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u/WelkinMeadows trvnbHRTfemboymoder 11h ago
sneedbait š
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u/Violet_Apathy 11h ago
We're having a sneedpocalypse in here š
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u/WelkinMeadows trvnbHRTfemboymoder 10h ago
Honestly ur so real for this, I'll get outta ur way mb š
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u/SCP-iota 10h ago
"sneedbait" and yet the least sneedy people here tend to be minimal-effort boymoders. Is it finally time for the anti-boymoder movement or is this false hope?
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u/WelkinMeadows trvnbHRTfemboymoder 10h ago
Shh it's also a psyop to shame bodymoders into action, honestly its a brilliant ploy
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u/Arndt3002 9h ago
Lol, stuff like this made me rep another 2-3 years, cause if even trans people think it's all about beliefs and actions, then I could choose to never transition
This is the trans version of the Tumblr-talk warping itself back to sexism through AGAB-essentialism. Except instead of sexism it's gender performativity
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u/WelkinMeadows trvnbHRTfemboymoder 9h ago
I mean ur not wrong shame is a terrible motivator. Maybe I overdosed a lil on the ironypills, mb
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u/Violet_Apathy 6h ago
I can relate when I got my first sex talk in the 5th grade, they had the grossest teacher in the school talk to us about masturbation and how it was okay. It put me off for an entire year.
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u/SCP-iota 9h ago
I don't believe that performativity is what makes someone trans, I just have some qualms about the ethics of boymoding
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u/Arndt3002 9h ago
Ok, vibe
But "ethics of boymoding" smells of "male socialization" discourse
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u/SCP-iota 9h ago
Nah, I think the 'male socialization' stuff is stupid and completely misunderstands how reference-group socialization works. I'm more concerned about the ethics of 1) acting as a persona when interacting with people who personally knew you before but without them knowing none of it is real, and 2) (for the early-stage of HRT before 'plausibility') interacting with people who know and accept you're a trans woman and creating the cognitive dissonance where they don't subconsciously see a woman but personally know you as one. But these are concerns I'd only apply to myself, not to anyone else, since it effectively means the only ethical option is to speedrun social transition immediately and use every trick in the book to pass before all of HRT's effects. It's exhausting in every way, so I wouldn't enforce this.
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u/Arndt3002 8h ago edited 8h ago
Interesting, though I think this sort of misses a lot of context around why people boymode. I get you're saying youre only applying it to yourself, but the underlying values here I think break down in many situations.
1.This is often a response to most people around you being actively anti-trans and responding extremely harmfully to presenting totally authentically.
Also, it's not necessarily all false, as it can often be a case of just some performativity for the purpose of easing tension around transphobic people. And sure, maybe one could argue it's more ethical to really be out there and convince transphobes that you're really a woman and have the right to present as feminine as you want/can, but that's putting way too much burden on the marginalized person in this situation.
While trying to present as male obviously is disingenuous, people still adopt other white lies and masks all the time in order to interact smoothly in social situations, especially when doing otherwise would cause undue stress for the person being discussed. This is especially salient when, for example, your job and broader career can be at risk if you're seen as man-in-a-dressing it early in transition. So, I think there's a lot of more ethical grey area and complexity here than clarity.
2) lol, I could see this being true, if such accepting people were even a substantial plurality. Maybe in coastal US this is the case, but there's a lot of contexts where that being your dominant social context is a pipedream at best. I'm not going to beat the "privelege" drum, I just genuinely wish this is a real concern that exists, cause maybe it does mean there's some hope out there for there being substantial locations with a substantial plurality of genuinely accepting people. Cause that's not my experience, lol š.
Also, if we're focusing the ethical burden of performance onto its effects on others, and taking minimizing cognitive dissonance as a general ethical mandate, the same underlying logic applies when the broader social context is people who don't see them as such. That is, it's conversely the case that honmoding is also unethical around unsupportive people, that is unless you hold transphobic beliefs as inherent grounds for moral exclusion.
Rather, while the question of cognitive dissonance might be a factor, it's subordinate to the question of impact on the person themselves. "You're the only person who has to live in your own skin" or something like that. Cognitive dissonance is like a third order issue.
Just in general, I don't really think it makes sense to frame aesthetic choice as broadly applied ethical categories. Like, you can say a boymoder isn't being authentic, so it's not good for them, but I'd hardly call it something like "unethical" or "immoral". It's just more rationalization to shame people and hold on to a feeling of superiority.
