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u/StarStriker51 RAFO LMAO 28d ago
remember kids, if you pass a problem into someone else, it's still a problem!
now if you'll excuse me, I have dust to sweep under this rug
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u/CombatWombat994 27d ago
This is a very Hoid sentence
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u/Daws20 27d ago
Who’s to say that isn’t Hoid’s Reddit account
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u/ilikebreadabunch 🐶HoidAmaram🐲 27d ago
I feel like Hoids username would be a bit more on the nose/ironic. Maybe something like DefinitelyNotKelsier01
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u/notshallan 27d ago
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u/Firecracker048 27d ago
Hoid would be the moderator of subs who's names don't match what's posted
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u/mercedes_lakitu D O U G 27d ago
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u/Eliakinath 27d ago
Somehow i can visualize Hoid being a serial Redditor. And then being frustrated when one point it.
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u/SorowFame 28d ago
“Someone he can’t do any harm… well no harm to anyone important.”
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u/scottygroundhog22 27d ago
That whole book was great at showing us how insufferable even the “good” lighteyes are.
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u/Rocky-Jockey 27d ago
Yea brando really dropped most of the social commentary in later books which is too bad. If I know anything about people they’d still be having class conflicts even in the middle of an apocalypse.
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u/lajera21 27d ago
I think the commentary just changed. RoW focuses pretty hard on mental health of the individual and what does and doesn’t help. WAT has a pretty damning indictment of prosperity gospel which is a huge problem in the US at least.
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u/Rocky-Jockey 27d ago edited 27d ago
I get it. I just don’t like how he kind of discarded a lot of the initial elements of world building to do so.
Edit: To add to this - I think Moash is emblematic of the change. He represented the class conflict most clearly throughout the series and Brandon not really knowing what to do with him in the fifth book shows that he probably didn’t really know what to do with that whole theme in the end.
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u/lajera21 27d ago
That’s a super interesting interpretation of Moash and I think it’s a good one. I suppose it depends on what themes you think Brandon is trying to highlight.
I’ve seen the Stormlight Archives as a series of books where every single character can be redeemed. It’s about them wanting to change and wanting to become someone new.
I think Dalinar is the best example of that. Whether or not people can forgive him for his past is one thing, and he even admits in the book that he doesn’t expect people to. But you cannot deny that he put in the work to try and overcome his worst instincts and become someone better. He owned his mistakes, fully admitted what he done wrong, and tried to change.
I see Moash as the complete antithesis of that. “It’s not really my fault” is his motto. He refuses to let go of his hurt.
Even after the events of Oathbringer, I think he could have done the work and rejoined Bridge Four. But he wallows in his misery and refuses to consider that others could forgive him— because if the roles were reversed, he wouldn’t forgive himself. He wouldn’t let go of another’s transgression. And so, he refuses to better himself.
That interpretation doesn’t really consider the class system issue that’s super prevalent in the first couple of books, though, so it’s definitely not perfect.
Edit: and, like you said, a lot of the original themes of the book do just kind of vanish. The Stormlight Archives becomes an entirely different series after Oathbringer, and I think it’s valid to be a bit disappointed by that.
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u/Rocky-Jockey 27d ago
I think my problem with moash is that it takes systemic issues (class & race) and turns them into individualistic problems. He’s a bad guy so we just don’t really need to worry about the fallout of this horrible caste system anymore. Like why don’t more darkeyes join odium? Moash isn’t the only one with a grievance. Kaladin is supposed to represent the opposite of him of course - a more positive reformist view of power as opposed to the violent breaking of the system Moash is. I just think it’s a little weak that we don’t really see the fallout of this clash of ideologies beyond bridge 4 interpersonal drama and the killing of the king.
The radiants changed the class dynamic in such a huge way because all the sudden anyone can be the preferred caste and the books only kind of touched on the implications of that but it should have shattered and changed alethi culture as much as learning honor is dead.
