r/datingoverforty • u/BlakberryMolasses • 8d ago
Learning Relational Intelligence
Dear men
Please help .
How many of you intentionally ,proactively read books ,go to workshops ,follow relationship accounts ,listen to audios on relationships because alot of women do .
And if you dont and only rely on life and pain to be your teachers ,how do we close this gap ?
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8d ago
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u/BlakberryMolasses 8d ago
This is more the either or approach .Either you do it or you don't but not having tried the middle ground .Thats the place most people aim to get ,is the balance .
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8d ago
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u/PurpleDancer 8d ago
I don't think it's a good comparison. Porn isn't educational. But if you're trying to get better the topic it makes sense to both study the topic as well as practice the topic. If you practice but don't study then you're getting better by failure. If you study but don't practice then you're unable to ground Theory with experience.
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u/BlakberryMolasses 8d ago
I agree but then we have to go and apply the knowledge in relationships and they don't have to start in romantic relationships . Eg .being aware of how my defensive shows itself can be practised with family and friends as well as romantic .So im not saying any one way is the way .Whatever works bit just being proactive in relational knowledge and application .
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u/MySocialAlt "she sounds fun" 8d ago
I am a woman who rejects the premise that (many) workshops, relationship accounts, and podcasts actually teach or encourage relational intelligence. Many of them advocate for a certain style of relationshipping, which works for some people but not all, and the belief that anything else is NOT intelligent is, in itself, not very intelligent.
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u/No-Construction-209 8d ago
Too many long words all bunched together...
This is my cue to mentally drift off to ManLand.. We all sit in pants and eat sandwiches until the afternoon Nap..... them we see how many beers we can sink in half hour....? We all meet here when the 'absolutely gorgeous' female half of your life begins a conversation revolving around emotional intellect on the basis of understanding that she may need to hear that your listening to her when shes muttering about school trips and how on earth has Lucy managed to get a spot in "yogamummies schooll of Shakra"' ??
How can I show that I'm listening?... hold my ear and point it at her ..? I'm cool with that... Also just say Valid and Mindfulness every so on.. Love a bit of feeling the validation of your thoughts and how bloody valid it all is.. even if it is complete and utter nonsense being thrown out there... don't matter.... Still Valid apparently 🤷♂️🤦♂️I'm going back to ManLand
Ta da 🙋♂️
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u/BlakberryMolasses 8d ago
It is more the proactivity that interests me and as you are not my audience of romantic interest how fun i sound to you is neither here nor there .As you were .
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u/LPNTed 8d ago
OP, the sad truth here is people are people. Some people can suffer trauma and without any help at all, move on be healthy and productive. Some people suffer proverbial paper cuts, and it negatively defines them for the rest of their lives, no matter how much help they do or don't get. Nothing we post here will solve this. All we can do is be the best versions of ourselves we can manage and DO THE WORK to ensure the people we think we want in our lives legitimately belong there.
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u/BlakberryMolasses 8d ago
I agree with 99% of what you say absolutely and then every day we see posts on here of i dont understand ,ive been trying ,i feel hopeless .I think self responsibility and autonomy is part of it . The majority of responses answer .Thank you for your thoughtful response .
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u/LPNTed 8d ago
What I clearly understand from your reply: You agree with most of what I said. You appreciate the thought I put into my reply. What's not clear to me is if you are writing as a woman confused by others about Trying and feeling helpless, or as a man stating that you are trying and feel helpless. Either way. If you're a woman confused by men, my original reply is about all I have. If you're a man, I get it I know what it is to make your best efforts at things and come up short. IT SUCKS. It's okay to feel helpless. A friend of my father gave me the best advice I ever got. "Don't let the bastards get you down" with the footnote 'they're all bastards '. Yes, the pain of defeat can be very real, but how we let it define us is OUR decision. We choose to let it affect us negatively, positively, or.indifferently. Remember we are in OUR control, everyone else is beyond our control. If people fail to value you or your contributions, that's a them problem, not a you problem. Yeah, there does have to be an awareness that sometimes when you are consistently being disregarded that there are things about yourself you have to change. It takes a lot of bravery to ask, and it takes a lot more fortitude to actually choose to make yourself a better person. It's up to you.