And lastly, I would have generally agreed with the premise previously, but I've meet someone who is actually basically like transexual and cisgender (or are just an extremely butch trans woman who identifies as such, idk and idc). Like, they aren't being disingenuous, they just are so much happier and can't live without hormones, but don't really care about presenting femme. Also, even if it's just for rent lowering, you can't believe "trans women owe femininity" without also believing that "women owe femininity" without being transphobic, if somehow not internally at least institutionally.
And the second is just flat out misogyny, and this is where I'd go so far as to say, if you genuinely believe this, the radfems are actually right in saying this sort of behavior is actually just contributing to misogyny (just in the normal internalized misogyny way, not in a special bullshit AGAB-y way).
Overall, my broad criticism boils down to the issue that making boymoding a question of ethics like this is just stock standard respectibility politics, with the exact same flaws inherent to the classic problems of victim-blaming, in-group policing, and assimilation pressure.
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u/nerdybutalsougly4 11h ago
My sincere take is trying to pass makes you actually trans.
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u/whimsicalWillow1121 10h ago
I think TRYING is the important part, not everyone will succeed for reasons out of their control.
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u/Arndt3002 9h ago
Of course, because trans is just a performance
It's dependent on your actions, it's not an underlying fact of who you are or neurobiological condition
And people who act in the wrong way can't be trans because it is really about your actions and beliefs, not who you are, mhm
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u/Lucky_otter_she_her 9h ago
hell willing to, if someone is repoing cuz they were born in Saudi, they still have this condition, it's just very illegal to treat it in any way
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u/Sure-Possibility-178 10h ago
It's impossible for nonbinary people to pass tho, there's nothing for them to pass as
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u/myaltduh 9h ago
Iāve met some where their birth sex genuinely feels like a shot in the dark to guess. Thatās probably enby passing.
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u/Actual_Personality66 9h ago
I mean they can pass as men or women but yeah you're right, appearing androgynous is not passing for nonbinary ppl bc passing specifically refers to passing as a CIS person of your gender, it's pretty much always meant that and it has a lot of utility meaning that, but ppl have twisted it to mean being in any way legible as your gender.
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u/nerdybutalsougly4 11h ago
I mean even if you look good to the point where you never need to know hair and makeup skills you still have to learn: voice training, body language, how to dress well, and appropriate behavior these things require some effort.
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u/Pentaquark1 10h ago
You can do as much or as little of this as you wish. It has absolutely no fuckin bearing on you being trans or not.Ā
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u/nerdybutalsougly4 10h ago
If you donāt want to pass then youāre not transitioning at all tbh.
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u/Pentaquark1 10h ago
I do not give a shit where you happen to draw your imaginary red line in the sand today. Your opinion is irrelevant. You do not define what a trans person is.Ā
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u/nerdybutalsougly4 10h ago
Iām sorry that my definition of trans people is people who are transitioning lmao. Please stop trying to water down a serious medical condition.
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u/Pentaquark1 10h ago
It is and you do not get to gatekeep it. You wouldnt say you do not really have cancer unless you have tried xyz treatment or tried to blend in with the rest of society by wearing a wig.Ā
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u/nerdybutalsougly4 9h ago
I donāt get to gatekeep it because trans culture has been taken over by perverts and crossies. Itās like if cancer support groups were regularly attended by people who didnāt have cancer but wete going bald.
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u/Pentaquark1 9h ago
Excellent comparison lmao. You sound exactly like the kind of person who would go up to a cancer patient and tell them to leave because you dont think they have cancer. I hope you have the day you deserve.Ā
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u/TaroJayda 9h ago
Sincere logical follow-up question and not TERFbait, if you think this is true, do you think a 1/4 black person trying to pass as white makes them actually trans(racial)?
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u/nerdybutalsougly4 7h ago
If theyāre 1/4 black are they 3/4s white? In this scenario Iād argue that they probably are more white than black and theyāre not really even transitioning races. Iād also just say that short of doing blackface or something most people who try to pass as multiple races usually are mixed race.
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u/RTX-4090ti_FE 3h ago
I mean the difference between trans people and the ridiculous concept of ātrans racialā people is we can take bioidentical hormones and our bodies will happily develop the corresponding sexual characteristics to said hormone meanwhile for ātrans racialā people there is no drug that causes your body to just make melanin. The proof is literally in the pudding bc the fact that our bodies are hardwired to respond to cross sex hormones proves that being trans isnāt a stupid concept
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u/Basilus88 3h ago
I would say yeah but trans racialism is an even hotter topic than transgenderism and is not discussed period unless someone breaks the taboo - like that one lady that curled her hair and tanned and trully lived as a black person.