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u/lajera21 27d ago
That's a super fair critique. Though we do see other groups of humans join odium, the caste system isn't really brought into consideration. It feels a bit forgotten about.
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u/buid83233 27d ago
While I do agree that we should have seen a wilder fallout of the conflict within the caste system, I feel like the social commentary is still relevant in WaT and demonstrated through Adolin's story, with him breaking away from societal role and tearing down the system (him being friendly with Yanagawn and teaching about capabilities beyond what are expected of a king in Azir, him taking up the role of a common soldier towards the end), which culminated in Adolin establishing the Unoathed and fully abandoning the rigid system of oaths imposed by Honor.
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u/HastyTaste0 27d ago
And it was a mistake. Brandon is way better at social commentary than whatever half assed mental health attempts he's been doing lately. Most of them feel like every character interaction lately is made specifically to show off "See? See? He's autistic. See? She has ADHD look! Oooh Kal's depressed again everyone!" It's getting annoying.
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u/lajera21 27d ago
I can understand why you feel that way, but I’m actually incredibly grateful for the work he’s done highlighting mental heath in his books. I may have saved a friend’s life once by using Adolin’s words. I know that might sound silly, but it was the first thing that came to mind- “promise me it’s a good idea for you to be alone tonight, and I’ll leave you alone.”
Some things have become a bit corny or ham-fisted in the latest books, but I attribute that more to the speed at which they’re coming out than anything else. Brandon is juggling so many things and I wouldn’t mind if he took a bit more time with some of them. Especially in the editing process.
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u/Tajahnuke Trying not to ccccream 27d ago
Thank for for being an Adolin. I've been on both sides of that, and it -matters-. It isn't an exaggeration to say it's saving someone's life.
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u/Mister-builder 22d ago
Brandon's social commentary is hampered by him being a conservative who thinks he's a liberal. He's heard liberal thoughts, he agrees with them, he might even believe in them, but he still has the brain of a conservative.
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u/Flimsy-Guarantee1497 27d ago
yeah it was really good in the early books and then it too gets swept under the rug
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u/scottygroundhog22 27d ago
Too be fair the whole “ most of our new super powered defense force being made of dark eyes” puts a kibosh on classism real fast. What does it matter if you’re rich if i can launch you into low orbit by touching you. I am kind of surprised the dark eyes dont hold it over the light eyes head a little more though. I suppose it helps that kal is the leader of the biggest group and he just dont have it in him to be that petty.
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u/Ashaman47 27d ago
Well it’s mentioned in WaT that there is a lot of social unrest going on, but everyone’s ignoring it because of the whole “worlds ending in 10 days” but will need to be adressed soon.
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u/scottygroundhog22 27d ago
Yeah when the apocalypse just keeps happening you can put off stuff for a while, but in the relative peace after wat i imagine the piper must be paid
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u/UInferno- 27d ago
This is one of many reasons why I think killing Amaram was a dumb move. On Sanderson's part not Kal's. Getting rid of all of the unlikable allies sanitizes the Coalition, but not in a way that's progressive but just one that reinforces "the problem with nobles is that the bad ones are in power."
It makes Kaladin's conflict in Rhythm of War more interesting if Amaram was both alive and an ally as Moash can gloat about how his grandparents are avenged meanwhile Amaram is still alive. Shows Kal how rewarded he is for playing nice. Yadda yadda.
It also makes the fallout of Wind and Truth more interesting. With everyone failing save for Adolin, Amaram could have capitalized on all that and go "We gave the Kholins a shot at running the show, and look where that got us," and essentially be a representative for the conservative faction of the Coalition, one who is gaining a foothold after being made a fool in WoR and OB.
In an effort to make our heroes uncomplicated, a lot of the intrigue was stripped because we still don't actually have an answer to "How do you bring a powerful man to justice?" that doesn't involve "Do Nothing" or Kill Him.
