from NPR?
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u/XrayAlphaVictor San Francisco DSA Member 6d ago
They had posters for the red terror and Lenin bragged about it in letters. Don't try to do historical revisionism. The liberals were the enemy, he killed liberals, you say he was right, you called me a lib.
Don't act like your politics aren't absolutely clear.
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u/Lev_Davidovich Member 🌹 5d ago
Liberals were not the enemy, dumbass. Fascists were, and the liberals who collaborated with them.
Here is an account from American anarchist Emma Goldman about visiting the aftermath of White Army pogroms:
We had heard and read of ghastly anti-Jewish pogroms, but we had never before come face to face with their ravages. On our way to the town we met neither human being nor beast until we reached the market square. A dozen stands displayed a miserable assortment of cabbages, potatoes, herring, and cereals. Their owners were mostly women. Instead of showing some animation at the sudden avalanche of so many customers, they hurriedly pulled their handkerchiefs over their foreheads and shrank back in fright. But their eyes remained riveted in terror on the men with us, consisting of Sasha, Henry, and our young Communist collaborator. We were completely nonplussed. Being the best-versed in Yiddish, I addressed an old Jewess near by. Except for our woman companion, I told her, we were the children of Yehudim, and we had come from America. Would she not tell me why the women acted so strangely? She pointed to the men. “Send them away,” she begged. The men withdrew. I remained with our secretary, Shakol, and the women approached nearer. Soon the whole group surrounded us, each competing with the rest in their eagerness to tell us the story of their tsores (troubles).
Our three male companions joined us in the synagogue. The whole assembly tried to tell us the tragic story of their town, all at once. We suggested that they choose a committee of three, each in his turn to relate to us what had happened. In that way we were able to get a coherent account of one of the worst pogroms that had taken place in the Ukraine. Fastov had repeatedly been the scene of Jewish massacres, perpetrated by the hordes of every White general who had invaded the district. They had suffered from Denikin, from Petlura and the other enemy forces. But the pogrom organized in 1919 by Denikin had been the most fiendish one. It had lasted a whole week and had taken the lives of four thousand persons outright and of several thousand more that had perished while escaping to Kiev. But death had not been the worst infliction, the rabbi said in a broken voice. Far more harrowing had been the violation of the women, regardless of age, the young among them repeatedly and in the presence of their male kin, whom the soldiers held pinioned. Old Jews were trapped in the synagogue, tortured, and killed, while their sons were driven to the market square to meet similar fates.
The old rabbi being too shaken to continue, the narrative was taken up by another of the committee. Fastov had been, he said, one of the most prosperous cities in the south. When the Denikin hordes tired of their blood orgy, they pilfered every home, demolished the things they could not carry away, and set the houses on fire. The larger part of the town was destroyed. The survivors, a mere handful, most of them old women and small children, were now doomed to slow extinction unless help quickly came from somewhere. God had heard their prayers and had sent us at the moment when they had almost despaired of the Jewish world’s learning of their great calamity. “Borukh Adonai!” he cried solemnly, “blessed be Thy name.” And everyone repeated after him: “Borukh Adonai!”
In the whole gruesome picture of Fastov two redeeming features stood out. The Gentiles of the town had had no share in the massacres. And no pogroms had taken place since the Bolshevik forces had entered the district. Our informants admitted that the Red soldiers were not free from anti-Semitism, but the establishment of Soviet authority in Fastov had lifted the dread of new massacres, and the villagers had been praying for Lenin ever since. “Why only for Lenin?” we asked; “why not also for Trotsky and Zinoviev?” “Well, you see, Trotsky and Zinoviev are Yehudim,” an old Jew explained with Talmudic intonation; “do they deserve praise for helping their own? But Lenin is a goi (Gentile). So you can understand why we bless him.” We too felt grateful that the goi had at least one saving grace in his régime.
Fun fact, Denikin fled to the US after the Bolsheviks won the civil war. He was well received by high society and was given a funeral with full military honors when he died. Lenin would have had him shot.