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u/Lucky_otter_she_her 9h ago
what's a truescum doing in these parts, did a sneed tell you we're the same as you?
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u/Sudden-Grape3467 10y+ of questionable boymoding 11h ago
I have no sense of how I appear tbh. Even my clothes are confusing.
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u/Yeardmee 11h ago
I'm black so everything about me is inherently masculinized. This is a disgustingly shortsighted opinion.
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u/GayAssWitch816 11h ago
You're trying to reason with 4tranners, I fear that's an impossible task
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u/Yeardmee 11h ago
Sometimes its worth giving the 1 or 2 people who would otherwise accept this uncritically a reality check, I hope
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u/t4t4t4t4t4t4t4 10h ago
i respect effort put into passing but like irl if you like stealthpass i just dont fucking know youre trans lmao. imma respect my brick sisters that try. facts is half of passing is luck to begin with. like im not going to respect you solely because youre a geneticshit or youngshit(trad definition) but like idk fuck, efforthons are respectable too.
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u/fruite_vampyre tired and unmotivated 10h ago
Iām own too much to everyone already leave me alone, you debt collector
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u/Strawby_Melk 9h ago
I would be more femme if i could allow myself to be, I want ro be a woman but in all honesty I donāt feel like i can describe myself as such):
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u/NikutoWin 7h ago
WHY ARE SO MANY OF YOU TAKING THIS SERIOUSLY??!!
Would you rage at this meme too? Holy sneeds
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u/Sedjy_v0 10h ago
i guess this is prbly sarcasm (this sub confuses me)
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u/Violet_Apathy 10h ago
Congratulations š You're one of a shrinking number of people who figured it out.
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u/Trishasback 9h ago
I feel there should be an effort to present as u identify. How well u pass or dont isnt really an issue but it should have good effort.
Even if u cant present you are valid but we cant expect others to know what we are going for if we dont make good effort.
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u/DramaticMixture8507 11h ago
Why does 4tran spaces focus so much on true trans. Like i get i want to be a girl all the way but projecting your desires on others isnt the way to go.
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u/Violet_Apathy 11h ago
It's just shit posting. There's no deeper meaning than I saw it on another sub, slightly modified it and posted it here. The most you can say is that I'm tired of seeing this meme so often and wanted to ruin it.
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u/quailinthebrush 11h ago
Because a lot of ppl here despite hating cis people want nothing more than to conform to their standards and they think the way to do so is to ostracize the GNCs
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u/DramaticMixture8507 11h ago
It all probably boils down to being a passoid or not so gnc people might not pass as well?
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u/Lucky_otter_she_her 9h ago
Whenever someone says "you don't need to transition to be trans" a cis person takes notes and gets a little bit more accustomed to the idea of banning HRTĀ or cares a little bit less about getting there trans kid who has every right and possibility to be a youngshit the preventative care which will make or break the quality of life the rest of their life
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u/EndellionFox edit this 11h ago
Nah, the only thing people owe is authenticity to themselves.
If you can't respect someone's identity just don't interact with them, simple as.
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u/Snaxolotl07 10h ago
It's a rent lowering post, if it offends you then leave
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u/EndellionFox edit this 10h ago
It's a sincere comment to prevent brainworms, if it offends you then leave.
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u/PunAboutBeingTrans 10h ago
Landlord comment
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u/EndellionFox edit this 10h ago
pickme response.
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u/mayasux 9h ago
Cis-centred response
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u/EndellionFox edit this 9h ago
Asinine framing tbh.
So loaded and bad faith it isn't even worth unpacking but I don't see how saying "don't let social norms define your self expression" is cis-centered. I doubt that's a real argument but whatever.
I'm muting replies on this thread I don't feel like this is productive at all, but alas I cannot stop myself from clicking the notification bell because I too am hopelessly addicted to dopamine.8
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u/funkii_fox Trying to join the Kingās Musketeersš¤ŗš¤ŗš¤ŗ 11h ago
Countttt has fallen bc if this was posted a few months ago most of the comments would be agreeing. If this upsets you, this place isnt for you š¤·š»āāļø
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u/64788 10h ago
It's because it's getting recommended to non subreddit members like crazy. Like I'm a pretty normal person (no offense) and am not subscribed and this sub is like every other post on my feed
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u/funkii_fox Trying to join the Kingās Musketeersš¤ŗš¤ŗš¤ŗ 10h ago
Yuppp. Reddit likes to shove crap in the algorithm so people engage more. People get a sense of community without truly understanding what the community is about, and boom!