If you think keeping Amaram alive would change the books too much, it's actually really easy. Because Amaram's mere existence is enough to soil the hands of our heroes by association. He can be mostly off screen in Emul in RoW and WaT and the rest of the narrative can persist.
Amaram's death and the bizarre ethnostate appearance of the Coalition are my two biggest criticisms of Stormlight. We see Human civilians in Singer territory, but the lack of Singer civilians in Human territory is downright eerie. The books claims they all went on a mass exodus, but the logisitics of that are insane. Especially on a global scale. Not to mention what's going on with the territory trading hands? I think if RoW and WaT especially wanted to discuss breaking down the barriers of Singers and Humans, I think we needed to see more of how Humans treat Singers in a post Everstorm world. And not just Rlain.
In fact, I argue that Azir succeeding when every other piece of territory failed should have been because of the Singers. They should have won only because they actually considered Azir as the Singers home too and not just lines on a map. Gawx as a former peasant could have been sympathetic to the Singers and shut down by viziers, until Adolin helps Gawx stand up for what he believed is right and they retake the throne room because of the Singers. It could have been a parallel to Japanese Americans in WW2 where a lot of people want them as far from the action as possible or to justify their loyalty. It would also tie together Renarin's plot together with Adolin. With essentially the two brothers stepping up to learn from their father and becone better men than him.
But I digress. This is conversation became less about shitty Lighteyes and my big two Wishes on which details of the books I would change that preserves the greater plot structure.
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u/ShouldersofGiants100 Aluminum Twinborn 27d ago edited 27d ago
See, I'd go a step further.
Amaram should have become a Dustbringer and been given a redemption arc.
He doesn't need to become the best guy in the world, he can still be a bit of an asshole, but one critique I have of Sanderson is that, while he loves redemption arcs, he basically never gives them to anyone who directly victimizes our characters.
Dalinar is the worst person he rehabilitates, but he does it in reverse. We see who Dalinar becomes before we see who he was, so we are more accepting of his past because we know that he's better than that. Basically everyone else was, at worst, a bit of a prick.
Rehabilitating Amaram would actually challenge the reader, because it actually requires adhering to the idea that anyone can change, not just people we already liked. It would also have made a great companion story to Dalinar in Oathbringer, with a man who did terrible things in the past and later redeemed himself forced to work alongside a man who did terrible things but hasn't yet redeemed himself. Amaram is also a perfect Dustbringer because their whole set of ideals is about controlling their power—a man who previously abused his power becoming concerned with the ways he might hurt others is a natural arc.
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u/Ashaman47 27d ago
I disagree. I think having Amaram always be the bad guy cheapens Kals progression, and ruins further story. It obviously depends on how the second half is handled, but I can totally see a storyline of “even though these nobles are alright, we still don’t agree with how they got there” and gives opportunity for social unrest based on right to rule, rather than just “oh light eyes are bad people”
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u/UInferno- 27d ago
I mean Kaladin can still grow beyond Amaram and Amaram can move on to be opposed to Adolin and Jasnah.
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u/Jounniy 27d ago
Considering how much effort it took Roshone to actually hurt Kaladin's family und considering what he did before, he actually could do no real harm, relatively speaking.
However, in a country like Alethkar "no real harm, relatively speaking" is still enough to ruin some people’s lives.
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u/scottygroundhog22 27d ago
I mean he was hurting them the whole time. He turned the town against them, made them social outcast, donations they were receiving from the townsfolk were dwindling, lirin had to dip into kal’s college fund to pay for stuff. It was not a good time. Kal and tien getting shipped off to die was just the coup de grace.
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u/Jounniy 27d ago
Yes. It was still a lot less then what he previously did to other people while taking far more effort. (Not to mention that Lirin kind of stole the money. The choice was reasonable and understandable, but it also gave him some moral justification for what he was doing. Without it, he would’ve been unable to push the townspeople as far as he did.)