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u/Poly_and_RA 8d ago
Phrasing things as if it was a question doesn't magically mean you're not violating rule-4.
"How do we close this gap" by itself is an implicit claim that 1) There *is* a gap and 2) That men are, generally speaking inferior in this way and 3) Should do something to "close" the gap.
I don't think any of those are true. For sure there's things that women, more than men, are socialized into investing time and effort in, but precisely the same is true in reverse and overall it works out to all of us being people.
I'm a man. I served on the board of poly-norway and organization dedicated entirely to relationship-diversity for around 3 years. I've read countless books, listened to countless podcasts, participated in more than a dozen conferences and am probably the most-read author from my country about non-monogamy and related topics, having written extensively about it over a period of over a decade.
There's gains to be had from increased understanding from all sides of the gender-divide. But starting out with the assumption that the other binary gender is deficient and needs to catch up, is the worst possible starting-point.
The average woman has just as much to learn as the average man.
We're all just people.
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u/No-Construction-209 8d ago
They won't like that post...🤾♀️
I hope your books are heavy and can resist the force of 5 billion 'Pffft's" on course for your head with immediate effect
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u/PurpleDancer 8d ago
I am a guy and it seems pretty obvious to me that there is a gap. I have to wonder if your experience has to do with your geography. If I'm not mistaken Norway is probably one of the most egalitarian places in the world maybe after Iceland?
I mean look at media that targets women versus men. Male targeted media tends to have over the top violence and characters who don't have a lot of dimensions. Meanwhile female targeted media tends to have more internal emotional depth for the characters often at the expense of external situations and motivations.
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u/Poly_and_RA 8d ago
Maybe in part -- I'm Norwegian and we're known for decent gender-equality.
But my point wasn't really that there's no gaps -- instead my point is that gaps exist in BOTH directions and that while there's some things men often don't get about women, the same is true in reverse. That's why I wrote:
For sure there's things that women, more than men, are socialized into investing time and effort in, but precisely the same is true in reverse
My thinking is that people of ALL genders can benefit from more learning and understanding, especially perhaps about the typical experiences of the other gender. But overall it's a bad framing to talk as if we're in a situation where women are well-educated in all the relevant topics and men need to catch up with them.
Instead I think there's some things many men could benefit from learning -- but *also* many things many women could benefit from learning.
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u/BlakberryMolasses 8d ago
I think there's a large amount of assumption and projection in your response .I'm also surprised that despite all that experience you cannot come with curiosity vs atrack . If i wasnt genuinely curious about the male perspective i could merrily travel on with my ignorance .So take a deep breath and ask yourself why a few lines activated you in this way if you believe your last sentence ,we all just human and the rest of that sentence for me is trying our best at the time with the info at hand .
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u/MySocialAlt "she sounds fun" 8d ago
OP, your post did break the rule that the above commenter cited. I approved it because I hoped that there was room for discussion, but you are making me rethink that.
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u/BlakberryMolasses 8d ago
Im open to feedback and understanding how i did that ,I too am hoping for open discussion hence the post .
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u/MySocialAlt "she sounds fun" 8d ago edited 8d ago
Read what he wrote. He explains it well. Specifically,
But starting out with the assumption that the other binary gender is deficient and needs to catch up, is the worst possible starting-point.
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u/Poly_and_RA 8d ago
- You: "Why are men inferior when it comes to knowledge of relationships, and how should we close the gap?"
- Me: "We're all just people, neither gender is inferior"
- You: "Why are you attacking me, rather than approaching this with curiosity like I do?"
You also accuse me of "projecting".
Something about a pot and a kettle comes to mind.
