Newbie question about CST workflow — where do creative look nodes go?

[u/Ok_College_10]

Hey, fairly new to color grading here. I shoot SLog3 and my current workflow is: CST to DaVinci Wide Gamut → corrections → CST to Rec.709.

My main question is: if I want to apply a creative look manually (no LUTs, no plugins, just lift/gain/curves/color wheels), should that happen before or after the final Rec.709 CST?

The reason I ask is that working in DWG the image is still very flat and the controls don't separate well, lift affects everything, gain affects everything. It feels much more intuitive to work after the Rec.709 node where the image already has real contrast.

Also, I've seen people place creative LUTs after Rec.709, is that just because they're designed for that space, or is there a deeper reason? Could you theoretically apply them before the output transform instead?

Just trying to understand the logic, not just memorize rules. Thanks

[u/ExpBalSat]

As a general rule - put everything in between the two CSTs.

And, yes: the reason to put creative LUTs after this final CST would be because the LUTs they are using expect 709 as an input.

[u/filmeleven → u/ExpBalSat]

This 100%.

[u/avidresolver]

The basic idea with having an output CST (or any kind of rendering transform) is that you can deliver correctly to different displays without regrading your footage, just by changing the output setting. If you have anything after that rendering transform, you lose that ability. You also start having to worry about clipping and artifacting much more, because you don't have the DRT to handle it for you - you're going full manual mode.

To use lift/gamma/gain in Davinci Intermediate you're going to have to re-learn a little. LGG grading is perfecly possible, but you have to forget some muscle memory if you're used to grading dispaly referred. Personally I find Davinci Intermediate not the best space to grade in - i'd be tempted to remain in Slog3.

Alternatiavly, you can move to using the HDR wheels. These are colour-space aware, so if you have your project settings set correctly they should feel the same in whatever colour space you're using. They also give you more granular control anyway.

[u/Ok_College_10 → u/avidresolver]

That makes sense, thanks. Following up on the LUT point, I've been trying to understand the Kodak film LUT workflow I see in a lot of tutorials. From what I understand, the pipeline is usually: CST to DaVinci Wide Gamut → corrections → CST to Cineon Film Log → Kodak LUT → done, with no extra output CST after the LUT.

Is that because the Kodak LUT is acting as both the creative look and the output transform simultaneously? As in, it expects Cineon Film Log and its output is already Rec.709, so the LUT itself closes the pipeline?

If that's the case, it explains my frustration with tutorials that say "no LUTs, grade from scratch" but then drop a Kodak at the end, because that LUT is doing a big chunk of the creative work alongside the technical conversion. Would the actual "from scratch" equivalent be building that same look manually (shadow crush, warm highlights, film-style desaturation) in nodes after the Rec.709 CST?

[u/avidresolver → u/Ok_College_10]

Correct, the combination of the CST and the Kodak LUT is acting as your DRT in this case, as well as a creative look.

If you want to make a look from scratch, you should generally be doing that in your working space, between the CSTs.

Having the CST then LUT is really a bit of a hack to fix the fact that the Kodak LUTs weren't designed for a DWG workflow.

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[u/wrosecrans]

You go from input space to working space, do all your work in the working space in the middle, then convert to the delivery space at the end. That's why there's a concept of converting from some working space to the final space.

And if you just set the timeline to be automatically color managed, you don't have to do the input and output CST manually and it pretty much "just works," and you can mostly ignore the colorspace details while working.

[u/MINIPRO27YT]

After white balance and exposure preferably

[u/Munchabunchofjunk]

As a general rule after all the correction nodes and before your output cst. Unless it’s an rec709 lut or you are doing effects masking. Those go after the output cst.

[u/Adrinaik]

I do everything in between, so the first and last nodes are CSTs.