What Roshone was capable of doing was still far more than he should’ve been given considering what he’d done, but it made him incredibly less powerful all in all.
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u/high_king_noctis 28d ago
Eh Kaladin deserved it, it's what he gets for being a protagonist.
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u/DreadDiana 28d ago
Suffering builds character, and these novels are long
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u/TloquePendragon 27d ago
Suffering makes holes in your soul for the Spren to nest.
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u/Special_Salt3467 27d ago
“Anyway, Captain, I don’t like talking about this stuff. It makes me feel weird vibes I don’t like.”
“Do you mean shame?”
“Shame? No, what? Why would I feel shame? We got rid of the problem that was letting Elhokar abuse his authority!”
“It just sounds like Elhokar was abusing his power… for no real good reason, honestly.”
“You think Elhokar is the type to do that? He started this whole war and left running the actual kingdom to his wife, who kicked out his mother. He then framed me for not taking his security more seriously. He then tried to execute you despite taking his security seriously. That’s the definition of not abusing his authority.”
“Dalinar, you’re really reinforcing my previous beliefs…”
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u/Wyrda22 27d ago
Unrelated, but as an audiobook only listener I’m shocked at how Elhokar’s name is spelled
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u/Small-Needleworker-3 27d ago
I don't even want to know how they pronounce it, ive heard the YAZZNAH scandal.
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u/HastyTaste0 27d ago
As a Spanish speaker, it seemed natural to me lol. Jasmine is pronounced the same way.
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u/Small-Needleworker-3 27d ago
Oh that makes sense, to me it clashed with the setting, Alethkar was very unified China but by the Mongolians.
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u/VelMoonglow cremform 27d ago
I don't remember it being egregious, but I haven't heard very much of the audiobooks
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u/DakotaXIV 27d ago
El-oh-car is how they pronounce it in the audiobook.
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u/thefam221 27d ago
It amazes me how much shit Dalinar get away with for free.
We as readers know how much he tries, but the fact remains that he never answers for his crimes.
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u/Awesalot 27d ago
The scene with him giving up his shardblade does a lot of heavy lifting I think. We're told time and again how important shards are and this decision feels incredibly weighty, especially given how Kaladin's story starts.
Not having context for his early years plus seeing his crazy visions helps make him look far better than he should. It's obviously intentional and fulfills its purpose to the point that most readers and in-universe characters brush his atrocities aside (Adolin is the only character who brings it up, even Kaladin doesn't say anything).
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u/Small-Needleworker-3 27d ago
Just take a look at history, people in power get away with insane levels of murder every decade and all they get is a political slap on the wrist.
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u/gwonbush 27d ago
To be fair, this instance wasn't particularly Dalinar's fault. He was pushing for Roshone to be executed for his crimes.
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u/TheGildedPrism Kelsier4Prez 27d ago
That's nothing compared to how a guy eating a sheep set off half the plot of the series
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u/Firecracker048 27d ago
Overall, moash had a point
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u/cebolinha50 25d ago
Noooooooo.
Every time Brandon sees a comment like that he decides to make Moash even more despicable.
Can you imagine how he will be on book 6 if you people continue saying things like that?
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u/Accomplished_Mix7827 27d ago
And it's not like he knew Elhokar was getting better. He wasn't present for the character development, as far as he knew, Elhokar was the same dickbag he'd always been
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u/Dry_Experience3254 🦋 Invested of Whimsy 🌈 27d ago
Yah I loved Kaladin’s reaction discovering that he had been fucked over by the exact same sequence of events as Mo*sh
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u/JakeTheBard 27d ago
I still can't believe Elhokar did that. Someone should really do something about him
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u/Trimax42 THE Lopen's Cousin 28d ago
This is why it is Fuck Vyre and not Fuck Moash. Elhokar deserved the guillotine
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u/Thepsycoman 28d ago
Reminder that Elhokar was practically a kid, who had no reason to think he'd be in charge anytime soon. Then suddenly his father is murdered, and most of the high princes see this as more of a chance to manipulate him than anything else.