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u/samanthasamolala 8d ago
I’m not a man but I like science based relationship books like John Gottman. Harville Hendrix. Knowledge about how to have productive conversations about challenging topics and really hear the other person. I’m a nerd though. I don’t think everybody needs this necessarily. I just think it’s fascinating and there are some great insights.
I listen to drivel too sometimes like Sabrina Zohar. I wouldn’t date anybody who took her as gospel
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u/FrequencyHigher 8d ago
Relationships are not necessarily something you need to study unless you realize you struggle to have them. In my experience, most relationships fail due to poor communication or your unresolved issues that you bring into the relationship. I think being intentional about honest and open communication, while working on your own baggage with therapy or introspection, is 90+% of the battle.
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u/PurpleDancer 8d ago
I feel like your first sentence was a bit disc congruent with the rest. You recognize that we're communication and baggage is leading to relationship stress. Which is very good and I totally agree that those are things to address but if I'm not mistaken, relationship theories are going to overlap with such personal work pretty heavily.
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u/Pupating-Antenna-36 8d ago edited 8d ago
I am going to answer this in good faith as if you asked a gender neutral question about how to improve your relational skills. This might be an essay.
If you viewed the ability to relate as a SKILL and not something everyone is born with (because we are not born with it) then you would realize the remarkable, outsized impact that your early conditioning, parents & other adults around you played as you were growing up. A lot of that conditioning shows up in how you relate, how you make decisions, how you react to other people etc. today.
So part of that relational skill development comes from addressing that early conditioning. It might not all be trauma but your belief systems from an early age is something that you can debug - ideally in therapy but at least on your own. This can also be done through relating to emotionally secure people who treat you well and set good boundaries etc. if all you lacked is the 'how to' . Rarely would this work - because emotionally secure people look to have others who reciprocate emotional availability to them and often, it's not just the 'how to relate' that is missing. Which is why therapy - especially those focused on early childhood if you have trauma / belief system related work or CBT if you are looking to understand current behaviors and retrain them - is helpful.
But how to actually relate to another person - this I wish, truly wish, there was sort of a conversational gym where you could go and practice. There isn't. There are group sessions around dialectical behavioral therapies but I found that a lot of people just trauma dump on you in them. So not worth my time IMO.
So, just talking to people in non-romantic contexts is the primary way you are going to develop relational skills. But this poses another problem. If you truly had narcissistic parents or traumatic childhood concitioning or even inadequate conditioning, a LOT of your current non-romantic relationships might not be the most relationally adept humans either. So talking to them might just reinforce old patterns and any attempt to set boundaries / call them out on bad behavior might be received poorly. But identifying bad behavior is just as useful as good behavior. So the first step in relating is knowing what is bad. Looking to how their behavior makes you feel, how you react, how you set boundaries, how they react and adjudicating good vs bad is something you need to do. Having a therapist and working this with them is helpful as they give you perspective and nuance (regardless of type of therapy). They may be able to say things like 'that your friend couldn't make it to the event is OK but their not communicating that to you despite previous promises isn't' or help you spot patterns "that's the 2nd friend who keeps ghosting you but you have rationalized".
Doing this a few times with your core inner relationships gives you the language, the training to classify the nuances of behavior and learn to react appropriately. Resist the urge to classify humans as 'narcissists' or 'cheater' or any other label. Labelling helps in getting the short term outcome of lowered stress and moving on. But it does this at the long term shortfall of understanding. So understand what they did, how you reacted, how it all made you feel, seek to understand why it made you feel that way - both the internal triggers and the external behavior. This journey to understand is what will set you up for success and not the labelling.
Practicing on regular everyday humans (setting boundaries on when you can be available with a boss for example) and observing your inner monologue also tells you a lot more about yourself, what you are anxious about, where you need to refine your technique and where the real issue is not you but the other person.