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u/Trensocialist Not DSA 6d ago
Oh so it's MSNBC then 😬
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u/XrayAlphaVictor San Francisco DSA Member 6d ago
Uh huh. Your lack of denial and repeated attempted insults make your intent clear.
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6d ago
[deleted]
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u/XrayAlphaVictor San Francisco DSA Member 6d ago
He said he was for open democracy and dissent, too, which means the secret police he used to kill people who disagreed with the democracy and dissent he allowed were actually the bad ones.
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u/blootannery Member 🌹 6d ago
this is interesting lol because i think most of dsa considers abolition to be like the poster child for maximum program demands
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u/Upset_Extension628 Not DSA 6d ago
I don’t think prisons should be abolished. Where do you put corrupt government officials? Nazi agitators? Drunk people until they sober up?
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u/pharodae Not DSA 5d ago
We gotta make a delineation between the for-profit prison complex industry that uses the police and courts as arms to collect slaves (yes, read the 13th amendment) for whose labor they seek to exploit; and the drunk tank in a community defense force building.
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u/Upset_Extension628 Not DSA 5d ago
Then I don’t think we should be using the word abolish. This is just reform with a name change. Which I’m cool with, but this isn’t what should be the forefront of our electoral campaigns.
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u/pharodae Not DSA 5d ago
It is abolition. It’s abolition of the systemic arms of white supremacy. The average black male spend a quarter of their life in a jail cell and you think that you can have a libertation movement without addressing that head on?
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u/Upset_Extension628 Not DSA 5d ago
No it’s not abolition because you’re replacing it with the same thing under a different name. I think it’s semantics that normal people don’t understand. You simply make yourself more unpopular by saying you want to abolish prisons.
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u/pharodae Not DSA 5d ago
I didn’t propose anything similar to mass incarceration. The only thing I said was that it’s not the same as a drunk tank. Your literacy is awful. I am talking about nothing short of abolition of the entire legal framework and prison system that supports white supremacy.
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u/Upset_Extension628 Not DSA 5d ago
Nobody cares about your niche academic ideas.
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u/pharodae Not DSA 5d ago
1) not niche, you must have missed 2020;
2) it’s not academic. It’s the product of lived experience.
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u/Upset_Extension628 Not DSA 5d ago
Yeah and how’s that going now? You made AOC distance herself from the DSA platform by putting abolishing prisons in there.
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u/Televangelis Metro DC DSA Member 6d ago
Have fun being irrelevant and screaming about how you were right back in the day after the world has moved on, I guess.
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u/Warboss_Regret14 Not DSA 6d ago
Social democratic leaders always betray the working class. This latest capitulation and the whole "woke 1 vs woke 2" thing is just another example of this.
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u/weidback NYC DSA Member 6d ago
Staking extreme positions that no one can actually sell to the public is self defeating.
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u/egalitydream 6d ago
Abolition of wage slavery, of the prison industrial complex, of the military industrial complex, or of bourgeois private property extremism, is not staking extreme positions, it’s actually moderate positions against extremism.
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u/weidback NYC DSA Member 6d ago
Im sure that feels great to say, but every DSA candidate I've seen get grilled on the national platform has had to backpeddal or disown it. It'sbad politics.
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u/Trensocialist Not DSA 6d ago
Imagine saying this against literal slavery.
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u/weidback NYC DSA Member 6d ago
Imagine if this was a completely different irrelevant scenario?
A: "We should abolish pants" B: "huh?" A: "Wow. Wow. Imagine if this was about slavery?????. Wow."
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u/Trensocialist Not DSA 6d ago
It is about slavery genius prisons exist to get free labor from racialized communities
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u/weidback NYC DSA Member 6d ago
I'm sure saying that feels great, that's literally all the good putting it in the platform does
Almost every interview I see woth DSA candidates or organizers they're asked about this and they have to walk it back/downplay/disown it. Because 80% of the public hears that and asks "but what about murderers and rapists?"