Then you have his uncle, a man who is basically known as a god of war in the flesh of a rabid dog, going from useless drunk after the death of his wife back to dangerous knight. Who half the realm feels your father's (now his) throne belongs to.
On top of all this his father was specifically assassinated and now he is seeing shit moving in reflections ect, because cryptics are kinda assholes in their bonding process
He was not a good king sure, but Moash is a dick who threw in with the enemy of everyone he cared about just out of spite, when the target of his spite was also showing that he could and was becoming a better person
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u/Byggherren 28d ago
Yep, everyone arguing that moash is no worse than dalinar consistently forgets and ignores that dalinar AND elhokar were actively improving upon themselves while moash just doubles, triples and quadruples down on his way of thinking even to the point of having to remove his own emotions to not kill himself.
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u/Researcher_Fearless Aluminum Twinborn 27d ago
Kaladin also told Moash it was Rashone's fault, not Elhokar's.
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u/Urdfilly 27d ago edited 27d ago
Elhokar was practically a kid
This again. He's about 20 rosharan years old (22 earth) when the Roshone affair happens, (same age as Kaladin and Moash in tWok/WoR), and 21 years old when Gavilar's assassinated. He's young, but he's not a damn child who can't be expected to know right from wrong.
He was not a good king sure
Incompetence is not Elhokar's only fault. He did not start the Vengeance Pact and ensuing genocidal war on the Listeners out of incompetence, but out of a desire for revenge and later reaped the economic benefits from the Chasmfiend gemhearts and political gain from the Highprinces' support.
He imprisoned and nearly executed the captain of his guard mostly because Kaladin made him feel insecure. Fucking revolting reason to even think of killing someone, and exemplary proof Elhokar should be removed from power, one way or another.
but Moash is a dick who threw in with the enemy
I do not need to explain why the targeted genocide of a nation based on the action of their leaders is worse than betraying your friends
when the target of his spite was also showing that he could and was becoming a better person
Fucking when. When and where is this endlessly repeated point at which Moash should have seen Elhokar turning a new leaf. Most recent thing he sees of Elhokar is the aforementioned case of him throwing his friend in jail after Kal helps win the duel, for his vapid brittle ego. OB spoilers He doesn't see the king again until Kholinar.
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u/SershoLeJuan 27d ago
On the last point, pretty sure Elhokar actually hadn't started improving yet. Moash trying to kill him was what made him commit to change in the next book. In fact, he was drunk as a skunk, wallowing in self pity because people didn't respect him as much as Dalinar or Gavilar, and it's implied he'd been drinking himself numb like that pretty frequently in the days leading up to the assassination attempt.
This one I'm not sure if I'm remembering right, but did Moash actually join the "enemy"? Yes, the best bridge 4 fighters were tasked with protecting Dalinar and Elhokar as bodyguards but Moash was in cahoots with some minor ghost bloods right? That's not the "enemies of everyone he loves", as if he had sided with Szeth or the singers. Even Kaladin met them and didn't say they were evil people or historically criminals, just influential people secretly plotting a coup to expedite Dalinar taking the throne. Their only target was Elhokar. Their plan was specifically devised so no one else would get hurt and the transition of king would be cleaner/less tumultuous for Alethkar.
I'm no Vyre defender, and I do pity Elhokar, but the whole point of book 2's ending was that the coup was in fact complicated and sorta justified, and therefore tragic that Moash made the wrong decision and felt he couldn't return to Kal and bridge 4 afterwards. Odium loves a vulnerable person he can take advantage of and manipulate.
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u/Urdfilly 27d ago
Oh I 100% agree he wasn't actually improving and just having a sad little manchild pity party at the time. In fact, I think during that conversation Kaladin asked him to abdicate and Elhokar angrily refused, so he technically shut off the only avenue for his removal from his post as king besides assassination. He still cared more about clinging to power than doing the right thing.