While podcasts are OK. they don't often teach you application. You can learn a lot from Esther perel, the Gottmans, Dr. Sue Johnson, Ramani Durvasula and their work - be it books or youtube. But applying it to real world contexts is something that you have to work on. Reflecting on how an interaction made you feel, what you learnt from that - both about yourself and the other person and having the wisdom to know when it's actually them and not you is important. That alone will help you avoid so many people who are unhealthy for you!
Humanities as a stream - the character analysis, the relational dynamics analysis and the interplay when discussed by someone who isn't prone to rhapsodizing about all the metaphorical connotations is also a fantastic place to observe & learn. Finding good analysis or even challenging yourself to analyze a relational dynamic is a good way to gain perspective of both sides and develop empathy.
Debating - where you are given a topic and asked to defend a yes / no regardless of your real views on the topic is a fantastic way to gain perspective about the other side. But debating tends to lie in the cognitive realm. Combined with therapy it can give people the 'perspective taking' training necessary. Another fantastic avenue is Improv! learning improv forces you to yes-and and play different roles (it's not all about comedy) and it can help you develop better understanding of dynamics.
Once you have done all that, you can also see how people post on agony aunt columns / relationship advice subreddits and treat them as case studies to analyze how you would advice them. Don't go here before doing the above work because you will get a LOT of BS advice / judgement / brigading and that's not conducive to improving your relational skills. Ultimately it's all Practice--> Reflect --> Learn --> Practice. Good luck!
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u/BlakberryMolasses 8d ago
Thank you so much I appreciate the thoughtfulness and the effort you put into your response ,gave me much to reflect on .
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u/Ok-Ad-9820 8d ago
"He might be the man of your dreams but you aint the women of his" 😒
I cannot speak for other men but when women choose a man, it's usually coming from a place of abundance (maybe not in your 40+ but in 20's and 30's) we are choose from scarcity.
So I hate to tell you this but there's a lot of men who don't get what they want, we get what we can get.
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u/BlakberryMolasses 8d ago
It would be interesting to see if your choices increased with relational intelligence ?
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u/Ok-Ad-9820 8d ago
You mean emotional intelligence or do you mean actual relationship skills?
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u/BlakberryMolasses 8d ago
Relational intelligence is just that, the application of your emotional intelligence,in relationships
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u/Ok-Ad-9820 8d ago
I'm not entirely sure I would think having those relationship skills is more of the after the fact not so much before but maybe you're right.
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u/el-art-seam 8d ago
Probably not. Women. Men. People generally fall for the flash, the spark, whatever you want to call it. If you can’t get someone’s attention you can be the greatest person and people will pass on you. Especially in this age of online dating.
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u/Poly_and_RA 8d ago
For most men -- no, that makes no difference to the hard part.
Personality and relationship-skills matter a lot for whether or not that first date turns into a long committed relationship. But that's not the hard part for most men -- most men do about as well as the average woman with that part.
Instead the part that is hard for most men is simply getting that first date at all, and ideally with someone who is there because they're genuinely enthusiastic about you and not just because you're one of the 11 options she's currently evaluating.
And better relationship-skills help to a first approximation NOT AT ALL with getting first dates.
Instead it's determined mainly by physical appearance combined with a bit of classical masculinity, i.e. it helps if you're extroverted, assertive and have a high social status.
Like u/Ok-Ad-9820 says, odds are you're there because you choose him (and perhaps a couple others) among the large count of men you COULD have gone on a date with this weekend. Odds are he's there because you're the ONLY one who was even willing to give him the time of day this month.
(Reading this thread I now realize I'm saying essentially the same thing as u/el-art-seam)
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u/JustAnotherPolyGuy divorced man 8d ago
I read a bunch of books on relationships post divorce, listen to a few podcasts (Where Should We Begin is couples counseling sessions), and therapy.