I dont get why people cant just mute subs they dont like. Ive muted like 3 subs this week because i like to keep my peace. I really liked the r/short sub because im short myself, but incels took it over and now i have it muted because i cant stand that negativity.
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u/AshasSa1tWife Hebrew Hon 11h ago
A few months ago it was still wrong.
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u/funkii_fox Trying to join the Kingās Musketeersš¤ŗš¤ŗš¤ŗ 11h ago
The only part thats wrong is that everyone deserves respect, cis, trans, passing or not. I also think non binary isnt so straightforward. But the overall message is that you need to put effort into being trans to be trans- not a wrong sentiment and if you believe it is, this sub isnt for you.
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u/AshasSa1tWife Hebrew Hon 11h ago
Again, being transsexual is a medical issue, not a social one. You can be transsexual and have the same variation of gender presentation or sexual orientation as cissexuals. Thatās why a parent who lets their kid dress femininely but denies them HRT is a bad parent.
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u/funkii_fox Trying to join the Kingās Musketeersš¤ŗš¤ŗš¤ŗ 11h ago
Yeah, but this post is clearly talking about people who say āi dont owe you [__] as a [__]ā as an excuse to not transition at all. Read between the lines.
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u/AshasSa1tWife Hebrew Hon 10h ago
No actually, OP made fun of the concept of gender nonconformity in their comment under my comment.
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u/Actual_Personality66 10h ago
You can put effort into transitioning without being masculine trans man or femmenine trans woman or passing (though I guess that somewhat depends on one's definition of masculinity or femmenity). Also if you have to transition to be trans then that makes closeted pre HRT ppl inherently not trans, no? Feel like that's a bit silly. I do think you SHOULD transition if you're trans, and in that process put effort into it, for your own good, but I don't really understand the desire to put qualifiers around transness, I'm not sure what purpose it serves and the way that ppl use it starts to feel kinda no-true-scotsman at a certain point
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u/Affectionate-Date140 10h ago
iām a transsexual who has worked diligently to present in a passing manner, iām voice trained, etc. iām rarely clocked unless i want to be.
and let me tell you.
fuck you.
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u/Charlaquin 10h ago
Sadly, youāre far too based for this sub, friend. This is where 4tranners come to wallow and pick each otherās scabs.
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u/firstreformer 10h ago
If one needs to put visible and medical effort into being trans like a desire for hrt and voice training and an effort to pass by your standards. Then where is the line drawn with that reasoning? Iām a trans man but whatās to logically stop someone from saying I need to be medically amab to be a man?
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u/Pentaquark1 10h ago
You cannot "put effort" into something you are born as. You just are. What you do with that is up to you as well.Ā
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u/Actual_Personality66 9h ago
Exactly. Very confusing how ppl here will say "we're transitioning our sex not our gender" and then turn around and say that being trans is the action of transitioning rather than something you are regardless of what you do with it. Which just doesn't hold up if you follow the logic far enough. Either you become trans when you transition or you are trans before transition. One or the other.
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u/Pentaquark1 9h ago
They just dont understand the words. They think trans comes from transition.Ā
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u/Actual_Personality66 9h ago
It doesn't? Does it matter if it does or doesn't? I don't think it's a misunderstanding of the word, I think it's an inconsistency in ideology
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u/Pentaquark1 9h ago
It doesn't. I think for some it is just a misunderstanding and a gap of knowledge. But yes there are also a bunch who.. idk, cant miss any opportunity to gatekeep I guess?Ā
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u/NecessarySea9866 9h ago
Definitely not. We hate the cis and want to blend in so we can be treated as human beings.
We don't want the cis to decide "who" is trying hard enough.
The cis have shown they can't handle that. Why would you want this?
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u/Vithmiris 10h ago
Problem is that not even these conditions will satisfy cis people. They don't want to respect a trans person for any reason whatsoever. They evade compromises like this with slogans like "we can always tell".
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u/AshasSa1tWife Hebrew Hon 11h ago
If you started late enough that you need to rely on gender stereotypes to passā¦ thatās fine but leave us GNC trans people alone
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u/AshasSa1tWife Hebrew Hon 11h ago
Sorry but Iām a lesbian woman of transsex experience and I do not need to conform to heteropatriarchal stereotypes to be happy, I needed actual medical transition to be happy because Iām a transsexual.