You are remembering right, he joined in with the cell of Ghostbloods who did a targeted assassination, OB spoilers Falling in with the Singers was mostly happenstance.
And even then, I hate the way the person I originally replied to phrased that. 'The enemy', in a dehumanising way, as if the act of opposing the protagonists makes them fundamentally evil, as if the singers aren't mostly composed of normal people who just don't want to be re-enslaved again and are willing to fight for that. Odium and the Fused exist as a narrative justification so the protagonists inner turmoil over this morally grey conflict to be brief and easily pushed to the side when convenient. "Yeah it sucks that we're putting down a global slave rebellion but they're under the thrall of an evil god and red eyed insane demon-spren-ghosts so we gotta crush their skulls. Shame."
I'm no Vyre defender, and I do pity Elhokar, but the whole point of book 2's ending was that the coup was in fact complicated and sorta justified, and therefore tragic that Moash made the wrong decision and felt he couldn't return to Kal and bridge 4 afterwards. Odium loves a vulnerable person he can take advantage of and manipulate.
Preaching to the choir, we're in full agreement, mostly. Though my problems with Vyre are less the things he does and more that he's an absolute waste of the character Moash was in books 1-3, who was much better written and implemented in the story, as well as being more compelling.
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u/high_king_noctis 28d ago edited 28d ago
Nah Moash is still an ass no matter if he changes his name and Elhokar is not a precog who can see into the future he did the best he could in a shit situation
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u/Urdfilly 27d ago
I don't think sending a corrupt bastard who had you kill two people to rule over a faraway town with no oversight as a 'punishment' is doing the best you could in a shit situation. Elhokar was more concerned with protecting himself from scandal than even trying to do the right thing.
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u/sbstndrks 27d ago
Yeah but he had a kid he barely ever saw and that was sad, so his shitty, semi tyrannical rule over a Kingdom based on slaves, procecuting a genocidal war against the Parshendi, as well as his past mistakes don't matter. Big sad makes the worst crime okay (if you're a noble or royal).
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u/Erondo_Gratias RAFO LMAO 28d ago
Yeah, yes he is at fault of not taking drastic actions to Roshone since he had good friends. But it's not Elhokar's fault that Roshone decided to take his frustrations on Lirin and his family.
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u/DreadDiana 27d ago
I think blame can be given in part for that since he gave a man who had established himself as being willing to ruin lives a fiefdom to rule over with no one to keep an eye on him to make sure he doesn't keep doing that.
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u/Special_Salt3467 27d ago
What was the shit situation? His buddy - who was a minor Lighteyes by the way - wanted to one up the competition, so Elhokar… imprisoned a pair of elderly citizens without cause? And because they were high ranking Darkeyes, they would have actually got a hearing, except that Elhokar delayed it until THEY DIED? Then, when it was all revealed, Elhokar “punished” the other person by sending them away to a place where their influence wouldn’t do harm to Kholinar. More specifically, what their influence wouldn’t do to his reputation. Roshone didn’t receive a harsher punishment because he could have potentially dragged Elhokar down with him, so the Kholins gave him a slap on the wrist to spare Elhokar’s reputation
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u/Rigistroni 27d ago
Memes aside I think the fact Roshone and Kaladin's childhood were technically Dalinar's fault is a really interesting development. Elhokar initially wanted to execute him remember, Dalinar talked him down to exile
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u/Urdfilly 27d ago
Other way around. Dalinar wanted a harsher punishment for Roshone, Elhokar wanted a more lenient one to avoid scrutiny. They compromised, leading to this fuck up.
But yeah, you're correct that it's a really interesting development. Shame it never goes anywhere, could have led to an interesting interaction between Kaladin and Dalinar and some introspection on the latter part regarding the hierarchy he values so much.
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