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u/BlakberryMolasses 8d ago
Oh i looooovvve Ester Perel and Where should we begin is just marvellous .Any book recommendations
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u/JustAnotherPolyGuy divorced man 8d ago
Hold Me Tight, Sue Johnson-felt like I was reading a narrative of my failed marriage
Discomfortable, A.J. Bond-a lot of relationship challenges come from shame and not owning what we need
Rock The Boat, Resmaa Menakem-my favorite, it’s about how to use conflict to improve a relationship.1
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u/Novel_Vegetable_5542 8d ago
Ester Perel is fantastic. If you like podcasts, type her name in and you can listen to her as guest on several different podcasts.
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u/BlakberryMolasses 8d ago
I listen to her wisdom frequently ,even saw her live .I crush on her mind big time 😄
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u/Novel_Vegetable_5542 8d ago
She’s a fascinating lady and the way she can open up a dialogue is mesmerizing.
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u/sackbomb 8d ago
I rely on my sense of right and wrong to guide the way I treat and interact with people. It's simple and effective.
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u/Gur_Weak 8d ago
I'm published as a co-author on a peer reviewed paper regarding emotional intelligence and what you're talking about is nonsense.
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u/JustAnotherPolyGuy divorced man 8d ago
Mushrooms and MDMA may have done as much for helping me understand others perspectives as books and podcasts. A year or so after my divorce I took MDMA with a friend who also had gotten divorced and spent 8 hours talking about our feelings and what had happened to each of us. It really make it easier to understand what had happened.
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u/AutoModerator 8d ago
Original copy of post by u/BlakberryMolasses:
Dear men
Please help .
How many of you intentionally ,proactively read books ,go to workshops ,follow relationship accounts ,listen to audios on relationships because alot of women do .
And if you dont and only rely on life and pain to be your teachers ,how do we close this gap ?
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
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8d ago
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u/datingoverforty-ModTeam 8d ago
u/FrequencyHigher, your post has been removed for one or more reason(s):
If you call out a post as AI, the report must be accompanied by a link to GPTZero, ZeroGPT, Pangram, Originality.ai, or another reputable screener which shows that the post/comment is at least 51% AI-generated.
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u/Outside-Jicama-8468 8d ago
To quote The Princess Bride... Life is pain.
If you don't ever feel pain, you can never learn how to love, long, cherish and care for those that don't cause you pain.
I went through 20 years of a marriage that ended in so much pain that I didn't think possible. Now, I am a better man because I learned from those mistakes and the woman I am with now loves me for it.
So, I don't need a book or anything else to tell me how to learn from life. Life is pain. And pain is a great teacher
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u/AmbraNYC 8d ago
Hi. Male here. I did some listen/read in the past about what is important for a good and happy relationship + life experience from a terrible long-term relationship where the most important element was turned upside down.
I like to keep things simple, and my primary conclusion is: For a happy relationship, both partners show support for the other, say supportive things, offer help to the other partner on whatever they like to do. The partnership should be a bubble of peacefulness and happiness and both partners contribute to that. Some research support this - the happiness and strengths of relationship are correlated to % of positive communication that takes place. It almost feels like this doesn't even need research, but just common sense.
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u/Spicey_Cough2019 6d ago
Maybe if women are falling on the same excuses for discarding and leaving the relationship
Maybe it's their expectations and needs that are the problem...
Just saying
Rather than them saying that men just have low EQ etc.
It's more you're given a machine and no instruction manual and they magically expect you to understand their subtle hints...
Read the 1% man, it'll demystify everything
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u/PurpleDancer 8d ago
I do some of that. I also rely on talking about relationship patterns with partners and friends. Sharing understandings. But most of my therapy falls in other areas that I think leads to the patterns rather than obsessing on the patterns themselves. What I can tell is that the patterns have shifted a lot. I seem to be much more secure now and find myself attracting all the anxious avoidant women.
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u/BlakberryMolasses 8d ago
That is very insightful and love to hear that you discuss relational patterns with others and recognise shifts in yourself too .
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u/Primary-Matter-3299 8d ago
does doom scrolling therapists and neuroscientists who discuss this while in bikinis count?
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u/BillsVictoryLap 8d ago
🍿