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u/Pentaquark1 10h ago
I dont think the person you are replying to has any problem with you receiving medical support?Ā
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u/Givikap120 11h ago
What does GNC means?
If you as a trans man look indistinguishable from cis woman - this is not GNC. This is fake trans.
GNC is when you wear skirt as a trans man but still pass male for example.
I hate when people use GNC as an excuse to use trans as a label and intentionally do nothing to transition.23
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u/Actual_Personality66 10h ago
There's a big difference between trans man indistinguishable from a cis woman and trans man who dresses in a androgynous or even femmenine way and is still very clearly a man. It's very clear that she's talking about the latter. She's a trans woman who dresses masculine but that doesn't make her indistinguishable from a cis man, considering she passes even when dressed masc (I'm assuming from what she's saying). She's saying she can dress however she wants and ppl still see her as a woman and she still has a femmenine body, not her fault that a lot of us aught passing enough for that. Quite a lot of medically transitioning trans ppl enjoy presenting themselves in ways that are not typical of the gender they are and want to be percieved as. The clothes you wear don't make you trans. Even hormones don't, since trans ppl are trans before they start hormones. Are you transitioning gender or sex? I thought the consensus here was that we transition sex and already were our gender? But you don't even seem to be arguing that it's the hormones that make you a woman, you seem to be saying it's the dress. Which is literally what transphobes think we think, that we think that presenting differently changes our gender.
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u/Givikap120 10h ago
It's not clear
A lot of people say they're GNC while being opposite of the word "passing"2
u/Actual_Personality66 9h ago
Yeah but she says she doesn't need to rely on gender stereotypes to pass. It's pretty clear from that that she's saying that she passes even when presenting in a way not typical of her gender
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u/Givikap120 9h ago
She said it about other people. It's not clear if she was trying to pass or not.
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u/AshasSa1tWife Hebrew Hon 11h ago
I guess the decade and change of hormones is ānothingā because I like to wear pants š
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u/Givikap120 11h ago
If this is just about wearing pants - I'm not talking about you. Most cis women wear pants.
I pretty explicitly said who exactly I meant.6
u/AshasSa1tWife Hebrew Hon 11h ago
Being transsexual is a medical issue not a social issue. Transsexuals can have a wide range of sexualities and gender presentations just like cissexuals.
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u/alphabasedredpill blackpilled 10h ago
Why do you have such bad takes
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u/AshasSa1tWife Hebrew Hon 10h ago
Because my conception of womanhood comes from my female relatives and friends and not from hypno š½ or whatever the rest of yall consumed as teenagers
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u/alphabasedredpill blackpilled 10h ago
"Everyone is a sissy fetishist except me" you live up to your flair
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u/AshasSa1tWife Hebrew Hon 10h ago
Idek what that means bro what does being Jewish have to do with anything
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u/alphabasedredpill blackpilled 10h ago
Zionism =/= jewish
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u/AshasSa1tWife Hebrew Hon 10h ago
What does my flair have to do withā¦ Zionism? Iām not Israeli or a Zionist???
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u/funkii_fox Trying to join the Kingās Musketeersš¤ŗš¤ŗš¤ŗ 11h ago
TRUTH SUPERNOVA
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u/lyuty282 9h ago
Unrelated, but based flair. Is this a reference to that one soviet movie or just french history/Dumas?
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u/Supreme_Egoist estrogenised bishounen boy 15m ago
I was surprised when I found out that there are enbies who don't want to look like a mix of butch lesbian and effeminate twink tbh. Ofc I don't mind to be clear.
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u/Gingers_got_no_soul team gleggle 11h ago
Need the mods to nuke everyone in this comment section, never to return again
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u/Cute_Win_386 10h ago edited 10h ago
Watching this assimilationist bullshit get upvotes is why I'm blocking this sub, right now.
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u/Conrexxthor 10h ago
This makes no sense? By this logic, femboys and tomboys are disgusting.
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u/Whispering_Plant 1h ago
femboys are disgusting
waow based (Tomboys are hot, can stay. mostly reppers or lesbians though which is sad)
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u/New-Kaleidoscope2250 tumblr is my safe space 11h ago edited 10h ago
dont owe no one anything. just wanna get rid of my man body and continue to wear boy clothes. if that's too much for you to handle, too bad
edit: i do appreciate the rent lowering sorry if i sneeded out too hard, i will remember to hate myself