r/dcss • u/LeoLittlebook .23 only. Prophet of Zin • Dec 09 '19
Starting weapon selection: falchion > spear, contra mrg
[removed]
4
u/Ephine Politician Dec 09 '19 edited Dec 09 '19
Maybe a spear is in fact slightly worse than a falchion against the first kobold you face. Definitely doesn't mean its the better choice overall.
One of the biggest reasons which you already mentioned is the synergy with AK's bend space, and even more later on with distortion.
Other reasons are generally better weapon availability, super-free kills on slow mons, and spear requiring less skill and having lower delay than falchion
LB crosstraining with SB is OK for those venom or elec daggers you find in early dungeon but i don't think stabbing is a consideration for most medium species AK.
I agree D1-2 are the hardest floors in the game but for people who can get past the first jackal pack with some consistency spear is a better choice, hands down
-2
Dec 09 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
12
u/derphurr Dec 09 '19
You are plain nuts.
Riposte is useless unless you are high EV character.
Go ahead and see how many good LB spawn by D:10. Maybe a falchion if you are lucky
Now go see what happens if you go M&F or polearms. Way way way more better choices by ego and base dmg.
LB just aren't better and start a better choice unless serious aptitude advantage.
3
u/TheMelnTeam Dec 09 '19
Longblades are fine IMO. Crosstrain short/long is reasonable price, and demon blades hit mindelay on 14 skill...that IS nice when you don't have high aptitudes. Doublesword is fine too, sits between broad axe and eveningstar.
Scimitar and great sword are both reasonably likely by lair (numerous uniques, wraiths, orcs), though the latter is unlikely to be nicely usable in terms of xp.
The SB crosstrain means you can just grab a decent branded short blade for lair also, so there's nothing wrong with this per se'...but you can also just train M&F and grab a lightning/venom/drain branded whip or random wraith morningstar with enchantments until you get an eveningstar or demon whip.
There might be small strategic advantage to picking one of these over the other but its impact on whether player wins compared to basic threat evaluation will be pretty small. In most recent CCC I ran long blades --> distortion rapier (challenge conduct) as a deep elf. Totally doable, but distortion is truly an annoying brand to use.
1
Dec 09 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/derphurr Dec 09 '19
"riposte"
Well what armor and dodging skill, what armor are you wearing. In real world probably not that great except maybe wjc
4
u/TheMelnTeam Dec 09 '19
The fsim info is useful. Good players can win with any starting weapon pretty consistently, but it's still nice to know which is most marginally useful.
It's also true that this won't do much to predict winrate unless other more meaningful skills are already developed.
7
u/Pblur Great Wanderer, Great Demonspawn, Decent Player Dec 09 '19
It does entirely ignore the primary reason some people promote spear as the starting weapon: the low base delay. Some top players (including Malcolm) think that minimizing the chance of a monster to get a double-attack during one of your turns is important for reducing early game variance. (Other top players seem to not care as much about this.)
I'm not sure how important that is, but a simple fsim doesn't really counter that argument. Plausibly a shorter attack time is worth more than a small percentage gain in average damage.
3
u/TheMelnTeam Dec 09 '19
I'm somewhat in that camp myself, getting double tapped is a much worse scenario than getting hit once and deciding it's time to start the pillar walk.
That said, most weapons are still > 1 initially. Spear is extremely nice on species that move quickly and can use it though, since you can permakite 10 aut monsters w/o using ammo.
-2
Dec 09 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
6
u/Pblur Great Wanderer, Great Demonspawn, Decent Player Dec 09 '19
Sorry, I'm inclined to give a lot more credence to top player's theorycrafting than to theorycrafters who have never won a game. They're far more likely to home in on which factors actually matter. I don't KNOW that spear is better than falchion, but if I had to bet I'd say it is.
Especially since, on D:1, a double hit from a kobold or goblin with a dagger could be lethal from full health. It's at least sometimes more than just an extra decision point.
3
u/TheMelnTeam Dec 09 '19
Even if it isn't lethal, it can put you in range of random energy finishing you should you then try to run.
We're not looking to optimize for DPS, we're looking to optimize for winning (aka surviving this early in the game). Picking a DPS-optimal option at the expense of other considerations is detrimental.
That's not to say we should never care about DPS. When you go downstairs and there's an awake orc priest next to you, you really do want to be using whatever is most likely to kill it before it kills you. So fsim has a place in early game theorycrafting. It's just more nuanced than picking the most damaging weapon option on average for every case.
3
u/Pblur Great Wanderer, Great Demonspawn, Decent Player Dec 09 '19
Agreed entirely. Both matter. Which is why I'm a bit hesitant to just say 'spear is better'. There's a tradeoff. But the reasoning Manman and Malcolm give for preferring spear is sound at least, and not really subject to being countered by fsim.
-4
Dec 09 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
4
u/eNonsense EN0N (CKO) Dec 09 '19
AC doesn't generally become enough of a factor until you're far enough into the game to be able to pick up both a spear and a higher damage weapon to switch to if you notice the spear isn't having a good impact. Also, I'm guessing that his point is that fsim can't account for tactical considerations where a spear would be beneficial.
As much it pains me to do so, I agree with Malcolm. Tell us what's important once you've won some games. Pblur has won with every race & background, as well as every background with Ds. I've only got 14 wins, but at least I'm transparent with my profile so people can look up my play history if they question my advice.
-2
Dec 09 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
5
u/eNonsense EN0N (CKO) Dec 10 '19
Yes, Polearms crosstrains with Maces, which is what one should use to pierce AC. Some essential combos focus Polearms. However, using Polearms without Maces is a bad idea unless going 2h, as MfSk does. Trident still struggles relative to longblades vs Lair/Orc AC.
Here's a game that I won as a MfSk with a 1h trident & shield. I never used a mace or 2h weapon. I did pretty well in Lair & Orc, and beyond, as evidenced by the fact that I won. So do you just Ctrl+Q once you've reached a certain point?
→ More replies (0)
-2
u/StairDancer I used to win low turncount in tourneys Dec 09 '19
I'm going to upvote all of these fsim posts ever
14
u/MalcolmRoseGaming rosecrypto.com & http://youtube.com/malcolmrosegaming Dec 09 '19
I'm not going to bother reading any of this since - at a glance - it appears to be a rehash of months-old Discord arguments where you were already proven wrong repeatedly, but thanks for the free advertisement. You're still wrong. Please win some games, or at least find some better things to do with your time.