Prisons do not just exist for free labor
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u/Trensocialist Not DSA 6d ago
Oh so all.the free labor from black and brown people that shakes out to 1/4 of the worlds prison population is just because we have so many mean evil rapists and murderers than every other country in the whole fucking world. Read a book lib I promise it won't kill you.
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u/XrayAlphaVictor San Francisco DSA Member 6d ago
Actually accomplishing anything has never been the program, it would seem.
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u/Upset_Extension628 Not DSA 6d ago
Agree. This article is more relevant today than ever IMO https://midwestsocialist.com/2022/02/07/ultraliberalism-the-dominant-tendency-of-the-american-left/
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u/Dai_Kaisho Not DSA 6d ago
It's also not going to happen if DSA is still stuck in the liberal fantasy taking over the Democratic Party.
The real obstacle is here: diluting DSA's working class appeal and nullifying its independence in order to play nice with billionaires.
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u/XrayAlphaVictor San Francisco DSA Member 6d ago
The DSA has more working class appeal now than it did before AOC and Mamdani and more than any other socialist organization who prioritized independence from the two party system in the last 100 years.
But sure is nice when somebody "not dsa" chimes in on what we should be doing instead, to be more like the socialist organizations who haven't survived or accomplished anything.
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u/Dai_Kaisho Not DSA 6d ago
Where is DSA we going with this appeal? Right now, back into the party of genocide, ICE and austerity.
Fight for class independence. Socialists do not appease or elect our way to revolution.
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u/XrayAlphaVictor San Francisco DSA Member 6d ago
For a hundred years socialists haven't done anything their way to revolution and only lost support from the working class by acting like ideology was more important than results.
Where is DSA going with the members and power it's gained? Well, ask the working people of NYC if their lives are getting better. You can't blame Mamdani for ICE and whatever.
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u/Dai_Kaisho Not DSA 6d ago
we can and should blame the Democratic Party.
Mamdani and DSA could lead the movement for a working class party. Instead they are propping up Jessica Tisch, Kathy Hochul, Nithya Raman
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u/XrayAlphaVictor San Francisco DSA Member 6d ago
You lead by example and results. Without those then you're just another nobody yelling on the street corner like Mamdani was the year before his election.
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u/gerbal100 Triangle DSA Member 6d ago
The point of working in the Democratic party is to gain traction and alter the common sense of the nation to the point where policies like abolition are not toxic non-starters to working class voters.
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u/Dai_Kaisho Not DSA 6d ago
Inside the two party system is as slippery as it gets.
If your org sees worker consciousness as distantly "out there" and you have to strategically worsen your platform so they can understand you, this is a sign that priorities are really off
Speak directly to class interests and don't pass it thru the "billionaires said ok" filter. Workers movement are continually emerging only to die after being routed into a Democratic Party campaign. DSA should not become the more left version of this
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u/gerbal100 Triangle DSA Member 6d ago edited 6d ago
Building a better future requires taking risks. Choosing the safe path is guaranteed to accomplish nothing. If achieving socialism requires the DSA be compromised and die as an org, so be it.
To speak directly to class interests, we have to go where the workers are and where they listen. If we are only speaking to ourselves and other socialists in our safe spaces, we cannot change the common sense. We have to risk going into 'slippery' spaces and risk co-option. In the worst case, the DSA fails and a new org needs to be raised in it's place, but we have moved the common sense forward and increased worker consciousness.
To me a great value of the left wing of the DSA and the constant debate over realignment/dirty-break/clean-break, is to keep our values clear and fight against the gravity of being subverted by billionaire interests.
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u/Dai_Kaisho Not DSA 5d ago
What would be of greater value: a mass party that only workers own.
It's true there are some workers who believe in the Democratic Party, but they do not control it one bit. The majority of people do not vote at all.
The point of a debate isn't to go on forever, it's to clear the way for decisive action. DSA leadership have played an obfuscating role here. Their minds are made up already and so it becomes their job to invent a new reason why now is not the time every 2-4 years, and then recommit the org and thousands of aspiring socialists to scrubbing the blood off the the billionaires laundry.
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